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What is your excuse for killing animals?

Sorry, no clue. If anyone else understood it and can translate it for me, I'd be grateful.

That's twice(at least) in this thread you've asked for a translation. If your having this many comprehension problems then the JREF might be a little too advanced for you.
 
Cain, seriously, you're digging your own hole, here.

Attack the argument, remember ? I seem to remember this being some sort of a rule, here.

Until you put down the pom-poms it will be difficult for me to take you seriously. I supported my claim by attacking the argument, you simply chose to omit that sentence... after, of course, you ignored the reason behind the dispute -- Herzeblut attacking an argument of his own invention rather than anything I said.
 
That's twice(at least) in this thread you've asked for a translation. If your having this many comprehension problems then the JREF might be a little too advanced for you.

You'll notice I've had no trouble understanding anyone but Cienanos. If you think you understand what he's saying then, as I said earlier, then please translate for the rest of us.

I assume you do understand him, because otherwise this would be dishonest trolling on your part.

I plugged it into this english to clueless translator for you.


I see the disconnect now.

Sorry, your point is no clearer.
 
I also guess most people here believe in evolution… meaning they believe that there is nothing really special about the human race except that through non-random survival of randomly varying replicators we ended up developing skills that allowed us to become the dominant species in our ecosystem.


Nothing special about the human race? Of course there's something special about the human race. I'm part of it!
 
I haven't posted much in the thread, but I'll be honest, the "mmm, steak" style trolling that predictably pervades these types of threads does tend to get to me. It's not that meat eating offends me.. Most of my best friends eat meat, and I'm never preachy or antagonistic toward them. I rarely even think about it. But that so many deliberately troll simply for the sake of offending those with different moral convictions or those who's dietary choices are motivated by compassion toward animals always comes off as disgusting to me. It'd be like if I went into a debate over the morality of abortion to say "I love killing fetuses!" Even though I have no moral objection to abortion, I could never see myself doing something like that.

The carnivore support group poster was actually pretty funny though. :)



I'm not sure that analogy is legitimate. People generally eat steak because they enjoy to eat it, and answering a question about why you kill animals by pointing out that you enjoy the taste of their flesh is a totally legitimate answer. In fact, it articulates a point of morality because it indicates that your justification for killing animals is for your own nourishment, and presumably therefore that you won't kill animals for sport or sheer cruelty.

In contrast, I've never in my life come across anyone who actually enjoyed abortion (one of my favourite points to make in an abortion debate is to ridicule the entire notion of being "pro-abortion" as absurd), thus I fail to see how "I like having abortions" could possibly be a legitimate answer to asking why people have them.

Maybe you just need to grasp the fact that many people get great enjoyment from consuming the flesh of dead animals.
 
You'll notice I've had no trouble understanding anyone but Cienanos. If you think you understand what he's saying then, as I said earlier, then please translate for the rest of us.

I assume you do understand him, because otherwise this would be dishonest trolling on your part.



Sorry, your point is no clearer.

Ever ready with an insult I see.

Well I'll try to help anyway:

cienanos
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Originally Posted by Kevin_Lowe View Post
Well, I understood that bit at least. What's your evidence for the claim that animals are not self-aware?

How about we take turns? I'll go first. Here's one piece of evidence that supports the position animals are not self-aware.

(Keeping in mind that we've established "self-aware" precludes "morality.")

Hominid Dietary Selection Before Fire by Ann Brower Stahl :

Quote:
Control of fire was apparently acquired rather late in the course of hominid evolution. It is therefore necessary, in the study of dietary selection by early hominids, to consider the range of plants that would have proven inedible without cooking. Some plants contain toxins or digestibility-reducing compounds, and some plant constituents are indigestible. Cooking mitigates the impact of toxins and renders complex carbohydrates more digestible. Plant foods high in cellulose and/or starch are not readily digestible uncooked, and these constituents reduce the digestibility of other nutrients. Since nutrient intake is limited by the amount of food that can be processed per unit time, non-fire-using hominids should have attempted to increase nutrient intake by minimizing intake of these carbohydrates. Unlike animal sources of protein, plant materials generally lack a full complement of amino acids, and a variety of such materials must be ingested to obtain a balance of essential amino acids. Leaves and legumes, both possible sources of essential amino acids, may be ruled out as major suppliers of them for non-fire-using hominids-leaves because of their cellulose content and legumes because of their high frequency of toxic compounds. The limitations on the availability of plant protein strengthen the inference that some animal protein was ingested by early hominids on a regular basis. A ranking of plant parts as potential foodstuffs for non-fire-using hominids is proposed. When considered in conjunction with ecological factors, such a ranking should be helpful in generating models of hominid dietary selection before fire.
This behavior, is it moral-based, or survival-based?

What's your evidence for the claim that animals are self-aware?






First he posted a quote, then he asked you a question about it.

I would think that anyone with the ability to understand whole paragraphs would have no problem with this.
 
It's all about respect for our fellow creatures. Eating another being is the highest expression of respect. It says, "I think so highly of you, that I want you to become a part of me." Vegetarians who disagree and are angered by my position should take solace in the fact that I have no respect for them. ;)
 
It's all about respect for our fellow creatures. Eating another being is the highest expression of respect. It says, "I think so highly of you, that I want you to become a part of me." Vegetarians who disagree and are angered by my position should take solace in the fact that I have no respect for them. ;)

Which is a good thing, by the way. Cause that means they're not worthy of being eaten by you.
 
You'll notice I've had no trouble understanding anyone but Cienanos. If you think you understand what he's saying then, as I said earlier, then please translate for the rest of us.

I assume you do understand him, because otherwise this would be dishonest trolling on your part.



Sorry, your point is no clearer.



I made a woopsie earlier. I meant to say "precedes" -- NOT "precludes." My fault. :o
 
Until you put down the pom-poms it will be difficult for me to take you seriously. I supported my claim by attacking the argument, you simply chose to omit that sentence... after, of course, you ignored the reason behind the dispute -- Herzeblut attacking an argument of his own invention rather than anything I said.

That's his problem. It doesn't remove yours.
 
I'm late to this thread, and guess it'll be a one-time visit anyway.

As a vegetarian, I regularly get asked why I don't eat meat. I've given up on explaining my reasons (ethical and environmental, mostly), and avoid the discussion. Because generally it ends like this thread here.

Oh, and if people keep going even though I made it clear that this is my choice and they can make their own, I usually just mention that vegetarianism shows a positive correlation to intelligence (BMJ. 2007 Feb 3;334(7587):245.) and a negative one to diseases like obesity (BMJ. 1996 Sep 28;313(7060):816-7.) and type 2 diabetes (Diabetes Care. 2009 May;32(5):791-6). You can interpret that as either "I made my choice, and I think it is the rationally and ethically correct one" or "You're fat and stupid, leave me alone".
 
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As a vegetarian, I regularly get asked why I don't eat meat.



This I find odd. Actually I find this entire thread odd. I honestly don't understand why anyone is interested in the reason behind anyone else's diet. I couldn't care less why you're a vegetarian, and I wouldn't expect you to care why I eat meat. Likewise I couldn't care less why my friends really like curry, and they don't give a fig for why I don't like it.

It's simply enough to know what people do and don't like to eat and drink, so that you can cater for them. No one needs to justify their diet, IMHO.

I can't believe the debate can generate such a long thread!
 
DocM said:
I'm late to this thread, and guess it'll be a one-time visit anyway.

As a vegetarian, I regularly get asked why I don't eat meat. I've given up on explaining my reasons (ethical and environmental, mostly), and avoid the discussion. Because generally it ends like this thread here.

Oh, and if people keep going even though I made it clear that this is my choice and they can make their own, I usually just mention that vegetarianism shows a positive correlation to intelligence (BMJ. 2007 Feb 3;334(7587):245.) and a negative one to diseases like obesity (BMJ. 1996 Sep 28;313(7060):816-7.) and type 2 diabetes (Diabetes Care. 2009 May;32(5):791-6). You can interpret that as either "I made my choice, and I think it is the rationally and ethically correct one" or "You're fat and stupid, leave me alone".
In order to be intelligent you need some fat ;)

Seriously, being a vegetarian or vegan is your choice. As long as you don't knock my choice of beign a carnivore, we'll be fine.
 
This I find odd. Actually I find this entire thread odd. I honestly don't understand why anyone is interested in the reason behind anyone else's diet. I couldn't care less why you're a vegetarian, and I wouldn't expect you to care why I eat meat. Likewise I couldn't care less why my friends really like curry, and they don't give a fig for why I don't like it.

It's simply enough to know what people do and don't like to eat and drink, so that you can cater for them. No one needs to justify their diet, IMHO.

I can't believe the debate can generate such a long thread!

so you think there is no moral question to at least be discussed on this topic? what about deliberately and needlessly cruel (whether for taste, tradition, cost or sport) forms of animal consumption?

Personally, I acknowledge eating meat as a moral failing in myself, but take some degree of comfort from many of the arguments raised by meat eaters in this thread (most if not all of which I had already considered but perhaps not as in depth).

I will also not deliberately kill any animal, including insects. If an animal were to be threatening me with injury or death, that changes fast but for example I wouldn't kill a cat that was intent on scratching me a lot (but I'd probably hurt it to discourage it if I couldn't simply avoid it), but I will kill wasps and parasites such as mosquitos, fleas and ticks on sight. I will not kill a fly that is buzzing and irritating me, for example. I don't think all of these things are completely reasoned out in my mind yet. I will attempt to avoid treading on the snails that seem to surround our house after it rains, but do not know exactly what lengths I go to to avoid that...

One thought that does trouble me is what lengths I would go to to defend an animal from harm - if I saw a group of youths burning ants with a magnifying glass, for example, I would probably keep walking, but replacing burning ants with torturing a cat/dog and I believe I would react with a high level of violence (most likely preceded by verbal warnings, but depending on the situation) and one that I would have no viable legal defense for in a court of law (why did you break both of their arms? because he was torturing a cat - I can't see that getting someone off)

ETA: Also, I'm not sure exactly where I stand on trying to persuade others from their respective positions on the above - including when I might politely offer my argument against their action (i.e. if I went vegetarian and someone was eating factory farmed meat), or when I might verbally attack someone for their position (torturing flies or other 'lesser' creatures) and as I've said above, when I might use violence to prevent suffering or death of an animal...but certainly I prefer meat eaters to evangelical vegetarians/vegans :P
 
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What a fat, stupid, meat eater might look like.

To clarify/repeat myself: My comments were an example of what I will tell people who keep asking me to explain my dietary habits even after I have made it clear that I'm not interested in doing so. I do not start insulting people because of their diet, but I am really, really tired of having to justify what I consider a correct decision on average once a week. That gets old after the first five years.
 
The OP:

"What is your excuse for killing animals"

I can see why that might put people on the defensive, but this is a philosophy forum and it's a philosophical question. It doesn't seem inappropriate to me. Certainly not to the point that it warrants trolling.
 

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