MLM

[NewtonTrino]

Well, this whole thing has decended into a perverse, irrefutable circularity:

A-if you work hard you'll make money.
B-what about these people that didn't make money?
A-they must not have worked hard
B-how do you know?
A-they didn't make money...

But I bet they spent a lot of money on motivational tapes, books and seminars!! So maybe someone somewhere got to make some money. yay!

 

[icerat]

Well, this whole thing has decended into a perverse, irrefutable circularity:

A-if you work hard you'll make money.
B-what about these people that didn't make money?
A-they must not have worked hard
B-how do you know?
A-they didn't make money...

If you're going to just make stuff up and argue with yourself, it would be much more efficient just to use a mirror.

B-how do you know?
A-they tell you

Which part of 50% don't even place an order is it so hard for you to understand? Or are you claiming these people are out there, night after night, for a year - having bought no products to try or demo, no brochures, no catalogues, no DVDs etc etc ... but they're working hard! And then give up and decide not to renew since it doesn't work ....

Is that the scenario you'd have us believe?

 

[NewtonTrino]

If you're going to just make stuff up and argue with yourself, it would be much more efficient just to use a mirror.

B-how do you know?
A-they tell you

Which part of 50% don't even place an order is it so hard for you to understand? Or are you claiming these people are out there, night after night, for a year - having bought no products to try or demo, no brochures, no catalogues, no DVDs etc etc ... but they're working hard! And then give up and decide not to renew since it doesn't work ....

Is that the scenario you'd have us believe?

This rebuttal doesn't even make sense.

 

[icerat]

He made up a straw man theory about how we know people aren't working.

His theory makes no sense in the light of both published and unpublished data.

 

[NewtonTrino]

He made up a straw man theory about how we know people aren't working.

His theory makes no sense in the light of both published and unpublished data.

Neither does your interpretation. The simple fact of the matter is that we don't have very accurate statistics because they aren't released. However, most of us have seen how this business works on the ground and it's not pretty.

Again, come back here and spout when you've made some significant money from this. Until then you're yet another shill for a scam.

 

[icerat]

Neither does your interpretation. The simple fact of the matter is that we don't have very accurate statistics because they aren't released.

There's plenty of accurate statistics available, you simply choose to ignore them

Again, come back here and spout when you've made some significant money from this. Until then you're yet another shill for a scam.

So one person making "significant money" is all it needs to turn you around? Yeah right ....

 

[NewtonTrino]

There's plenty of accurate statistics available, you simply choose to ignore them

References?

So one person making "significant money" is all it needs to turn you around? Yeah right ....

It would sure help. So far nobody who makes any significant money has showed up to debate here. Where are all of these successful people? Where are the ones who set a $100 a month goal and are succeeding at it? Shouldn't there be thousands of these people online?

Don't you think it's a little odd?

 

[icerat]

References?

mentioned often already.

It would sure help. So far nobody who makes any significant money has showed up to debate here. Where are all of these successful people? Where are the ones who set a $100 a month goal and are succeeding at it? Shouldn't there be thousands of these people online?

This forum has 23,405 members.
World's population = 6.8 billion
% of world's population on JREF forums = 0.00034%

Total number of Amway Platinums approx 30,000
0.00034% of 30,000 = 0.1

Everything else be equal, you should expect 1 platinum or above to have joined when membership is tenfold current levels.

Take active JREF membership and you've got a long wait .....

Try Facebook, plenty of Diamonds and above there.

 

[NewtonTrino]

mentioned often already.

You lie.

This forum has 23,405 members.
World's population = 6.8 billion
% of world's population on JREF forums = 0.00034%

Total number of Amway Platinums approx 30,000
0.00034% of 30,000 = 0.1

Everything else be equal, you should expect 1 platinum or above to have joined when membership is tenfold current levels.

Take active JREF membership and you've got a long wait .....

Try Facebook, plenty of Diamonds and above there.

But I'm not talking about platinums. Where are all the $100 earners?

Although frankly I don't consider platinums successful. They'd do better working a real job from what I can tell. Maybe you should find some and bring them here to talk about their business in more detail.

Thought not.

 

[icerat]

You lie.

here is just one post where I stated the sources

But I'm not talking about platinums. Where are all the $100 earners?

Let's see .... there's at most a million english speaking IBOs.

Half of them never even place an order (woodward et al vs quixtar [that's called a source by the way]), let alone make an effort to make $100. So we're down to 500,000.

0.00034% of that? 1.7 .... well gee, hi there NT, how ya doin!

Although frankly I don't consider platinums successful. They'd do better working a real job from what I can tell. Maybe you should find some and bring them here to talk about their business in more detail.

Why? So you can call them liars?

Thought not.

You got one thought correct, well done.

So why don't you go to places where you know there are IBOs?

Over 10000 of them here - http://www.facebook.com/AmwayGlobal

 

[NewtonTrino]

here is just one post where I stated the sources

Link didn't work for me.

Let's see .... there's at most a million english speaking IBOs.

Half of them never even place an order (woodward et al vs quixtar [that's called a source by the way]), let alone make an effort to make $100. So we're down to 500,000.

0.00034% of that? 1.7 .... well gee, hi there NT, how ya doin!

Not impressive.

Why? So you can call them liars?

If they aren't willing to talk about gross, net and how much taxes they pay then yeah, I'm going to call them out. Find me 5 platinums who make a decent profit and I'll be mighty impressed. Good luck with that scammer boy.

You got one thought correct, well done.

So why don't you go to places where you know there are IBOs?

Over 10000 of them here - http://www.facebook.com/AmwayGlobal

If the business is so great why aren't they coming here? Perhaps because someone who's actually a skeptic would be retarded to get involved with one of the biggest scams every run?

 

[icerat]

Link didn't work for me.

Works for me.

Not impressive.

The percent of people who visit JREF is what it is.

If the business is so great why aren't they coming here?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHOHOHOHOHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHOHOHOHOHAHAHAHAHAHAHOHOHOHOHOHO!!!!!!

That was pretty damn funny!

 

[NewtonTrino]

That was pretty damn funny!

I don't get why it's funny. I'm out and out saying that Amway and almost all distributors that have organizations are scammers. Yet nobody except for you seems to dispute that. This isn't really a laughing matter for me because I've directly seen the damage that this dangerous scam/cult does to people. You are one of the brainwashed and I don't expect you to recover anytime soon. Maybe someday you'll come back here and laugh about your support for this scam.

Again where are the people that are successful? You have claimed there are many people who set a $100 profit goal and meet it. Please bring them around, you should have no problem finding thousands of these people.
Except for one thing, they are a figment of your imagination which is why you have to constantly cover for them.

Keep in mind I know this scam from the inside.

 

[icerat]

NT,
There has been at least half a dozen real live books published by real live people, from historians to business academics to psychologists - all independent and praising Amway - and interviewing dozens and dozens of the people you claim don't exist.

Here is a list of thousands of Amway Diamonds and above, by definition representing tens of thousands of Platinums.

I've provided you with another link to over 10000 rank and file IBOs on Facebook, including many successful ones.

People you say don't exist

Here's another link, one to dozens of magazines from around the world, providing the stories of hundreds and names of thousands who have succeeded with Amway just the last few years alone - from people making a few hundred bucks extra to people buying private jets

people you claim don't exist

Here's ten videos of people succeeding with Amway, including a guy who says he joined to make $500/mth.

more people you claim don't exist

I've made money with Amway, you just call me a liar. And your "evidence" that Amway doesn't work? JREF isn't full of successful Amway people! Even the statistics there are clear - you would only expect ONE Amway rep to be on this board!

But nope, you don't care. You saw some dirt in a tiny corner of one tiny room of one tiny house in the world of Amway - and nothing like a few facts are going to get in the way of your opinion!

And guess what NT - nobody cares

 

[NewtonTrino]

NT,
There has been at least half a dozen real live books published by real live people, from historians to business academics to psychologists - all independent and praising Amway - and interviewing dozens and dozens of the people you claim don't exist.

Good point, obviously they aren't trying to cash in by selling books to amway distributors right?

Here is a list of thousands of Amway Diamonds and above, by definition representing tens of thousands of Platinums.

Yet there is no evidence about how much profit any of these people make.

I've provided you with another link to over 10000 rank and file IBOs on Facebook, including many successful ones.

Facebook doesn't audit income or profit. Please lets keep this to real sources of data that are indepedently verifiable.

People you say don't exist

Again, documentation on how much profit they make and how many hours they work. It's important to be very specific. This information isn't available as far as I know.

Here's another link, one to dozens of magazines from around the world, providing the stories of hundreds and names of thousands who have succeeded with Amway just the last few years alone - from people making a few hundred bucks extra to people buying private jets

Again, not verifiable. These are nothing but anecdotes. If I signed up for amway today I could easily represent a lifestyle far beyond my amway income.

people you claim don't exist

And again which you haven't shown to exist either. Facebook? Are you really bleeping serious?

Here's ten videos of people succeeding with Amway, including a guy who says he joined to make $500/mth.

more people you claim don't exist

Again, not verifiable. Want to send an indepedent auditor over to my company? Let's find a diamond willing to play that game. You won't because THEY ARE SCAMMERS. Seriously put up, or shut up.

I've made money with Amway, you just call me a liar. And your "evidence" that Amway doesn't work? JREF isn't full of successful Amway people! Even the statistics there are clear - you would only expect ONE Amway rep to be on this board!

You haven't substantiated any money claims. In fact the claims you have made about money are extremely lame.

But nope, you don't care. You saw some dirt in a tiny corner of one tiny room of one tiny house in the world of Amway - and nothing like a few facts are going to get in the way of your opinion!

And guess what NT - nobody cares

Then give us some verifiable facts. This is like the homepaths claiming they've got the magic juice and we should believe them "because".

Find me a diamond willing to be independently audited and we'll have something to talk about. However, every diamond I've ever talked to turns into a used car salesmen as soon as real verification of their business comes up. Why is this? Maybe it's because... THEY'RE FREAKIN SCAMMERS!!

Seriously, bring something better than facebook to the table if you want to have a chance here. There are plenty of full churches on Sunday but it doesn't mean Jesus rose from the dead. Just because a bunch of delusional amway morons think they're making money doesn't make it so.

 

[icerat]

Ok, so the company does sales of $8.4 billion.
There are tens of thousands of people recognized as getting incomes, before retail profits, averaging $50,000/yr and up.
There are thousands of people recognized as getting incomes, before retail profits, averaging $150,000/yr and up.
There are people on record in print and in video as saying they are profiting.
There are people on record in print and in video as saying they have been able to leave their jobs.
There are people on record in print and in video as saying they've been able to buy things like private jets.
There are independently audited court affidavits in bankruptcy and divorce proceedings showing people profiting hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.
There are people, like me, on record right here on JREF as saying they've been profitable in the Amway business.

But none of these people exist, says Newton Trino. Why? Because they won't come into this little corner of the internet world where an anonymous internet poster is demanding they publish their private financial records to the world.

You are truly delusional.

 

[NewtonTrino]

First off let me say that I know some people do make money in amway. I'm not claiming that nobody can make money. What I'm claiming is that this money is exagerrated and that most people in amway make very little compared to the work they put in.

Ok, so the company does sales of $8.4 billion.

How does that relate to the profitability of individual distributors?

There are tens of thousands of people recognized as getting incomes, before retail profits, averaging $50,000/yr and up.

But there is no available information on how much profit they make. Income != Profit. Simple concept but it gets by a lot of amway people

There are thousands of people recognized as getting incomes, before retail profits, averaging $150,000/yr and up.

I don't dispute that people can become diamond and make this money (although we still aren't talking profit). However the amount of people who reach this level (which still isn't all that great in terms of income) is miniscule. There are by definition thousands of people needed in an organization to do this and I think most of the time this is a net negative game for people, especially when you include tools. Again you can't prove otherwise because you have ZERO statistics on actual profitibility of IBO's.

There are people on record in print and in video as saying they are profiting.

Oh, I know the tool kingpins are pulling in profits!

There are people on record in print and in video as saying they have been able to leave their jobs.

What does that even mean? Anyway I don't dispute that climbing to the top of the ladder gets you money hats. They're just unethical scumbag money hats.

There are people on record in print and in video as saying they've been able to buy things like private jets.

To my knowledge nobody at that level is not involved with selling tools. Again we disagree on whether it's ethical to sell this brainwashing crap.

There are independently audited court affidavits in bankruptcy and divorce proceedings showing people profiting hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.
There are people, like me, on record right here on JREF as saying they've been profitable in the Amway business.

Again, I'm not saying nobody can make money. I'm just saying the claims are exagerrated and you can't prove otherwise. The burden of proof is on you and this is pretty much all anecdotes. It would be very simple for amway to collect a few statistics from all IBO's a release comprehensive reports on profitibility. Why don't they do this? Oh yeah, it's a SCAM!

But none of these people exist, says Newton Trino. Why? Because they won't come into this little corner of the internet world where an anonymous internet poster is demanding they publish their private financial records to the world.

You are truly delusional.

All I'm asking for is ONE diamond business to be independently audited. Hell this can be anonymously as long as the auditor is a professional. I'll even submit my company to the same thing.

They'll never do it because it would expose the scam. The only delusional one here is the person who's been brainwashed into thinking that "network marketing" is anything but a pyramid scam with a pretty face.

 

[maximara]

And you seriously compare that to a business opportunity that says if you want to make $150,000/yr you're going to have to put in 5,000hrs work?

Considering that 5000 hrs/52 weeks = 96.1538 hrs/week this does make this constant 20h/wk you are throwing around suspect.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Keep in mind that amway distributors may CLAIM to only work so many hours a week. However the reality is that they warp their entire lives around the concept and are constantly on the lookout for recruits. It's a complete personality change akin to joining a hardcore religious cult with obnoxious recruiting like scientology.

 

[maximara]

But there is no available information on how much profit they make. Income != Profit. Simple concept but it gets by a lot of amway people

Another problem is that because people don't understand the differences gross != gross profit (gross margin) as the IRS has restrictions on what can be considered a business as opposed to a hobby as seen in Chapter 3: Examination Techniques for Specific Industries (Direct Sellers) which only give a barest thumbnail sketch and like nearly everything the IRS does with the public may not be entirely correct.