What is your excuse for killing animals?

[Drudgewire]

Vitamin B12, vitamin D, iron, proteins, calcium, are all obtainable without animal products, but not easily so. Special planning must be taken into account, and in the vegan cases supplements must even be taken.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism#Specific_nutrients

Also, "vegetarians are healthier than omnivores on average" is a misnomer because all fast-food eaters are thrown into the mix. Those who follow a good diet plan are not going to be less healthy because they include meat on their menu.

And on the purely anecdotal side of things despite challenging several vegetarians to find more, so far they've only found me one person who ate no meat and lived to be 100.

 

[Marcus]

Also, "vegetarians are healthier than omnivores on average" is a misnomer because all fast-food eaters are thrown into the mix. Those who follow a good diet plan are not going to be less healthy because they include meat on their menu.

And on the purely anecdotal side of things despite challenging several vegetarians to find more, so far they've only found me one person who ate no meat and lived to be 100.

This is also anecdotal, but there are a lot of centenarians in my family, and the common denominator (aside from the luck of the genetic draw) seems to be moderation in all things. Removing meat completely from ones diet would not qualify as moderation in my opinion, nor would over consumption.

 

[Marcus]

You'd be committing abortion when you remove the seeds and fruits.

That's okay, frutarians are pro-choice.

 

[Drudgewire]

Removing meat completely from ones diet would not qualify as moderation in my opinion, nor would over consumption.

That's exactly what I'm saying. For the most part, nutritionists include meat in a balanced diet unless they're specifically targeting a vegetarian/vegan clientele. And you won't find ANY nutritionists who tell you to eat nothing but red meat. The most healthy diets find the proper balance.

I did get a kick out of my vegan ex when she'd tell me with proper supplements she could completely eliminate meat from her diet and in the next breath tell me about the natural alternatives to medicine that "big pharma" was suppressing. I guess only pills are OK as long as there's a picture of a plant on the bottle.

 

[ingoa]

Back in the Garden, before the Fall, everything ate fruits and nuts and grass, no animals were harmed by ingestion, nor harmed each other.
Lions and lambs were the best of pals.

Eating fruits and nuts is abortion. This cannot be right!

ETA: Too late... As always...

I am a semi vegetarian. I only eat animals who are vegetarians.

(stolen fom somebody...)

 

[Morrigan]

I did get a kick out of my vegan ex when she'd tell me with proper supplements she could completely eliminate meat from her diet and in the next breath tell me about the natural alternatives to medicine that "big pharma" was suppressing. I guess only pills are OK as long as there's a picture of a plant on the bottle.

Hahaha, that's beautiful irony right there.

 

[Frank Merton]

Cotton harvesting doesn't harm the plant, it just removes the boll. Likewise, there are plenty of foods to be had without harming any plants, fruit ,nuts, beans, tomatoes and cucumbers, olive oil, ect. There is a large group of people who practice this, they are called frutarians. Not that I am one, I'm an omnivore myself, I just find the moral arguments for vegetarainism no more compelling.

I think we all know that. To see if from a Jainist perspective, I would guess that that doesn't make any difference. You still "kill" the living fibre.

For example, they also won't shave or cut their hair ir nails, considering that the hair and nails are seen by them to be alive. To us, of course, that seemse to be entirely too much, but at least it is a consistent perspective honestly derived (by the way, few Jainists really go that far).

 

[Frank Merton]

Not that I am one, I'm an omnivore myself, I just find the moral arguments for vegetarainism no more compelling.

The "compelling" moral case for not eating meat is that the animal has to suffer and die. I think suffering is the real issue here, so that one can draw a line around sentient beings. Life is nothing but a blind (albeit very complicated) chemical system--I don't think there is any thing like a spirit that inhabits all living things--so the blank prohibition on killing veggies seems to me to be a sort of confused magical thinking.

It also needs to be kept in mind that all things die anyway--death (and carnivorousness) are part of the natural system. Now I do not assert that nature equates with right, but it can still be used as a mitigating consideration when weighing various moral choices. Therefore a better emphasis is to put the weight against causing suffering, not against causing death.

 

[Frank Merton]

This is also anecdotal, but there are a lot of centenarians in my family, and the common denominator (aside from the luck of the genetic draw) seems to be moderation in all things. Removing meat completely from ones diet would not qualify as moderation in my opinion, nor would over consumption.

Moderation in all things is a hoary bit of wisdom, but one has to ask whether this also includes being moderate in one's moderation?

 

[Belz...]

The "compelling" moral case for not eating meat is that the animal has to suffer and die.

Same thing for plants, except for the suffering bit. How do you justify killing perfectly healthy plants for your consumption ? This is not a troll question, I'm being serious.

Why don't we simply treat our cattle better, instead ?

I think suffering is the real issue here, so that one can draw a line around sentient beings.

So we can eat braindead people and foetuses ?

Life is nothing but a blind (albeit very complicated) chemical system--I don't think there is any thing like a spirit that inhabits all living things--so the blank prohibition on killing veggies seems to me to be a sort of confused magical thinking.

Animals are blind chemical systems too. And so are we.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Animals are blind chemical systems too. And so are we.

So are arguments.

 

[Marcus]

The "compelling" moral case for not eating meat is that the animal has to suffer and die. I think suffering is the real issue here, so that one can draw a line around sentient beings. Life is nothing but a blind (albeit very complicated) chemical system--I don't think there is any thing like a spirit that inhabits all living things--so the blank prohibition on killing veggies seems to me to be a sort of confused magical thinking.

It also needs to be kept in mind that all things die anyway--death (and carnivorousness) are part of the natural system. Now I do not assert that nature equates with right, but it can still be used as a mitigating consideration when weighing various moral choices. Therefore a better emphasis is to put the weight against causing suffering, not against causing death.

I can pretty much agree with this. Except that I don't think that meat animals have to suffer. Yes, you can find cases where animals are mistreated. But merely being housed in high density conditions that might offend our human sensibilities does not automatically mean suffering. Cattle, for example,many times don't even encounter high density conditions until they reach the feed lot at the end of their lives. They usually enjoy that too, for the most part it's one giant feast for a few months until the end comes, quickly and painlessly. They lead happy lives for the most part, if they are unhappy they will let you know. It seems more callous to me to insist that they should never have lived in the first place.

That's interesting about the Janists, something even further out for the frutarians to aspire to.

 

[Marcus]

Moderation in all things is a hoary bit of wisdom, but one has to ask whether this also includes being moderate in one's moderation?

The usual quip is "moderation in all things including moderation" , cutesy sounding, but when you think about, it probably is good to cut loose occasionally and eat too much or drink too much, I know i do.

 

[Frank Merton]

I can pretty much agree with this. Except that I don't think that meat animals have to suffer.

This is true, but we cannot be sure, when we buy our meat from others that they haven't suffered. And, of course.if we hunt our own meat, we necessarily must cause suffering. As I said earlier, that is why many years ago my wife and I decided to forgo meat. We also think this is healthier in the long run, although this is not a sufficient basis for moral decisions.

Do veggies suffer? I think a rational person will recognize that one must be sentient to suffer, and there is no credible evidence that plants are sentient. Their responses to the environment are reflexive, they show no sign of transmitting signals that could correspond to pain or fear or nausea or grief. One need but observe mammals for awhile to draw clear conclusions that this group does indeed exhibit an ability to experience all of these (other forms of animal life are problematic here).

 

[Frank Merton]

The usual quip is "moderation in all things including moderation" , cutesy sounding, but when you think about, it probably is good to cut loose occasionally and eat too much or drink too much, I know i do.

I had more in mind the need to abstain and not be moderate about certain things, such as, say, the consumption of arsenic.

 

[Paulhoff]

It doesn't matter what you eat, you kill something, what makes plants worth less than animals, after all, all food starts with them.

Paul

 

[Frank Merton]

It doesn't matter what you eat, you kill something, what makes plants worth less than animals, after all, all food starts with them.

What things are worth is not relevant; whether or not they suffer is the point. When you kick a rock, does it experience pain? I see no reason to think that plants are significantly different.

 

[stilicho]

Bratwurst last night. I hope those pigs and steers REALLY suffered. They were delicious.

I just had a Chinese Jellyfish Salad at one of our office potlucks. It was pretty good too. I'd never had it before.

I am glad someone started this thread: What are you having for supper?

Maybe the JREF should start a Recipe Swap forum just for Kevin_Lowe.

 

[bruto]

This is true, but we cannot be sure, when we buy our meat from others that they haven't suffered. And, of course.if we hunt our own meat, we necessarily must cause suffering. As I said earlier, that is why many years ago my wife and I decided to forgo meat. We also think this is healthier in the long run, although this is not a sufficient basis for moral decisions.

Do veggies suffer? I think a rational person will recognize that one must be sentient to suffer, and there is no credible evidence that plants are sentient. Their responses to the environment are reflexive, they show no sign of transmitting signals that could correspond to pain or fear or nausea or grief. One need but observe mammals for awhile to draw clear conclusions that this group does indeed exhibit an ability to experience all of these (other forms of animal life are problematic here).

I think that's generally so, and although there are some who would suggest that such relativism amounts to no moral code at all, it seems reasonable to suggest that the amount of suffering and the degree to which it can be prevented are as important as exactly what or who does the suffering. If I were looking for a balanced and humane point of view, I think I'd be more likely to find it in someone like Renaissance Biker than in a vegan who, if we are reading them right here, would find more moral fault in using butter on your toast than in pulling the legs off a fly.

 

[Paulhoff]

What things are worth is not relevant; whether or not they suffer is the point. When you kick a rock, does it experience pain? I see no reason to think that plants are significantly different.

So, you know how cells of the plant feel, that's good, and if something doesn't feel, it is OK to kill it?

Simple fact, I need to eat to live, not my fault. I don't make all the amino acids needed by my body because my ancestors ate meat and lost the ability thru mutation to make a few of them, again not my fault. I eat meat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amino_acid

I don't show pictures of my kills or hang any on the walls, not my thing to do if I killed my own.


Paul