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VFF to Appear on Rational Alchemy

It's not a good look and taking it down would be prudent. Being sloppy suggests apathy. Implying that a dead website indicates a current interest is exaggeration.

I don't think it can be denied that Anita has a current interest in breatharianism - she's said as much on this forum. I doubt she'll start lecturing about it again any time soon, though.
 
As one of those dead websites that clutter the web. A quick look at the internet archive site shows how little interest VFF had in it after the first rush.

Again, the lack of basic research is stunningly disappointing. In February 2008, six years after she first started the site, she updated it to announce that she had "found prana." She explained this discovery by saying, "I am blessed with what I at least perceive to be extrasensory perception and am able to experience matter, molecules, atoms, and various forms of light on my own without the use of instruments."

In case you are not aware, she first began corresponding with the IIG in July 2007, which according to my calendar was a full nine months before updating the Alenara site.
 
UY, your approach is predicated on people (the "hoi polloi") believing VfF's claims. What makes you think she's any more believable than anyone else making such claims? Is she charismatic? Does she have any evidence?
1) Of course it's based on people believing her. Why did you feel the need to point that out?

2) Why does have to be more believable? She's as believable as Brent Atwater, whom she has referenced numerous times.

3) Yes, she is charismatic. Quite so, actually.

4) Does Sylvia have any evidence? Do any of them?

My take is that were VfF to go the SB route, she would gain some followers, sure, but who are we to prevent that from occurring? I really don't think that we can, to be honest.
I'm unsure about your use of we above. I can't physically stop her from doing anything nor am I trying. I have a website that counters her claims and demonstrates how she deals with people. If she doesn't try to create a following, nobody finds the site. If she goes for some press coverage (RA excluded), people doing their basic due diligence will find my site.

You see, a "4.0" science student "investigating" the "apparent accuracy" of her Vibrational AlgebraTM who has been investigated by the IIG and has quotes from the JREF's General Manager on her site in bold letters along with an interview where he suggests she deserves further testing just might make her "legitimate" enough for coverage in the local news or to be accepted by a Meetup group to treat their migraines.

When they type Anita Ikonen into Google, my site comes up first. That's when they get the other side of the story. This is where they learn about the multiple failed tests, the lies, the misleading statements, and threats against those who point those things out. This is where they learn this "science student" believes she is a 350 year old alien in human form who talks to ghosts, can live on air, is immune to alcohol, can smell urine inside the body, sense your most recent meal, and can perform about 20 other scientifically impossible feats.

If you don't think having such a resource is of any value, that's your choice. I know for a fact it played a factor when Anita contacted the migraine sufferer's Meetup group. I know her university newspaper quoted from the website.


I think a better tack to take would be the RSL method of calmly, methodically debunking the patently silly claims VfF makes and letting people make up their own minds -- which they will anyway. After all, most people are more likely to ignore VfF if they, themselves, do the necessary debunking once they've received the information that will help them do that.
I invite you to go to my site and show me where I have not calmly and methodically debunked her claims. The fact is my site offers discussion, which means things will get heated, but at least it allows dissenting points of view, something I consider important to my brand of skepticism.

What has complicated matters is the personal vendettas in which VFF has engaged. She has been masterful at playing the victim.

* Have I ever received an infraction here for personally attacking Anita? No. Has she received them for personally attacking me and others? Yes, and she's been suspended multiple times for it.

* Have I ever called her on the phone? No. Has she harassed me on the phone against me expressed wishes? Yes.

* Have I threatened a lawsuit or police action against her? No. Has she done the same to me? Yes.

* Have I ever contacted her against her wishes? No. Has she ever contacted me against my wishes? Yes. Repeatedly. Dozens of times.

* Have I ever brought her family into it? No. Has she? Yes. She posted here, "Oh, so adultery is fine in your eyes, as long as it is done by someone who thinks of themselves as a skeptic. I hope Jim Carr's children won't be embarrassed about their dad when they grow up." Just yesterday she commented on my wife and family on my YouTube, just a day after I told her I was looking to a civil no-contact order.

And yet I am repeatedly accused of obsession and bullying. If you want to compare RSL's reactions to mine, you can start with his direct interactions with Sylvia. When they reach the level of mine and contain the same public comments about my family in various places on the web, harassing phone calls and e-mails, and threats of lawsuits and police action, then we'll talk.

You do a good job of providing that information, but, as others are at pains to point out, you come across as somewhat overbearing.
Yes, I do come across as overbearing. I refer you to the list of actions directed at myself above and ask yourself who is actually the overbearing one?

Allow people to find out and decide for themselves. Your site can be invaluable in providing the information people will need to do that, but only if readers feel you're clearly on their side.
That's certainly one approach, but it's not the approach I've chosen to take. I'm an advocate of a position. That's my style. We can argue until the cows come home about what's more effective, but neither of us will have concrete evidence. That people listen and respond to those who argue with passion is evident to anyone who watches the various cable channels or listens to political radio. That's not to say people don't also listen to NPR, but I don't think you are anyone has the basis to say that my techniques are without merit. You may not like them, but that's another matter.

In the end I do not care what happens to Anita personally, and she's the only possible "victim" of my website. There is nothing on my site that is untrue. There is nothing not in response to information she put forth publicly. I'm doing nothing unethical or illegal. Nobody, and I mean nobody else could possibly be hurt by my site.

Can you say the same for the woman who was telling people that apricot seeds, which are poisonous, can cure cancer?
 
I think UncaYimmy's unhealthy obsession disguised as skepticism has been adequately exposed.

Skepticism has nothing to do with it. I applied skepticism to her claims over a year ago and dismissed them as the drivel they are. The skepticism boat sailed a long time ago. What you seem to have a problem with is my activism, for lack of a better word. I've never tried to disguise it. The FAQ on my website, which remains virtually unchanged since the launch, reads in part, "I firmly believe she needs to stop doing this before something bad happens."

That's not skepticism by any stretch of the imagination. I'm not the least bit interested skeptically looking at her claims any longer because they are virtually unchanged. Besides, it's like shooting fish in a barrel. What I'm interested in doing is keeping this woman from getting a foothold and launching a woo career. Of the 350 or so people who have voted on my website, 64 believe she is setting herself up for a future scam. Since you're only allowed one vote, I don't know know how many others would have selected that option if it were multiple choice. Personally, I would have voted for three options, but chose "She need the help of a mental health professional" as my one vote.

You're free to call it an obsession if you'd like. I don't mind. You're not my target audience. You're wrong about it being an obsession, though. As I have said before, when she's quiet, my site and the VFF threads here are quiet. I don't seek her out. If I never heard from her again privately or publicly I would be thrilled.
 
People seem to be diverting somewhat from discussion of the podcast.

What I get is this:
The podcast has the word 'rational' in the title and claims a skeptical approach.
Two of the members felt that no research was necessary prior to an interview - this is sloppy journalism.
When people have tried to correct a misunderstanding about the subject matter, there's a disappointing reluctance to reconsider their approach/errors.
One of the members should be very familiar with the difference between off-forum and on-forum personalities, and claims to be open minded on the subject of people's motivations behind their claims.
Yet, minds were closed on the possibility of including a balancing viewpoint.
The intervewee has displayed more in the way of personal attacks and has been moderated more frequently for it on this forum and yet it is another person - one not moderated for personal attacks who is labelled as someone who rants too much to be interviewed.

Disappointing, and not a great advert for the podcast/site.



bookitty and TheSkepticCanuck... I sympathise with your viewpoints about tolerance and civility. However, sometimes history matters. bookitty - you and I have had similar discussions on a different thread recently - where history matters. It's over a year I think since I felt, as you did, that perhaps VfF is changing, and coming to a new place of understanding skepticism, and so on. I felt she could maybe benefit from a friendly post, and the experience of someone who has made the difficult move from woo to skepticism. She doesn't want it. She actively seeks the attention of UY over those who offer her better advice and empathy.

I agree that the frustration levels lead to these threads being much less civil than they should be. Having initially faced off against those who were frustrated, and been criticised for all the same things people new to VfF are being criticised for here, I am not sure how that can be changed, though because as UY says above, VfF does not preface her posts with her claims, and she flits about when pinned down on anything. I agree with bookitty (iirc) who made the comment above though that when UY points out someone is ignorant of some detail, at least he clarifies what the detail is. That helps a lot, I think.
 
If you are going to keep raising that point, get it straight. I did not suggest to the counseling center that VfF needed treatment. I sent them a link to her website. Period. This has been explained to you numerous times, and I don't understand why you have such difficulty grasping it. It's not complicated.

If attempting to have a mental health professional take a look at the claims of a delusional young woman is harassment, well, then, I harassed her. There you have it. Finito.
Thank you for confirming my general point.
 
1) Of course it's based on people believing her. Why did you feel the need to point that out?

I was thinking that perhaps you didn't give folks enough credit to see through the nonsense being promulgated by VfF.

2) Why does have to be more believable? She's as believable as Brent Atwater, whom she has referenced numerous times.
As above.

3) Yes, she is charismatic. Quite so, actually.
I'll have to take that on spec. On video and via her text here she seems anything but charismatic.

4) Does Sylvia have any evidence? Do any of them?
Point taken. Perhaps VfF is a "proto-psychic."


I'm unsure about your use of we above. I can't physically stop her from doing anything nor am I trying. I have a website that counters her claims and demonstrates how she deals with people. If she doesn't try to create a following, nobody finds the site. If she goes for some press coverage (RA excluded), people doing their basic due diligence will find my site.
By "we" I mean all who are clear-thinking, rational people who can spot a fraud fairly easily.

You see, a "4.0" science student "investigating" the "apparent accuracy" of her Vibrational AlgebraTM who has been investigated by the IIG and has quotes from the JREF's General Manager on her site in bold letters along with an interview where he suggests she deserves further testing just might make her "legitimate" enough for coverage in the local news or to be accepted by a Meetup group to treat their migraines.

When they type Anita Ikonen into Google, my site comes up first. That's when they get the other side of the story. This is where they learn about the multiple failed tests, the lies, the misleading statements, and threats against those who point those things out. This is where they learn this "science student" believes she is a 350 year old alien in human form who talks to ghosts, can live on air, is immune to alcohol, can smell urine inside the body, sense your most recent meal, and can perform about 20 other scientifically impossible feats.
Yes -- and that's a good thing indeed. I don't think any more is necessary.

If you don't think having such a resource is of any value, that's your choice. I know for a fact it played a factor when Anita contacted the migraine sufferer's Meetup group. I know her university newspaper quoted from the website.
See above. The site is of value in my opinion. I just think that of more value is keeping personality out of it. Report whatever happens dispassionately. I think people generally find that more credible, hence my reference to RSL's site. Snarkiness just comes across as a personal vendetta, even though that may not be the case.


I invite you to go to my site and show me where I have not calmly and methodically debunked her claims. The fact is my site offers discussion, which means things will get heated, but at least it allows dissenting points of view, something I consider important to my brand of skepticism.
Hey, I'm a member of your site! What I'm asking for is a more considered approach -- less frat-house badinage and more salient information.

What has complicated matters is the personal vendettas in which VFF has engaged. She has been masterful at playing the victim.
So relay the information dispassionately. Most people will reach the appropriate conclusion.

* Have I ever received an infraction here for personally attacking Anita? No. Has she received them for personally attacking me and others? Yes, and she's been suspended multiple times for it.

* Have I ever called her on the phone? No. Has she harassed me on the phone against me expressed wishes? Yes.

* Have I threatened a lawsuit or police action against her? No. Has she done the same to me? Yes.

* Have I ever contacted her against her wishes? No. Has she ever contacted me against my wishes? Yes. Repeatedly. Dozens of times.

* Have I ever brought her family into it? No. Has she? Yes. She posted here, "Oh, so adultery is fine in your eyes, as long as it is done by someone who thinks of themselves as a skeptic. I hope Jim Carr's children won't be embarrassed about their dad when they grow up." Just yesterday she commented on my wife and family on my YouTube, just a day after I told her I was looking to a civil no-contact order.

And yet I am repeatedly accused of obsession and bullying. If you want to compare RSL's reactions to mine, you can start with his direct interactions with Sylvia. When they reach the level of mine and contain the same public comments about my family in various places on the web, harassing phone calls and e-mails, and threats of lawsuits and police action, then we'll talk.
Just because Robert hasn't crossed swords with SB doesn't mitigate the probability that at least some folks are going to see you as snarky, and extrapolate from that an ulterior motive for that snarkiness.


Yes, I do come across as overbearing. I refer you to the list of actions directed at myself above and ask yourself who is actually the overbearing one?[
That's the point -- allow VfF to make all the missteps. All you need do is report them without editorializing.

That's certainly one approach, but it's not the approach I've chosen to take. I'm an advocate of a position. That's my style. We can argue until the cows come home about what's more effective, but neither of us will have concrete evidence. That people listen and respond to those who argue with passion is evident to anyone who watches the various cable channels or listens to political radio. That's not to say people don't also listen to NPR, but I don't think you are anyone has the basis to say that my techniques are without merit. You may not like them, but that's another matter.
Point taken. It's your site and your life. You can take constructive criticism on board or disregard it. My point is that your position ought to be credible and be seen as credible. My experience, such as it is, suggests that you could take some small steps to improve that credibility, that's all.

In the end I do not care what happens to Anita personally, and she's the only possible "victim" of my website. There is nothing on my site that is untrue. There is nothing not in response to information she put forth publicly. I'm doing nothing unethical or illegal. Nobody, and I mean nobody else could possibly be hurt by my site.

Can you say the same for the woman who was telling people that apricot seeds, which are poisonous, can cure cancer?
Probably not. All I'm suggesting is that you leaven your response to VfF with some common sense and perhaps a little levity.


M.
 
Moochie, I want to commend you for the respectful way in which you put your ideas across in the above post.

And with regards specifically to your response to UncaYimmy's point 3, I agree.
 
Gee, over 320 postings in a thread about VfF, and she is still on suspension and una ble to post anything herself. She seems to get tons of verbage and attention, without even needing to post anything here herself. That goes counter to the concept of "When she's quiet, my board and the VFF threads here are quiet". She can't get any quieter than being suspended for several weeks, and yet the banter about her continues unabated. Not that I am complaining, as I find the whole thing quite entertaining. VfF has become almost a soap opera for me. She is a certifiable wackjob, but I am compelled to tune in to see what fantastic claim or excuse she will come up with next. But it does make one wonder about who is encouraging whom.

It should be obvious from my sig that I not only am a member of StopVfF, I am a supporter of it as well. I may occasionally question a few aspects of the methods UncaYimmy uses on the site, but I support the purpose of the site, and the reasons for having it. Keep up the good work, UncaYimmy, even if some of us do occasionally disagree with some of the methods used. I think the service you are providing is a beneficial one.
 
So, I guess we will have to suffer through several walls of text when she returns and comments about everything said about her while she was away? That should keep this thread alive for a few more months, at least. :D She is probably already writing her responses, so she can just copy and paste them into the editor ready for posting. :D
 
So, I guess we will have to suffer through several walls of text when she returns and comments about everything said about her while she was away? That should keep this thread alive for a few more months, at least. :D She is probably already writing her responses, so she can just copy and paste them into the editor ready for posting. :D


I'll bet Brisbane to an old black billy that this prediction is 100% correct.

Unfortunately I think predictions based on bitter experience are ineligible for the MDC.
 
When I begun investigating my experience of feeling health information and its in many cases unexplainable accuracy- Anita

She's a quack pot.
 

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