What is your excuse for killing animals?

[Meed]

I'm not sure that analogy is legitimate. People generally eat steak because they enjoy to eat it, and answering a question about why you kill animals by pointing out that you enjoy the taste of their flesh is a totally legitimate answer.

You misunderstand -- I agree with that. Those "because I like the taste" responses are not what I was talking about. Since they answer the question posed by the OP they're fine, even if they don't offer much in the way of substance.

Here are a couple examples of what I was referring to:

Just so you all know...

I will be hunting a block in the local water supply catchment area in a couple of weeks time. I will be shooting everything I see - deer, goats, pigs. I won't be using any restraint.

It is a pest removal exercise. I won a ballot to get access to the block. I will slice off the nicer parts of any healthy animals I shoot, and take them home for the freezer.

A couple of weeks after that, I will be hunting fallow deer on private property. I fully expect to get one or possibly two depending on the weather and the animals moods.

A week or so after that, duck season starts...

I ended up killing 10 mice in 3 days! This morning the trap was empty. I hope I got them all. I didn't eat any of them, but in hindsight I should have saved them for use as turtle bait. I'm putting out some hooks to try and catch some snapping turtles this weekend. I plan to make some tasty soup. I'll have to use some beef hearts or liver.

 

[Marcus]

I'm late to this thread, and guess it'll be a one-time visit anyway.

As a vegetarian, I regularly get asked why I don't eat meat. I've given up on explaining my reasons (ethical and environmental, mostly), and avoid the discussion. Because generally it ends like this thread here.

Oh, and if people keep going even though I made it clear that this is my choice and they can make their own, I usually just mention that vegetarianism shows a positive correlation to intelligence (BMJ. 2007 Feb 3;334(7587):245.) and a negative one to diseases like obesity (BMJ. 1996 Sep 28;313(7060):816-7.) and type 2 diabetes (Diabetes Care. 2009 May;32(5):791-6). You can interpret that as either "I made my choice, and I think it is the rationally and ethically correct one" or "You're fat and stupid, leave me alone".

I am curious, since you mentioned ethical reasons. Don't you feel guilty killing innocent plants to sustain yourself? They are living organisms, after all. Assuming you're not a frutarian.

 

[Meed]

It's all about respect for our fellow creatures. Eating another being is the highest expression of respect. It says, "I think so highly of you, that I want you to become a part of me." Vegetarians who disagree and are angered by my position should take solace in the fact that I have no respect for them.

I hope you don't have respect for any humans if it'll lead to cannibalism.

I respect the fish that I hunt and eat. I don't think factory farms are respectful. The living conditions are both awful and lifelong. Personally, it's not the killing that bothers me.

I think it's the same reason it's considered okay for a dog to be "put to sleep", but abusing pet dogs or keeping them intolerable living conditions is illegal and generally considered immoral.

 

[Morrigan]

I can see why that might put people on the defensive, but this is a philosophy forum and it's a philosophical question. It doesn't seem inappropriate to me. Certainly not to the point that it warrants trolling.

A philosophical question might have been, "Is it ethical to kill animals for food if it's not necessary to survival?". On the other hand, "What is your excuse for killing animals?" isn't a philosophical question; in fact, it's a loaded question because it already assumes the premise: "killing animals is wrong, therefore you require an excuse to do it".

 

[RenaissanceBiker]

To clarify/repeat myself: My comments were an example of what I will tell people who keep asking me to explain my dietary habits even after I have made it clear that I'm not interested in doing so. I do not start insulting people because of their diet, but I am really, really tired of having to justify what I consider a correct decision on average once a week. That gets old after the first five years.

Yeah, I imagine it would. It's like when someone asks me if I play golf. When I tell them I don't, they say I should try it. Well, I have tried it. I hated it. I never played a game of golf where I ended up more relaxed than when I started. I never played a game of golf that I didn't wish I had my shotgun. I tell people that and about a third of the time, someone says, "You should come play with us. We have fun!" Right, can I bring my shotgun?

 

[Meed]

It could have been less provocatively worded, but at least it's a philosophical position that led to a discussion. "I need no excuse" is a legitimate response. "it's a loaded question because it already assumes the premise: 'killing animals is wrong, therefore you require an excuse to do it'." is a legitimate response. Trolling is not.

 

[tsig]

It could have been less provocatively worded, but at least it's a philosophical position that led to a discussion. "I need no excuse" is a legitimate response. "it's a loaded question because it already assumes the premise: 'killing animals is wrong, therefore you require an excuse to do it'." is a legitimate response. Trolling is not.

Then you really ought to stop doing it with this constant repetition of concern.

 

[Drudgewire]

It could have been less provocatively worded, but at least it's a philosophical position that led to a discussion. "I need no excuse" is a legitimate response. "it's a loaded question because it already assumes the premise: 'killing animals is wrong, therefore you require an excuse to do it'." is a legitimate response. Trolling is not.

My issue isn't even with the wording of the OP per se. I tend to get involved once I start seeing wording like "in a civilized world," "speciesism," and putting meat eating on equal footing with cannibalism, rape and pedophelia.

At that point, the "legitimate response" line has already been crossed.

 

[DocM]

I don't think the original wording would have made any difference once you get five posts into the thread. This is simply a topic that many people get worked up on. Of course I could be wrong, and this is the one place where the discussion is not immediately taken over by trolls.

Don't you feel guilty killing innocent plants to sustain yourself?

But I don't think so.

 

[tsig]

My issue isn't even with the wording of the OP per se. I tend to get involved once I start seeing wording like "in a civilized world," "speciesism," and putting meat eating on equal footing with cannibalism, rape and pedophelia.

At that point, the "legitimate response" line has already been crossed.

From the OP:

So I’m curious to know what you critical thinkers tell yourselves so you can conciliate the Golden Rule and the evolutionary perspective and still justify an action that will directly harm something whose only fault is in context being weaker than you?


Poisoning the well from the beginning.

I quit beating my wife when she learned Kung Foo.

 

[Cain]

That's his problem. It doesn't remove yours.

And you're criticizing me for spending one sentence to call him on it. You're more pathetic than he is.

 

[mumblethrax]

I don't think the original wording would have made any difference once you get five posts into the thread. This is simply a topic that many people get worked up on. Of course I could be wrong, and this is the one place where the discussion is not immediately taken over by trolls.

I think you're right, and as evidence I submit every other thread on the topic in the history of the JREF forums.

On 'evangelical vegetarians/vegans':

I'm at lunch last year with some co-workers, scanning the menu for something I can eat. One of the IT people (nice guy, ex-military, enviably confident swagger) asks me, "So, mumbles, you're a vegan, right?" Before I can say anything more than "Y--", the office manager blurts out something about our ******* canine teeth.

I pause, stare at her for a few seconds, turn back to the other guy and say "--es, I'm vegan."

Moral of the story: I'm awesome.

 

[John Albert]

If we didn't kill them, they'd just end up killing each other anyway, or else starving to death.

The economic question sounds compelling, until you consider that a purely vegetarian diet doesn't really provide 100% of human nutritional needs.

So it boils down to a matter of extent. Maybe we shouldn't quit consuming meat altogether, but it would almost certainly be healthier and better for humanity as a whole to greatly reduce our overall meat consumption.

 

[Meed]

Then you really ought to stop doing it with this constant repetition of concern.

I'm not repeating it, I'm just responding to posts addressing mine. You really think I'm trolling?

 

[Darth Rotor]

If we didn't kill them, they'd just end up killing each other anyway, or else starving to death.

The economic question sounds compelling, until you consider that a purely vegetarian diet doesn't really provide 100% of human nutritional needs.

So it boils down to a matter of extent. Maybe we shouldn't quit consuming meat altogether, but it would almost certainly be healthier and better for humanity as a whole to greatly reduce our overall meat consumption.

Weren't you aware that this evangelical vegan line is the classic all or nothing fallacy, for dinner?

DR

 

[Prometheus]

I hope you don't have respect for any humans if it'll lead to cannibalism.

I am occasionally able to muster some alternate (albeit inferior) method of expressing my respect for others.

I respect the fish that I hunt and eat. I don't think factory farms are respectful. The living conditions are both awful and lifelong. Personally, it's not the killing that bothers me.

Hunting and killing one's own food is certainly far preferable to purchasing it shrink-wrapped at the local supermarket. But it's just not possible for everyone to do so all the time, so it's a Red Herring. I agree that factory farms are more or less disrespectful, but it's anything but a black and white issue. Have you read any of Temple Grandin's work? Or anything about the way animals are actually treated on "organic" farms? It's just that, the way I see it, the needs of my own species trump those of other species whenever they are in conflict. We don't have a way to treat all animals with full respect and provide meat to everyone who wants it, so the animals lose.

I think it's the same reason it's considered okay for a dog to be "put to sleep", but abusing pet dogs or keeping them intolerable living conditions is illegal and generally considered immoral.

Once an animal is considered a pet, it enjoys a special status; it's now a 'quasi-person' of sorts. I don't see any reason to convey this same status to either wild animals or those raised for food. The distinction is clearer in Korea, where dogs are popular both as pets and as food (They are, in fact, delicious!). Most people there would never eat a pet dog unless it were a matter of survival. The dogs that are eaten are bred and raised specifically for that purpose, and treated similarly to other livestock.

Incidentally, I'd be nearly as enraged if someone killed one of my bonsai trees as I would if they killed my pet budgie.

 

[stilicho]

Originally Posted by tsig
The OP:

"What is your excuse for killing animals"

I can see why that might put people on the defensive, but this is a philosophy forum and it's a philosophical question. It doesn't seem inappropriate to me. Certainly not to the point that it warrants trolling.

It would be a philosophical question if that's what the interpretation was. Instead, it's turned into: "What are you having for supper?"

We don't eat all the animals we kill so most of the ensuing debate (roughly 95% of all the replies) is irrelevant to the OP. And we have all the usual junk philosophy about "ascending moral arcs" and comparisons to the civil rights movement. I'm unsure the vanguard of human rights groups would appreciate their life's work being favourably compared to last night's stew.

 

[Belz...]

I am really, really tired of having to justify what I consider a correct decision on average once a week.

That's odd. Personally I don't ask people to justify their eating of anything...

But I would ask you to justify you feeding your cat this way.

 

[Belz...]

I don't think the original wording would have made any difference once you get five posts into the thread. This is simply a topic that many people get worked up on. Of course I could be wrong, and this is the one place where the discussion is not immediately taken over by trolls.



But I don't think so.

It's a legitimate question, though. If killing animals is inherently wrong, then killing plants shouldn't be much better, unless in order to deserve respect a beign must be a quadruped.

 

[Belz...]

And you're criticizing me for spending one sentence to call him on it. You're more pathetic than he is.

I was simply reminding you of your membership agreement.

You do whatever the hell you want with it.