Racism in Australia

[gerg]

I don't get this thread. Why is there so much anger over the suggestion that racism is a problem in Australia, when everyone pretty much admits it's true?

You can admit something is true and still be angry about it.

 

[dudalb]

My thoughts are that interference in other cultures doesn't work. Some South American tribes that have had little to no outside influence have shown that Science and/or religion is not the be all and end all. They live life with much love and respect for each other and the environment and don't have all these issues that are rife in modern societies like addictions.

They also probably have a very short life expectency.
The Rousseau Myth of the Noble Savage lives!

 

[dudalb]

Yes many many years of interference and look what it's done to the original inhabitants...

that's your spin on it.


what is this some western education system type general knowledge quiz?? ..puhleeze..

Around here if you make a statement of fact, you are expected to be able to back it up with facts.

 

[dudalb]

*humms "3%, 3%, 3%" to himself while doing a waltz*

After gerg did the hit and run on the Australia thread over in History et al., I went to the ANTAR website. It's curiously lacking in concrete grievances. They seem to object to the NTER but fail to make a case as to why it is bad and what they think are good alternatives.

Also I'm intrigued by the "untouched indigenous tribes are one with nature and totally utopian" vibe. Neither science nor cynicism seem to be able to kill it.

It's just the latest twist on the Rosseau "nobel savage" nonsense.
In the US we have a lot of so called 'experts' on Native Americans who refuse to accept that War was a way of life among many tribes, the Plains tribes in Particular, because it would clash with their idea of Pre Columbus life in America as being a Utopia.

 

[WildCat]

No aborigines that I have ever met want to return to that existence. They want to move forward too, but here's the thing: They want to manage it themselves at they own pace and using their own methods, with dignity.

So, casinos?

 

[gerg]

Around here if you make a statement of fact, you are expected to be able to back it up with facts.

Yes but the question that was asked had no relation to what I posted..The question that was asked was "what percentage of the total population of Australia is made up by the indigenous people?" That has as much relevance to the thead "Racism in Australia" as the price of fish in China..

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Well what do the Aboriginals think? Are they comfortable with being called "Australians" or "Aboriginals/Aboriginees" for that matter? Perhaps they're perfectly fine with it but I'm not sure at this point hence the quote marks.

The indigenous I know (and I do know many) by and large see us all as Australians.

My thoughts are that interference in other cultures doesn't work. Some South American tribes that have had little to no outside influence have shown that Science and/or religion is not the be all and end all. They live life with much love and respect for each other and the environment and don't have all these issues that are rife in modern societies like addictions.

Now you are in my area - so tell me more about the facts on indegenous addiction in Australia.

I don't get this thread. Why is there so much anger over the suggestion that racism is a problem in Australia, when everyone pretty much admits it's true?

There are problems with racism all over the world, here no different to anywhere else - that does not mean that the vast majority of the community is racist.

The title of the thread should hopefully give a clue

I refer you to my earlier post where I gave my thoughts on the matter

What thoughts?
So far you have given some provocative generalisations (which was your intent - to provoke), so now, how about some facts and specifics to back them up? Huh?

I think racism is still a problem in America too, so don't attack me (if you wouldn't mind... thanks) - I just have a worthless hearsay-based anecdote to share. My parents, went to Australia on business a few years ago and they said they were surprised by how racist some of their colleagues there were toward "abos" or whatever the term is. These people they met could have been far from representative of Australians of course. But it does seem to suggest to me that those, however few, who actually are racist must pay less of a social price for it than we would in the US, for example.

Where did they go?
There are certainly 'pockets' where problems are more prevalent than others.

It's just the latest twist on the Rosseau "nobel savage" nonsense.
In the US we have a lot of so called 'experts' on Native Americans who refuse to accept that War was a way of life among many tribes, the Plains tribes in Particular, because it would clash with their idea of Pre Columbus life in America as being a Utopia.

Humans are human wherever you go. There will always be wars over breeding, land, property, food etc. Darwin deems it so.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Yes but the question that was asked had no relation to what I posted..The question that was asked was "what percentage of the total population of Australia is made up by the indigenous people?" That has as much relevance to the thead "Racism in Australia" as the price of fish in China..

Any facts and specifics would be nice.

It would also be a good way to get this conversation actually going somewhere, as so far all we have are inaccurate generalisations.

 

[Meed]

There are problems with racism all over the world, here no different to anywhere else - that does not mean that the vast majority of the community is racist.

Who said the vast majority of the community is racist? There is racism all over the world, of course, but that shouldn't be used as a reason for dismissing it as an issue.

Where did they go?
There are certainly 'pockets' where problems are more prevalent than others.

Surfers Paradise, Queensland.

 

[Meed]

You can admit something is true and still be angry about it.

I wasn't saying they were angry about racism in Australia, I was saying they were angry about it being brought up as a subject.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Who said the vast majority of the community is racist? There is racism all over the world, of course, but that shouldn't be used as a reason for dismissing it as an issue.

Agreed, I guess my comment was more directed at the OP and some of the generalisations rather than anything you said. Apologies if it seemed otherwise.

Surfers Paradise, Queensland.

I don't know that much about Surfers and their attitude to the indigenous. I have been there only three times and was largely unimpressed (too touristy for me). I would not have been surprised either if some of the locals slagged off against the American and Japanese tourists as "their little piece of heaven has been raped and exploited by foreign money".

Most Aussies love diversity, we feel for the battler and identify with him. We embrace differences and the colour that those differences bring to our world. Empathy is our middle name. We love to help up, not hand out and will do this wherever possible.
My friends, neighbours and clients come from every continent on earth, are every colour imaginable and represent every generation of Australian (I am fifth, some are first and some 1000th) they are all welcome in my home and are all Australian.

I am not different to most, so for anyone to suggest we have an inherently racist problem in Australia rubs me (and those I have just mentioned) the wrong way, as it is fundamentally untrue.

Cheers

 

[Zep]

I wasn't saying they were angry about racism in Australia, I was saying they were angry about it being brought up as a subject.

Not at all! We can hardly deny the obvious now, nor can we deny history. But dealing with the situation rationally means not spitting the dummy as a first response.

 

[Zep]

Surfers Paradise, Queensland.

Do you mean our soon-to-be-emigrant, ex-pollie and famous blood-nut Pauline?

Re the OP, I vaguely recall her saying something to the effect that "Abo's should really go back to the country they came from". Ah, me...

 

[MG1962]

Most Aussies love diversity, we feel for the battler and identify with him. We embrace differences and the colour that those differences bring to our world. Empathy is our middle name. We love to help up, not hand out and will do this wherever possible.
My friends, neighbours and clients come from every continent on earth, are every colour imaginable and represent every generation of Australian (I am fifth, some are first and some 1000th) they are all welcome in my home and are all Australian.

Great words indeed.

Australian society is far from perfect. But the important thing is we keep trying to make it better. And we are famous for setting our standards high

 

[Lolly]

Well what do the Aboriginals think?

There's no such thing as "the Aboriginals".

The indigenous I know (and I do know many) by and large see us all as Australians.

That's how I see it. Some Australians come from convict ancestors, some have parents or grandparents who were born in Italy or Greece or Vietnam (or lots of other places), some are here from somewhere else (Africa, England, Asia, Eastern Europe, lots of places) and some are indigenous.

There's no one group of "indigenous people". The people in one area are different to the people in another. Different remote communities are different from each other. Some indigenous people are well-off professionals and some are living on social security. Some have problems which others have never faced. You can't just lump everyone in together as "them" and "us", "indigenous" and "whatever-term-you-want-to-use-to-differentiate".

The indigenous population taken as a whole has been disadvantaged (health, life expectancy, likelihood of imprisonment), but on an every day level everybody is his or her own person and is an individual. I think that's what people get upset about if you appear to be launching an open-slather "you're all racists!" attack. There are a lot of people who don't use racial epithets and who would like the disadvantages addressed, and there are people working and trying to do something about it. Some of the issues are not easy to fix or to even work out how best to go about fixing it, but that doesn't mean that people aren't trying or that all Australians are racist in their attitudes.

 

[gerg]

Any facts and specifics would be nice.

It would also be a good way to get this conversation actually going somewhere, as so far all we have are inaccurate generalisations.

http://www.antar.org.au/node/221
plenty of facts in there

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Your facts and beliefs brains....
What you just gave are unsubstantiated, anonymous anecdotes only - a long way from factual. No doubt the compalinants have taken these stories to the press and/or their lawyers.

Do you think all that's correct in your previous link? Do you subscribe to all written in there?

Pick one, let's start there.

 

[DC]

It's offensive to the vast majority of Australians who are not racist and it is also offensive to the indigenous of Australia.

You had already formed an opinion, and your comments also proved they were baseless.

You are a flog who can't recognise his own ignorance.

No actually i still havent made up my mind about it. i never was in Australia and dont know much about it, and the few things i know are about the Nature, less about the people.

But i am extremly happy there are also sane Australians here that are able to debate it like grown ups.

would i have to base my oppinion on your posts, i would propably have a extremly distorted oppinion about Australia.

 

[Zep]

Let's look at the Hugo's incident.

In April 2008, a world-renowned Aboriginal composer, buzzing after a standing ovation at the Sydney Opera House, was turned away from half-empty Kings Cross haunt Hugo's. He and his friend were told, "You can't expect us to just let anyone in."
William Barton, a son of Delmae Barton, who has been to some of the world's top bars over his acclaimed career, was told the venue was "at capacity" as he tried to get it at 9.30pm on a Sunday to celebrate a friend's birthday. His friend immediately fronted Hugo's door staff - and was rudely told: "You can't expect us to just let anyone in."

Sounds pretty awful, doesn't it!

But let's look closer. First, this is a totally direct quote (nay, plagiarism) from a Daily Telegraph article. Most Sydneysiders know that the Telegraph, a Murdoch rag, is famous only for its shoddy, yellow journalism (and the form guide). If you want anything MISquoted and blown out of all proportion, tell the Tele. So chances are things didn't quite go down like that at all.

More? Here's some of the text left out of the lifted quote:

A reluctant Barton said yesterday he was disappointed but not surprised by the brush-off at Hugo's, which is known as "Huge egos" among the Sydney party crowd for its snobby airs.

Ah. Perhaps it wasn't his "aboriginality" so much that stopped him as much as he wasn't one of the known snobs-about-town (yes, Sydney has its fair share of society snobs, climbers and assorted wannabe hangers-on who have the own little tight cliques). I'm Anglo, white, straight and well-off and can dress well. But I'm sure I could not get into Hugo's either, for exactly the same reason - my name is not on the list with the door-bitch.

Now the story sounds somewhat more realistic, and lot less antagonistic towards Mr Barton on account of his colour, etc. But that doesn't make such a good punch-line, does it!

Of course, that in no way excuses places barring entry to Australian natives on the basis of their "race". And the door-bitch at Hugo's needs a thorough kicking.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

didnt read all the claims. but at least partially it soudns correct.

http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/huricane.nsf/view01/313713727C084992C125761F00443D60?opendocument

No actually i still havent made up my mind about it. i never was in Australia and dont know much about it, and the few things i know are about the Nature, less about the people.

So if you hadn't/haven't made up your mind, tell me which parts "soudns (sic) correct"?