Split Thread Barbra Streisand, Sean Penn, truthers?

[Cicero]

Split from USA Politics thread here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5802135#post5802135

Posted By: LashL

Says the guy who, without ever providing a cite, maintains "Sean Penn and Barbra Streisand proclaim 9/11 was an inside job."

How many years have you been in denial about your heroes being troothers?

Babs is a LIHOP troother and married to a MIHOP troother:

"And now, with the September 11th report finally declassified, we are beginning to get a clearer picture about the Bush administration’s failure to heed the warnings of the impending terrorist attack." Barbra Streisand July 30, 2003

"But can you believe that some polls now show that more people believe Bush/Rice/Cheney's take on their handling of intelligence pre-and post-9/11 than the many people inside the administration who have come out to tell us the facts about what really went on - including Richard Clarke and Paul O'Neil." Barbra Streisand April 1, 2004

Penn is of course a troother and a favorite of the troothers.


" For the first time, 9/11 truth activists were asked to speak, which was historic. At least 5,000 people gathered at Dag Hammerskjold Plaza at the United Nations for speeches, then marched to Union Sq. for a full day of speeches and entertainment. A letter by actor Sean Penn, and a special appearance by Cynthia McKinney were the highlights. The 9/11 truth movement was highly visible throughout the day. Members were approached by many hundreds of peace activists."


Penn's name is not only included in the 911 troother website but is featured in the header:

Does your favorite Hollywood Celeb. speak out for 9/11 TRUTH? Bruce Willis, Sean Penn, and more

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=152551442&blogId=402029552

Penn is featured in this troother website along with David Ray Griffin.

http://www.middleeast.org/mereport/archives/2006922.html

These are films recommended by troothers:

Also recommended for your edification:

"9/11 - An Inside Job?" DVD

"Loose Change" DVD (1st edition, 2nd Edition, and Final Cut versions)

"The Reflecting Pool" DVD

"9/11 Mysteries - Part 1: Demolitions" DVD

"In Their Own Words - The Untold Stories of the 9/11 Families" DVD

"Oil, Smoke & Mirrors" DVD (highly recommended by myself)

"Fabled Enemies" DVD

"Unconstitutional: The War on Our Civil Liberties" DVD

"War & Truth" DVD

"War Made Easy: How Presidents & Pundits Keep Spinning Us to Death (narrated by actor Sean Penn) DVD

"Militainment, Inc: Militarism & Pop Culture" DVD

"Bush Family Fortunes" DVD

http://www.dherbs.com/articles/tom-joyner-show-336.html

 

[johnny karate]

Interesting that Cicero's semantic acumen used to dissect Erickson's statement to provide us with his "true intentions" seems to spectacularly fail him when trying to make us think Streisand and Penn are Truthers.

 

[Cicero]

Interesting that Cicero's semantic acumen used to dissect Erickson's statement to provide us with his "true intentions" seems to spectacularly fail him when trying to make us think Streisand and Penn are Truthers.

What is your definition of a "Truther?"

 

[johnny karate]

What is your definition of a "Truther?"

Someone who believes 9/11 was an inside job.

None of your quotes indicate that Streisand or Penn believe 9/11 was an inside job.

 

[Cicero]

Someone who believes 9/11 was an inside job.

None of your quotes indicate that Streisand or Penn believe 9/11 was an inside job.

Babs is a LIHOP. In her world, the Bush administration's "failure to heed the warnings" can only mean that Bush let 911 happen on purpose.

Penn has never distanced himself from the Troofers. Whatever he says about 911, they love it. They also consider his film to be as revealing about 911 as the Loose Change video.

 

[johnny karate]

Babs is a LIHOP. In her world, the Bush administration's "failure to heed the warnings" can only mean that Bush let 911 happen on purpose.

Or it could mean she believes the Bush administration "failed to heed the warnings" as a great deal of people who aren't 9/11 Truthers believe.

Penn has never distanced himself from the Troofers. Whatever he says about 911, they love it. They also consider his film to be as revealing about 911 as the Loose Change video.

How Truthers feel about Penn has no bearing on what Penn believes.


Before we go any further, allow me to remind you of some of the comments you made earlier in this thread:

How does Erickson pulling out his wife's shotgun (he didn't say loaded shotgun or that he pointed it at the geek) when he answers the door turn into "a threat of shooting?" Erickson only says that the twerp would be "scared."

He didn't say "threaten," and he didn't say "shoot." he did say the twerp would be "scared" at the sight of his wife's shotgun. Perhaps you will explain how you shoot someone with an unloaded shotgun?

He never said "point" the shotgun at the twerp.

What need is there to reinterpret what Erickson said? The twerp would be scared at the mere sight of his wife's shotgun. That is literally what he said.

Show me quotes from Penn or Streisand explicitly stating their beliefs about 9/11 that can hold up to the rigid standards you insist we apply when interpreting Erickson's statement, or just let this ridiculous charade drop.

 

[Lurker]

How many years have you been in denial about your heroes being troothers?

Babs is a LIHOP troother and married to a MIHOP troother:

"And now, with the September 11th report finally declassified, we are beginning to get a clearer picture about the Bush administration’s failure to heed the warnings of the impending terrorist attack." Barbra Streisand July 30, 2003

"But can you believe that some polls now show that more people believe Bush/Rice/Cheney's take on their handling of intelligence pre-and post-9/11 than the many people inside the administration who have come out to tell us the facts about what really went on - including Richard Clarke and Paul O'Neil." Barbra Streisand April 1, 2004

I have no idea if BS is LIHOP truther or not but these two quotes tell us nothing. Bush did have a PDB that warned about BinLaden determined to strike America. It was new. Could BS be talking about that? Could she also be lumping in the FBI with teh Bush admin when they did not connect the dots about aviator training in MN?

Please provide better evidence of your accusations next time.

 

[Lurker]

Babs is a LIHOP. In her world, the Bush administration's "failure to heed the warnings" can only mean that Bush let 911 happen on purpose.

Logically this is not true. Plenty of other possibilities exist other than LIHOP. Let me list a few:

Perhaps Bush;

1. Did not deem warnings credible
2. Did not read warnings personally
3. Saw no difference between past and current warning signs
4. Was not briefed on all details
5. Decided to delay action
6. Decided no action could be made on vague warnings


Any of these and innumerable other possibilities could be true and Barbara Streisand's statement remains valid (from her point of view). There is no reason to presume she is LIHOP...unless you hate liberals and will mind read in an attempt to cast them as negative as possible. Cicero would never do that, would he?

 

[Cicero]

Or it could mean she believes the Bush administration "failed to heed the warnings" as a great deal of people who aren't 9/11 Truthers believe.

Show me quotes from Penn or Streisand explicitly stating their beliefs about 9/11 that can hold up to the rigid standards you insist we apply when interpreting Erickson's statement, or just let this ridiculous charade drop.

Logically this is not true. Plenty of other possibilities exist other than LIHOP. Let me list a few:

Perhaps Bush;

1. Did not deem warnings credible
2. Did not read warnings personally
3. Saw no difference between past and current warning signs
4. Was not briefed on all details
5. Decided to delay action
6. Decided no action could be made on vague warnings


Any of these and innumerable other possibilities could be true and Barbara Streisand's statement remains valid (from her point of view). There is no reason to presume she is LIHOP...unless you hate liberals and will mind read in an attempt to cast them as negative as possible. Cicero would never do that, would he?

"6. KNOWING ABOUT THE IMPENDING HIJACKINGS, BUSH DID NOTHING TO BEEF UP AIRLINE SECURITY" Barbara Streisand October 26, 2004


Still insist Babs isn't a LIHOP troother? Do non-troothers say Bush knew for sure about the actual 911 plot in advance and deliberately did nothing to foil the plot? This is the exact same drivel regurgitated by DRG, Loose Change and Alex Jones.

Why would the "9/11 truth movement" single out the appearance of Cynthia McKinney and Penn's letter as "highlights" for "9/11 truth movement?" Is Cynthia Mckinney also a non-troother?

"Cynthia Mckinney charged that George W. Bush may have known about the September 11 attacks in advance and allowed them to happen in order to make profits for the Carlyle Group, an owner of defense contractors with which former President Bush has connections. "It is known that President Bush's father, through the Carlyle Group, had–at the time of the attacks–joint business interests with the bin Laden construction company and many defense industry holdings, the stocks of which have soared since September 11,"

 

[johnny karate]

"6. KNOWING ABOUT THE IMPENDING HIJACKINGS, BUSH DID NOTHING TO BEEF UP AIRLINE SECURITY" Barbara Streisand October 26, 2004

It is common knowledge that the Bush administration received intelligence briefings warning of Al-Qaeda's intent to attack the U.S. and did not adequately act on this intelligence. Your out-of-context quote could very easily be referring to this, and not necessarily mean that Streisand is an LIHOPer.

Still insist Babs isn't a LIHOP troother?

The only thing I insist is that you provide a level of proof for your assertions commensurate with what you are requiring of anyone interpreting Erickson's statements as a potential threat of violence. In this endeavor, you continue to fail spectacularly.

Why would the "9/11 truth movement" single out the appearance of Cynthia McKinney and Penn's letter as "highlights" for "9/11 truth movement?" Is Cynthia Mckinney also a non-troother?

Does the difference between making an appearance and having a letter you wrote read completely escape you? What was the content of the letter? Did Penn write this letter for the express purpose of being read at this event? If they also read experts from "Leaves of Grass", would you claim Walt Whitman was a Truther as well?

For a guy who claims that a man brandishing a shotgun isn't necessarily meant to be a threat, I really expected better from you

 

[Cicero]

It is common knowledge that the Bush administration received intelligence briefings warning of Al-Qaeda's intent to attack the U.S. and did not adequately act on this intelligence. Your out-of-context quote could very easily be referring to this, and not necessarily mean that Streisand is an LIHOPer.

Out of context? This could have easily come from a troother website.

"8.BUSH WAS INACTIVE AND INDECISIVE FOR A FULL 7 MINUTES THE MORNING OF 9/11 WHEN INFORMED OF THE ATTACK ON THE WORLD TRADE CENTER. IF BUSH HAD ACTED QUICKLY AND INTELLIGENTLY PERHAPS HE COULD HAVE GIVEN AN ORDER TO SHOOT DOWN THE PLANE HEADED TOWARD THE PENTAGON AND SAVED THE LIVES OF THOSE WHO WERE KILLED" Barbara Streisand October 26, 2004

This is the same "proof" troothers cite as evidence of conspiracy.

http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20080108140129235

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlWSv0NZBRw&feature=related

http://activistnyc.wordpress.com/2007/12/22/bush-at-booker-school-on-the-morning-of-911/

 

[johnny karate]

Awesome. But it proves nothing. Show me where Streisand says "I believe Bush had full knowledge of the 9/11 attacks and purposely allowed them to take place in order to further his agenda."

To reiterate:

The only thing I insist is that you provide a level of proof for your assertions commensurate with what you are requiring of anyone interpreting Erickson's statements as a potential threat of violence.

Your failure continues.

 

[Cicero]

Awesome. But it proves nothing. Show me where Streisand says "I believe Bush had full knowledge of the 9/11 attacks and purposely allowed them to take place in order to further his agenda."
To reiterate:


Your failure continues.

Show where DRG says that and yet he is the pied piper of 911 truth grunions. He makes the same comments as Babs. Why is DRG a truther and not Babs?

 

[johnny karate]

Show where DRG says that and yet he is the pied piper of 911 truth grunions. He makes the same comments as Babs. Why is DRG a truther and not Babs?

I'm not the one making claims about anyone being a Truther. You are. Therefore, I'm not required to prove anything about anyone within the context of this discussion. You are.

So to sum up:

Cicero defends a man who wants to threaten census workers with a gun by semantically dissecting his statement within an inch of its life. Anyone taking an opposite position must provide an explicit threat by Erickson specifically stating he intends to shoot census workers.

Cicero claims Sean Penn and Barbara Streisand are Truthers based on vague, non-specific statements that could easily be interpreted other ways. Anyone taking an opposite position must basically perform the impossible task of proving Penn and Streisand are not Truthers.

Partisan gamesmanship at it's absolute finest.

 

[Cicero]

I'm not the one making claims about anyone being a Truther. You are. Therefore, I'm not required to prove anything about anyone within the context of this discussion. You are.

All but one of your 23 threads are in the 911 Conspiracies forum. 911 troothers seems to be your major concern on JREF. But when Penn and Streisand express identical opinions held by troothers you are incredulous about them being troothers instead of just being Bush bashers. Do you make the same distinction about any of the 911 woo folks in your 911 threads?

Could you tell us about a Truth Movement event, any Truth Movement event, that had attendance numbers indicative of the popular support they claim to have?

Doesn't reading Sean Penn's letter at a troother rally and citing Sean Penn's movie on their troother websites count as ways the Truth Movement indicates their supposed "popular support?"

As many of you know, we have been inundated with CTers lately come here to with their "just asking questions" smoke screen.

You brand anyone who is "just asking questions" about 911 as CTer. Why is your bar set so low for proof of their trooferism than it is for Babs and Penn?

What is so special about these libs being of the same mind as the Truth Movement when the Truth Movement majority is comprised of libs?

 

[johnny karate]

... a bunch of off-topic nonsense snipped ...

If you really want to discuss 9/11 Trutherism and challenge me on any statement I've ever made regarding that topic, please start a thread in the appropriate sub-forum and I'll gladly respond. But please notify me in this thread as I haven't frequented the 9/11 section of the forums in several months.

However, what we're discussing here, and what you keep side-stepping, is your blatant hypocrisy and the stunning double-standards of proof you require for claims that support your belief system as opposed to those that don't.

Penn and Streisand may very well be Truthers; frankly, I don't care one way or the other. But based on the standards of evidence you've required to determine if Erickson threatened census workers with gun violence, you haven't even begun to approach establishing your claim about Penn and Streisand.

Now, either provide said evidence in accordance with what you require of others, or admit that you've done nothing more than play semantic shell games in this thread.

Or you can just keep on the way you have been, and prove my point with every post you make.

 

[Lurker]

Out of context? This could have easily come from a troother website.

"8.BUSH WAS INACTIVE AND INDECISIVE FOR A FULL 7 MINUTES THE MORNING OF 9/11 WHEN INFORMED OF THE ATTACK ON THE WORLD TRADE CENTER. IF BUSH HAD ACTED QUICKLY AND INTELLIGENTLY PERHAPS HE COULD HAVE GIVEN AN ORDER TO SHOOT DOWN THE PLANE HEADED TOWARD THE PENTAGON AND SAVED THE LIVES OF THOSE WHO WERE KILLED" Barbara Streisand October 26, 2004

This is the same "proof" troothers cite as evidence of conspiracy.

Wow. Now you adopt truther logic? Wow!

Still waiting for the BS quote showing her to be a truther. Thus far, nothing.

 

[Lurker]

All but one of your 23 threads are in the 911 Conspiracies forum. 911 troothers seems to be your major concern on JREF. But when Penn and Streisand express identical opinions held by troothers you are incredulous about them being troothers instead of just being Bush bashers. Do you make the same distinction about any of the 911 woo folks in your 911 threads?

But they are not identical. I have shown that to be the case.

Doesn't reading Sean Penn's letter at a troother rally and citing Sean Penn's movie on their troother websites count as ways the Truth Movement indicates their supposed "popular support?"

Again, you use truther logic? What is up with that? Truthers delight in poring through people's quotes attmepting to find any hint of agreement with their cause and then using that publicly to make them appear more mainstream. They do this without consent of the person being quoted and they do so usually by lifting a quote out of context or even misquoting altogether.

That you fall for their idiocy says soemthing about you. Really, Cicero, think about what you are doing here when you use truthers as arbiters of who is a truther.

You brand anyone who is "just asking questions" about 911 as CTer. Why is your bar set so low for proof of their trooferism than it is for Babs and Penn?

because we KNOW that truthers will quote people out of context or quite losely in order to make their ranks appear larger than they truly are. You know they do this yet continue your attack on BS despite my having shown you why the quotes may be misinterpreted as truther support.

 

[Cicero]

Wow. Now you adopt truther logic? Wow!

Still waiting for the BS quote showing her to be a truther. Thus far, nothing.

There is no law that says you have to acknowledge that Babs is a LIHOPer and Penn is in with the Truth Movement. Their comments and actions tell me that they meet and exceed any basic troother requirement.

Babs is full of "BS" quotes.

 

[Cicero]

because we KNOW that truthers will quote people out of context or quite losely in order to make their ranks appear larger than they truly are. You know they do this yet continue your attack on BS despite my having shown you why the quotes may be misinterpreted as truther support.

Despite you having shown what? That in your opinion you don't think Penn and Babs are in sync with the Truth Movement as they just exhibit the usual signs of typical Bush bashers. Penn is well aware that the Truth Movement uses him as one of their poster boys. He has never made any comments to discourage them from using his name, or reading the letter he sent them at their rally, or distance himself from them.

Babs has a website that is dedicated to 911 where she uses the same examples the troothers use as proof of Bush 43's personal knowledge in advance of the 911 plot and his total unwillingness to foil the plot. That is LIHOPer in anyone's book.