Tim Thompson
Muse
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2008
- Messages
- 969
Active Region 9143 & "Mountains" on the Sun
The image above appears on Mozina's surface of the sun webpage with a caption which includes the statement, "The flare activity is caused by increased electrical activity as fast moving plasma sweeps over surface ridges, resulting in increased electrical activity on the windward side of the mountain ranges." Consistent, of course, with Mozina's assertion here that we are looking at mountain ranges on a crusty, mostly iron surface.
We have already seen convincing evidence that fundamental thermodynamics does not allow for the possibility of an iron crust of any kind. We have also seen no rational counterpoint to this argument from either brantc (who favors a solid, rigid surface), or Mozina (who favors a less solid & rigid crust of some ill-defined sort). It is apparent that the whole "mountain" story is simply an optical illusion, where the brain creates mountains out of pure imagination, given a few hints from suggestive lighting. Some here have likened it to "seeing bunny rabbits in the clouds", and I don't doubt that is what Mozina is in fact doing, imagining mountains where none really are.
Since fundamental physics does not seem to sway the bias of the True Believer, perhaps another image to counter Mozina's images? Mozina identifies this as Active Region 9143, his image above dated 28 Aug 2000. The structures he identifies as mountains are in fact simply magnetic field loops. While Mozina's image looks essentially straight down onto the "mountains", other images show the same active region near the limb of the sun. In this viewing geometry, we should see the "mountains" in relief along the rim of the sun; we should be looking at the faces of the slopes of the mountains. But see 171Å Image dated 25 Aug 2000, which clearly shows the magnetic field loops and no sign of mountains in relief anywhere. Furthermore, see the Quicktime movie of the same view of the same region, showing a flare eruption. You can see that the loops are really loops, changing with time, and not static, as one would expect for mountains misinterpreted as loops. This image & movie certainly argue against the interpretation of mountains in the single still frame, or movie, provided by Mozina, because the viewing angle should reveal any structures in relief along the limb of the sun.
Mountains do not get up and walk around (except of course for the infamous saga of Billy the Mountain). I have used the very handy Active Region Maps page from the Mees Solar Observatory in Hawaii in an attempt to track the motion of the solar active region 9143 across the disk. You can track the progress of AR 9143 in the archived maps, from its first appearance on 25 Aug 2000 until it rotates all the way around and out of view after 5 Sep 2000, 12 days in all. The locations given on the maps are not easily interpreted; I can't tell if the longitude coordinate is supposed to move with the sun or not. However, the latitude coordinate is fairly obvious. If the sun were a rigid rotator, the latitude coordinate must remain fixed for any feature fixed to the rigid surface. As we can see, this is not the case for active region 9143, which migrates in latitude over a range between 18 & 20 degrees. The Carrington longitude ("LO" on the archived maps) is fixed to the rotating sun, as is longitude on Earth. Once again, the active region 9143 is not fixed, but rather moves in Carrington longitude between 44 & 48 degrees. So the "mountains" appear to migrate across the visible disk of the sun in both latitude & longitude, hardly the kind of behavior one would expect from a fixed "mountain" on an iron crust or surface.
Active regions are associated with sunspot groups, but active region number are assigned by NOAA, and are not always the same for a given physical sunspot group. So I tried to recover the same physical active region as it came around again, starting roughly 27 Sep 2000. I think that active region 9166 on the maps is probably the same group. I tried using the archived sunspot drawings from the 150-foot solar tower telescope at Mt. Wilson Observatory to recover the same group from its morphology. But the groups are highly variable in morphology and I can't reliably identify the same group coming back around (witness the sudden eruption of spots between Sep 13 & Sep 14 2000). If I could, then I could track the migration of the group in latitude & longitude over even longer periods. But I was unable to do that.
So, in summary:
The image above appears on Mozina's surface of the sun webpage with a caption which includes the statement, "The flare activity is caused by increased electrical activity as fast moving plasma sweeps over surface ridges, resulting in increased electrical activity on the windward side of the mountain ranges." Consistent, of course, with Mozina's assertion here that we are looking at mountain ranges on a crusty, mostly iron surface.
We have already seen convincing evidence that fundamental thermodynamics does not allow for the possibility of an iron crust of any kind. We have also seen no rational counterpoint to this argument from either brantc (who favors a solid, rigid surface), or Mozina (who favors a less solid & rigid crust of some ill-defined sort). It is apparent that the whole "mountain" story is simply an optical illusion, where the brain creates mountains out of pure imagination, given a few hints from suggestive lighting. Some here have likened it to "seeing bunny rabbits in the clouds", and I don't doubt that is what Mozina is in fact doing, imagining mountains where none really are.
Since fundamental physics does not seem to sway the bias of the True Believer, perhaps another image to counter Mozina's images? Mozina identifies this as Active Region 9143, his image above dated 28 Aug 2000. The structures he identifies as mountains are in fact simply magnetic field loops. While Mozina's image looks essentially straight down onto the "mountains", other images show the same active region near the limb of the sun. In this viewing geometry, we should see the "mountains" in relief along the rim of the sun; we should be looking at the faces of the slopes of the mountains. But see 171Å Image dated 25 Aug 2000, which clearly shows the magnetic field loops and no sign of mountains in relief anywhere. Furthermore, see the Quicktime movie of the same view of the same region, showing a flare eruption. You can see that the loops are really loops, changing with time, and not static, as one would expect for mountains misinterpreted as loops. This image & movie certainly argue against the interpretation of mountains in the single still frame, or movie, provided by Mozina, because the viewing angle should reveal any structures in relief along the limb of the sun.
Mountains do not get up and walk around (except of course for the infamous saga of Billy the Mountain). I have used the very handy Active Region Maps page from the Mees Solar Observatory in Hawaii in an attempt to track the motion of the solar active region 9143 across the disk. You can track the progress of AR 9143 in the archived maps, from its first appearance on 25 Aug 2000 until it rotates all the way around and out of view after 5 Sep 2000, 12 days in all. The locations given on the maps are not easily interpreted; I can't tell if the longitude coordinate is supposed to move with the sun or not. However, the latitude coordinate is fairly obvious. If the sun were a rigid rotator, the latitude coordinate must remain fixed for any feature fixed to the rigid surface. As we can see, this is not the case for active region 9143, which migrates in latitude over a range between 18 & 20 degrees. The Carrington longitude ("LO" on the archived maps) is fixed to the rotating sun, as is longitude on Earth. Once again, the active region 9143 is not fixed, but rather moves in Carrington longitude between 44 & 48 degrees. So the "mountains" appear to migrate across the visible disk of the sun in both latitude & longitude, hardly the kind of behavior one would expect from a fixed "mountain" on an iron crust or surface.
Active regions are associated with sunspot groups, but active region number are assigned by NOAA, and are not always the same for a given physical sunspot group. So I tried to recover the same physical active region as it came around again, starting roughly 27 Sep 2000. I think that active region 9166 on the maps is probably the same group. I tried using the archived sunspot drawings from the 150-foot solar tower telescope at Mt. Wilson Observatory to recover the same group from its morphology. But the groups are highly variable in morphology and I can't reliably identify the same group coming back around (witness the sudden eruption of spots between Sep 13 & Sep 14 2000). If I could, then I could track the migration of the group in latitude & longitude over even longer periods. But I was unable to do that.
So, in summary:
- Thermodynamics is still a strong & fundamental argument against any iron crust or surface.
- Images of the same active region near the limb of the sun fail to reveal the relief expected from mountains in silhouette.
- The apparent migration of the active region in fixed latitude & longitude argues against the "mountain" interpretation.
well worth it!
} that evidently encourages independent thought and research -- BRAVO, I commend you for that; but part of the scientific method they are probably trying to impart is to recognize when you are heading for a dead-end and gracefully withdraw (sometimes with an apology, but not always required). The point is that one DOES realize the mistake and correct it.
); so, I don't think that if you willfully continue to post Mozina-style whaledreck without putting forth any effort to learn from those remarkable members (most of whom leave me in the dust as far ar their education and level of expertise), who take their time and energy to help you, and others, actually be EXPOSED to real BLEEDING-EDGE Physics, you deserve any more mercy.
