Moderated Iron sun with Aether batteries...

[Michael Mozina]

Then your model is almost certainly ruled out by opacity alone. As I've shown, the only way 1000s of km of plasma might be transparent to 171A photons is if less than .000001 of the Ne is in any of the first, second, or third ionization states. Even then, I suspect it would still be opaque - but I can't check until you give me a scenario in which such a thing is physically possible.



Then you don't have a model - it's as simple as that. Just wild conjecture.

There are NO (zero, none, nada, zip) ions in a low energy state inside the photosphere. That's the standard model's problem not mine. All the neon is at *LEAST* +4 or better and any reionization necessary will occur due to current flow long before a photon gets involved.

No electric solar model is threatened by these images. No non electric solar model can explain them. It's as simple as that.

 

[Michael Mozina]

So run the calculations on that highly ionized silicon plasma and show how you can see through 100,000 kilometers of it.

What the hell are you talking about? I said 7200 is likely, 10,000KM max. You're off by a whole OOM!

 

[sol invictus]

There are NO (zero, none, nada, zip) ions in a low energy state inside the photosphere.

How do you know that, Michael?

If you're simply going to declare it by fiat, we're done - I can't calculate anything, because as far as I can tell that assertion is inconsistent with the laws of physics. It's certainly inconsistent with thermodynamics.

I'm still waiting for you to tell me how I could test this transparent completely ionized Ne plasma bunny in a lab.

 

[Michael Mozina]

How do you know that, Michael?

Because I believe what I see with my own eyes and what I see is simply not possible unless the ions are all in a highly energetic state and the current flows sustains that high energy state. It's called "process of elimination" and "postdicting a fit". You guys/gals do it all the time, so don't even think about bitching at me for that trick.

If you're simply going to declare it by fiat, we're done - I can't calculate anything, because as far as I can tell that assertion is inconsistent with the laws of physics. It's certainly inconsistent with thermodynamics.

No, it's entirely consistent (predicted) by electric sun theories where the voltages tend to be in the 10^10 range and the discharge between the sphere and the heliosphere is continuous.

I'm still waiting for you to tell me how I could test this transparent completely ionized Ne plasma bunny in a lab.

Personally I'd start right where Birkeland left off. No need to reinvent the wheel, you'll just need 21st century gear and high tech it up a bit. Please don't stick your nose up to the glass as he did. That certainly didn't improve his physical health and I highly recommend you stay well away from it while it's in "operation".

 

[GeeMack]

What the hell are you talking about? I said 7200 is likely, 10,000KM max. You're off by a whole OOM!

Nope, you're wrong again. I'm sure some of these other folks understand. You're demonstrating once again that you're unqualified to do any sort of simple solar imagery analysis and grade school math. But no need to throw a tantrum.

 

[Michael Mozina]

FYI I have known that the NEON and SILICON were in a highly energetic state from day one based on the SERTS data. There are just too many neon lines at too many different temperatures and intensities for them all to be related to coronal loops. Once I figured that out, everything else was a piece of cake.

 

[sol invictus]

Because I believe what I see with my own eyes and what I see is simply not possible unless the ions are all in a highly energetic state and the current flows sustains that high energy state. It's called "process of elimination" and "postdicting a fit". You guys/gals do it all the time, so don't even think about bitching at me for that trick.

Speak for yourself.

So just to emphasize that - you know all the Ne atoms must be at least quadruply ionized, because if not your model is wrong.

Are you aware that falsifiability is the primary characteristic that makes science science, and differentiates it from religion?

No, it's entirely consistent (predicted) by electric sun theories where the voltages tend to be in the 10^10 range and the discharge between the sphere and the heliosphere is continuous.

Now we're getting somewhere. Please clarify that.

Are you saying there is a voltage difference of around 10^10V between the (iron?) sphere and the heliosphere? If so, can I model that by taking your Ne plasma and imposing a voltage of 10^10V across some thickness of it? What thickness?

Personally I'd start right where Birkeland left off. No need to reinvent the wheel, you'll just need 21st century gear and high tech it up a bit. Please don't stick your nose up to the glass as he did. That certainly didn't improve his physical health and I highly recommend you stay well away from it while it's in "operation".

I don't know anything about Birekeland's experiment. Suppose I research it and discover that a few m, or km, of the plasma he used is opaque to 171A radiation. Would that falsify your model?

 

[Reality Check]

Where does the current from your impossible iron crust come from

I have told you sol. I believe it is mostly highly ionized neon with hydrogen and electrons running through it with oxygen and all the other solar wind items in it. All of them are *highly* ionized by the current flow from the surface crust to the heliosphere and through the neon photosphere.

First asked 27 April 2010
Michael Mozina,
This sounds like you think that the ~7200 kilometer thick plasma layer above your impossible iron crust is fully ionized (i.e. every atom in it of whatever element has been stripped of at leat 1 electron) because there is a current flowing from the crust to the photosphere and perhaps further.

Where does this current come from and how big is it?

Remember that if this current creates a charge of more than 77 Coulombs on the Sun then the Sun will explode (On the global electrostatic charge of stars).

 

[Reality Check]

FYI I have known that the NEON and SILICON were in a highly energetic state from day one based on the SERTS data.

FYI You have been deluded if you think that ALL of the IRON, SILICON, POTASSIUM, OXYGEN, ARGON, NICKEL, HELIUM, SULFUR, ZINC, MAGNESIUM, ALUMINUM, CHROMIUM. CALCIUM, COBALT, SODIUM, MANGANESE, TITANIUM, NEON and CARBON were in a highly energetic state from day one based on the SERTS data.

The SERTS data is the light emitted by the ionized IRON, SILICON, POTASSIUM, OXYGEN, ARGON, NICKEL, HELIUM, SULFUR, ZINC, MAGNESIUM, ALUMINUM, CHROMIUM. CALCIUM, COBALT, SODIUM, MANGANESE, TITANIUM, NEON and CARBON.

It says nothing about the non-ionized IRON, SILICON, POTASSIUM, OXYGEN, ARGON, NICKEL, HELIUM, SULFUR, ZINC, MAGNESIUM, ALUMINUM, CHROMIUM. CALCIUM, COBALT, SODIUM, MANGANESE, TITANIUM, NEON and CARBON.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Speak for yourself.

So just to emphasize that - you know all the Ne atoms must be at least quadruply ionized, because if not your model is wrong.

Are you aware that falsifiability is the primary characteristic that makes science science, and differentiates it from religion?

Yep. That's why I "predicted" we'd find iron lines under that "opaque" math bunny. That is also why I "predict' that if we observed the sun in Ne+3 or +4 we would observe the surface of the photosphere, not just coronal activity. Prediction and falsification is the name of the game and so far Birkeland's model is doing just fine.

Now we're getting somewhere. Please clarify that.

Are you saying there is a voltage difference of around 10^10V between the (iron?) sphere and the heliosphere?

Let me start some coffee and poke around Birkeland's material. IMO Birkeland's work is better suited to this topic. I'll round up some real numbers for you now.

If so, can I model that by taking your Ne plasma and imposing a voltage of 10^10V across some thickness of it? What thickness?

Let's start with 2000Km for the neon. I'll pick up the difference in silicon.

I don't know anything about Birekeland's experiment. Suppose I research it and discover that a few m, or km, of the plasma he used is opaque to 171A radiation. Would that falsify your model?

That *he* used? Oh, I'm sure his plasma was opaque to that wavelength. He didn't work with 10^10 voltages.

 

[ben m]

Then your model is almost certainly ruled out by opacity alone. As I've shown, the only way 1000s of km of plasma might be transparent to 171A photons is if less than .000001 of the Ne is in any of the first, second, or third ionization states. Even then, I suspect it would still be opaque - but I can't check until you give me a scenario in which such a thing is physically possible.

You'd better rule out Ne VIII too, and O IV, Al III, Na V, F IV---all of which resonantly absorb the 171.07 nm iron line. And you're not merely excluding Ne I, Ne II, Ne III at the 99.9999% level (to dodge photoionization), you'd better be excluding all other neutrals, +1 ions, and +2 ions whatsoever, at the 99.9999% level or better. Man, that's some weird plasma you're promising to cook up.

When you figure out whether that is possible, you can get to work figuring out how to simultaneously emit 6000K blackbody radiation, and to have some of that radiation re-absorbed in a vast forest of spectral lines. (Spectral lines of exactly the sort of atoms and molecules that absorb 171A light really quickly.)

 

[Michael Mozina]

You'd better rule out Ne VIII too, and O IV, Al III, Na V, F IV---all of which resonantly absorb the 171.07 nm iron line. And you're not merely excluding Ne I, Ne II, Ne III at the 99.9999% level (to dodge photoionization), you'd better be excluding all other neutrals, +1 ions, and +2 ions whatsoever, at the 99.9999% level or better. Man, that's some weird plasma you're promising to cook up.

Highly ionized plasma stew.

When you figure out whether that is possible, you can get to work figuring out how to simultaneously emit 6000K blackbody radiation, and to have some of that radiation re-absorbed in a vast forest of spectral lines. (Spectral lines of exactly the sort of atoms and molecules that absorb 171A light really quickly.)

I owe sol first. He's been patient with me today. The rest of you can wait your turn.

 

[tsig]

So you've blown away main stream solar theory by looking at a picture that you don't even understand, declaring things to be true that you can't even explain in an objective way, and here you are whining about it on an Internet forum instead of emailing those real scientists at LMSAL to tell them of your amazing discovery?

Oh, have the folks at LMSAL taken you off their spam block list, yet?

It seems he is trying to undermine conventional science by using pictures that could only be gotten by conventional science.

 

[tsig]

I have told you sol. I believe it is mostly highly ionized neon with hydrogen and electrons running through it with oxygen and all the other solar wind items in it. All of them are *highly* ionized by the current flow from the surface crust to the heliosphere and through the neon photosphere. I really don't know how to pull "better" information out of a hat. There are not many metals in the neon layer because the neon layer is evidently far higher in the atmosphere than even I realized until seeing the SDO images for the first time. That little issue blew me away and was at least another 1200 kilometers beyond my wildest dreams. I'm tickled pink, but it may cause me to rethink the numbers a bit. Suffice to say the loops provide the high energy ions and most of the heavier elements are concentrated inside the loops, evidently most of them are flowing around *way* under the neon layer. Some of the heavy elements in the loops rise up and through the photosphere inside the loop and eventually fall back as coronal rain (or in GM's lingo "what flying stuff"). The high ionization rate of neon and oxygen, and now the SDO images suggest to me that you can outright ignore the heavier elements and fixate strictly on what you see in the solar wind data. That's my personal best advice.

Keep in mind that whatever elements you find in the solar wind data (in the exact order you find them) were most likely in a highly energetic state until they exited the photosphere, so get over the notion of photoionization in the photosphere from these wavelengths inside an electric sun theory. It ain't going to happen.

Mainstream theory on the other hand is *devastated* by this visual information. That ionization concept *DOES* apply to standard theory because mainstream theory is oblivious to the discharge between the surface and the heliosphere, so it has no possible way to explain these high ionization rates, or why these wavelengths are not absorbed in the first few *METERS* of the photosphere. Birkeland's solar model may not be completely confirmed by these images, but one thing is certain, mainstream theory is falsified by these images.

Odd that I don't see it in any science journals. i would think someone would notice the devastation of mainline theory.

 

[Michael Mozina]

It seems he is trying to undermine conventional science by using pictures that could only be gotten by conventional science.

FYI, the ENGINEERS that built this equipment are my real heroes, even if I don't agree with the "interpreters". I certainly use and appreciate all the luxuries afforded me by conventional science.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Odd that I don't see it in any science journals.

Why would you expect that when I've only even had access to the first images for what, a week?

i would think someone would notice the devastation of mainline theory.

Oh, I'm sure they've noticed too. I'm just not sure they have any idea what to do about that little bombshell just yet.

 

[ben m]

Highly ionized plasma stew.

How ionized, Michael? Don't say "very ionized", because if 0.001% of it has gotten as high as Ne VIII, that's opaque too. It has to be narrowly confined between Ne IV and Ne VII in a distribution unlike anything ever observed in physics.

This is difficult to label a "plasma" any more, MM. This appears to be "a handpicked collection of ions on which MM has 10^48 individual restraining orders preventing them from participating in unauthorized thermodynamics."

 

[sol invictus]

Let's start with 2000Km for the neon. I'll pick up the difference in silicon.

10^10V across 2000km of Ne plasma? Same temperature and density as before when the voltage gets switched on?

Before we do this I want to know something. Suppose you settle on some parameters and I go through this and discover - wonder of wonders - that 2000km of Plasmozina™ 2.0 is just as opaque to 171A radiation as 1.0 was.

One of two things could happen:

a) you say "You're correct, my model has been falsified. I was wrong. Back to the drawing board to start over from scratch."

b) you say "Oh, I forgot to tell you my plasma is full of luminiferous aether elves that help each 171A photon slide by all those nasty Ne atoms."

Which is it going to be? Because the first time we did this, you took something that looked a heck of a lot like option b). And like I said, if your model isn't falsifiable, it isn't science - and arguing with people over their religious faith is really boring.

 

[sol invictus]

How ionized, Michael? Don't say "very ionized", because if 0.001% of it has gotten as high as Ne VIII, that's opaque too. It has to be narrowly confined between Ne IV and Ne VII in a distribution unlike anything ever observed in physics.

This is difficult to label a "plasma" any more, MM. This appears to be "a handpicked collection of ions on which MM has 10^48 individual restraining orders preventing them from participating in unauthorized thermodynamics."

What's the cross section for a 171A gamma to scatter off or be absorbed by Ne VIII?

 

[Wolverine]

Stundie?

Nah. This one's much better:

I certainly use and appreciate all the luxuries afforded me by conventional science.