Moderated Iron sun with Aether batteries...

[ben m]

What's the cross section for a 171A gamma to scatter off or be absorbed by Ne VIII?

There's a coherent state within 0.03A of the Fe IX line in question---well within both the Doppler or collisional widths. It's got a lowish transition probability by spectroscopy standards (4x10^7/s), I think, but that shouldn't matter when Mozina has 10,000km of it on top of his source. "Cross section" isn't the right way to deal with it; this transition is accessible from some excited state, and that excited state's population depends on the temperature, and Mozina-land doesn't have temperatures. An insane atomic physicist would know what to do, but I don't.

 

[Reality Check]

Did you cherry pick the image to support your fantasy

Michael Mozina,
Perhaps you can explain why the first image in the SDO images gallery (the second image is the one you selected), does not have any "green line".

Did you cherry pick the image to support your fantasy*?

The first image in the gallary does have a "green area" at the 8 o'clock postion. This is about 10 times bigger than the "green line" that is in most places along the limb in the second image.

Does this place your impossible iron crust at ~70,000 km below the photosphere?
Or are you going to stick with the second image (~7,000 km).
Or are you going to stick with the helioseismology stratification layer in the plasma at ~3000 km where the convection current destroys your iron crust?
Or are you going to pick some other random number?


*A fanatsy because it violates thermodynamics, e.g see Micheal Mozina's iron crust has been debunked!
The fact that it fails many other observations (an iron crust at a temperature of > 9400 K ) and predicts absolutley nothing just makes it a joke. See the over 50 questions that Michael Mozina is incapable of answering.

 

[dafydd]

FYI I have known that the NEON and SILICON were in a highly energetic state from day one based on the SERTS data. There are just too many neon lines at too many different temperatures and intensities for them all to be related to coronal loops. Once I figured that out, everything else was a piece of cake.

Show us your work sheets,maths included.

 

[dafydd]

Why would you expect that when I've only even had access to the first images for what, a week?



Oh, I'm sure they've noticed too. I'm just not sure they have any idea what to do about that little bombshell just yet.

You will have to do the maths to win your Nobel Prize.

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

A great big cloud of neon with complete population inversion to high energy states, and doped with various other compounds... Sounds like the Steampunk Battle-moon 'Iron Sun' is armed with one hell of a big-arse laser. Charge those Aetheric batteries men, we're preparing to attack!

A

 

[Toke]

A great big cloud of neon with complete population inversion to high energy states, and doped with various other compounds... Sounds like the Steampunk Battle-moon 'Iron Sun' is armed with one hell of a big-arse laser. Charge those Aetheric batteries men, we're preparing to attack!

A

I think it sounds more like Ringworld, it give a new meaning to the term "solar powered laser".

 

[tusenfem]

No electric solar model is threatened by these images. No non electric solar model can explain them. It's as simple as that.

There is *NO* electric solar model. All of them have been debunked on the grounds of *OBSERVATIONS*.

Please, present here a concise understandable model of an electric sun. Give us the numbers and show us where the currents flow and how strong the currents are and what magnetic field these currents are producing at the Earth's orbit.

And you *WILL NOT* give this model, because you *DO NOT HAVE* this model and you will point to Birkeland and his experiments. I already went through a discussion of Birkeland before, in detail, and you had no comments whatsoever on my interpretation.

So, please, you can stop all the attacks from peeps here if you just show that you indeed have a full fledged (well medium fledged will do too) model of an electric Sun. Heck, even Juergens' stupid model is more detailed than yours.

 

[tusenfem]

Let's start with 2000Km for the neon. I'll pick up the difference in silicon.

Don't go there Sol, you will spend lots of time on doing this calculation and then MM will only say once more that that is not describing his "model."

 

[GeeMack]

Knock off the lie about your crazy conjecture somehow being Birkeland's solar model. It's not. And you repeating that lie will not make it true.

Spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam. SPAM!

Another temper tantrum, I see. Say, Michael, are you a member of that junior scientist club that brantc belongs to? You could show some of those other high school kids how a real scientist responds when he's caught repeating a lie.

 

[GeeMack]

What the hell are you talking about? I said 7200 is likely, 10,000KM max. You're off by a whole OOM!

Nope, you're wrong again. I'm sure some of these other folks understand. You're demonstrating once again that you're unqualified to do any sort of simple solar imagery analysis and grade school math.

The comment was...

So run the calculations on that highly ionized silicon plasma and show how you can see through 100,000 kilometers of it. Remember, now that you know the opacity issue is mainstream solar theory's Achilles heel, you're going to do a little math to destroy it...

I take your ignorance to mean you're working up the math to show how you can see through 100,000 kilometers of plasma. Your method is bound to be interesting. You might get Sol to help you run the numbers on this, but remember how you spit on him last time he helped you out? The decent thing to do would be to give him some real numbers to work with and not just blow him off when he comes up with some results.

Don't forget, you've got a job to do...

Now that I finally understand how to go about destroying mainstream theory, I'll start working on it. I think *THAT* little project might even motivate me to do a little math.

 

[GeeMack]

Why would you expect that when I've only even had access to the first images for what, a week?



Oh, I'm sure they've noticed too. I'm just not sure they have any idea what to do about that little bombshell just yet.

Well you'd better let them know right away! Do you suppose NASA has taken you off their spam block list yet? Maybe you should phone them instead of emailing them. Oh, dial *67 to block the caller ID.

How long do you suppose we'll have to wait to see NASA's press release on this bombshell? The STEREO program was supposed to verify your crazy conjecture almost five years ago and we haven't heard a peep out of them. Maybe they're waiting for that first photon to muscle its way up through the plasma? Maybe they're waiting for you to help them out by doing a little math? Maybe they're waiting for you to demonstrate that you're actually qualified to understand solar images before they'll take your word for it? Any way about it, it seems like you're the holdup here, Michael.

 

[GeeMack]

Michael Mozina,
Perhaps you can explain why the first image in the SDO images gallery (the second image is the one you selected), does not have any "green line".

Did you cherry pick the image to support your fantasy*?

The first image in the gallary does have a "green area" at the 8 o'clock postion. This is about 10 times bigger than the "green line" that is in most places along the limb in the second image.

Does this place your impossible iron crust at ~70,000 km below the photosphere?
Or are you going to stick with the second image (~7,000 km).
Or are you going to stick with the helioseismology stratification layer in the plasma at ~3000 km where the convection current destroys your iron crust?
Or are you going to pick some other random number?

I have some expertise in graphics creation, manipulation, and processing, so I've done some very basic analysis on these two images. Obviously there are problems with Michael's interpretation of the first one. Several problems. Well, let's go as far as to say he's just plain wrong. But since he fancies himself qualified to understand solar imagery, since he pretty much bases his entire claim on his interpretation of various satellite imagery, let's see if he can come up with some of the most glaring problems on his own. You know, before NASA puts out the press release about this bombshell, about how they stared at this image for hours and hours and suddenly had an epiphany, and in a moment of unprecedented awareness, mainstream solar physics gets destroyed! Maybe Michael can give them a heads-up and help them avoid the embarrassment of being so horribly wrong.

 

[sol invictus]

Don't go there Sol, you will spend lots of time on doing this calculation and then MM will only say once more that that is not describing his "model."

Don't worry - I'll only do so as long as I'm enjoying it. I learned something from this last episode (thanks mainly to comments from you and Ben and Zig), so it was worth it just for that.

 

[DeiRenDopa]

Michael Mozina,
Perhaps you can explain why the first image in the SDO images gallery (the second image is the one you selected), does not have any "green line".

Did you cherry pick the image to support your fantasy*?

The first image in the gallary does have a "green area" at the 8 o'clock postion. This is about 10 times bigger than the "green line" that is in most places along the limb in the second image.

Does this place your impossible iron crust at ~70,000 km below the photosphere?
Or are you going to stick with the second image (~7,000 km).
Or are you going to stick with the helioseismology stratification layer in the plasma at ~3000 km where the convection current destroys your iron crust?
Or are you going to pick some other random number?


*A fanatsy because it violates thermodynamics, e.g see Micheal Mozina's iron crust has been debunked!
The fact that it fails many other observations (an iron crust at a temperature of > 9400 K ) and predicts absolutley nothing just makes it a joke. See the over 50 questions that Michael Mozina is incapable of answering.

Perhaps not, but there's a nice ~20,000 km high active iron volcano close to the limb at ~11 o'clock.

Also, the close-to-cyan aura that lies above the limb around most of the Sun is, obviously, the xenon-lithium-bismuth plasma layer which Birkeland predicted (though the Electric Sun folk tend to think it's a rhenium-zinc-ytterbium-boron plasma). In MM's model this is created by fission-fusion reactions taking place on the iron surface (all those highly relativistic electrons, accelerated by the 10^10 V potential drop, cause nuclear chain reactions that Manuel predicted); the resulting son nuclei ablate off the iron, creating a refrigeration effect that is 10^n times more powerful than the neon refrigeration MM had previously theorised (I think MM is waiting for ben m to provide him an estimate of n, including error bars).

 

[DeiRenDopa]

There is *NO* electric solar model. All of them have been debunked on the grounds of *OBSERVATIONS*.

Please, present here a concise understandable model of an electric sun. Give us the numbers and show us where the currents flow and how strong the currents are and what magnetic field these currents are producing at the Earth's orbit.

And you *WILL NOT* give this model, because you *DO NOT HAVE* this model and you will point to Birkeland and his experiments. I already went through a discussion of Birkeland before, in detail, and you had no comments whatsoever on my interpretation.

So, please, you can stop all the attacks from peeps here if you just show that you indeed have a full fledged (well medium fledged will do too) model of an electric Sun. Heck, even Juergens' stupid model is more detailed than yours.

For lurkers interested in more details, Tom Bridgman's blog Dealing with Creationism in Astronomy has a series of entries demolishing the "Electric Sun" idea (as tusenfem has noted, there is no model, just some handwaving ideas; Tom tried mightily - as Tim Thompson did before him - to sketch a model from the vague and ambiguous statements by people most vociferously promoting this idea).

The Electric Cosmos: Solar Capacitor Model III is Tom's last attempt, and contains links to several previous ones. In a nutshell, this idea requires a rather spectacular violation of conservation of energy, or conservation of charge (or both).

Of course, having already spectacularly violated thermodynamics, to violate a few more laws should cause not even a second's pause for true believers.

 

[Dancing David]

No, actually I'm looking at features in front, inside of, and behind the photosphere. The limbs tell it all Ben. The math bunny is dead and it's never coming back. The iron lines *all* (not just one wavelength) originate underneath of the photosphere as the helium emissions, and limb darkening process demonstrates. There's simply no way the opaque math bunny is coming back from the observationally dead.

Hmm, okay, done with empirical testing are we?

 

[Dancing David]

I understand what sol did, and *IF* those conditions were applicable he'd be correct. Those conditions however are 'strawman' conditions and do not apply to this specific (or any EU oriented) solar model in any way. It also fails to jive with the SERTS spectral data. The neon glows in many ion wavelengths, and less brightly at the lowest end of energy the spectrum. Details matter folks.

You keep asserting that, and so as Sol I did I will repeat:
The surface of the photosphere is observed to be ~6000F, Sol I used the mixture you said that the neon layer had. And he obtained an opacity of 3.5 meters to the chosen wavelength.

So to repeat what he said: Which variable would you like to change? Are you saying which variable needs to change in the calculation? What proportion of ionized Neon do you suggest?

 

[Dancing David]

It represents a "mixture" of colors, primarily blue and yellow and visually demonstrates the distance between the surface of the photosphere and the point where the sun actually becomes "opaque" to the iron ion wavelengths.

Now that sounds interesting, how do you determine that? How does it show the optical depth?

 

[Dancing David]

I'm not complaining about your methods sol, just the fact you called it "Mozina 1.0" or something along those lines. You only included *PART* of the solar model in *YOUR* calculation and that number has nothing to do with an electric sun theory.

I first want to hear you folks explain the SDO image for us and specifically why the iron lines don't originate in the orange region.

Now MM, that is unfair. Sol I is being patient and you and he were going in a particular direction. He was trying to determine the opacity of a plasma that matched your description of the neon layer, as it were, if one could create such in a lab.

That is one part of the discussion, it seems very suspicious that you know demand another thing that is different.

Finsih one, move to the other.

It is YOUR claim that the the "iron lines" "originate in the orange region", so that is up to you and your burden to demonstrate how they do.

If you finsh the first exercise, I am sure Sol I would help calculate the given frequencies for the other contentions you are now making.

 

[Dancing David]

Where did the bunnies come in? We had enough with Bjarne and his cows.

It is a meme I started in the BAC Plasma Universe threads, where in BAC and many would point to a picture and say somethings like "it obviously looks like a plasma filiment that supports the PU model", but theer was no math or derivation, hence the 'It looks like a bunny, therefore it must be a bunny".

Now GeeMack is much smarter than I and his arrival at the 'bunny picture' meme is most likely his own.