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MLM

bookitty said:
Creepy. It explains his style but it doesn't explain why he has no supporters. Where are the other "happy" MLM-ers? This is a 300+ post thread that has gone on for months. No one else has stepped forward to say that it works for them or someone that they know.
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I actually did receive a couple of PMs from pro-MLMers. They advised me it was a pointless use of time to be participating in this thread.

I agreed :D
 
tyr_13 said:
Besides that, legal or not MLM does have many of the same exact problems as pyramid schemes.
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Yes.

First off, who the hell likes Amway products?
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Nobody I personally know. Though there are anecdotes that sometimes there was a particular product they liked and could only get it through Amway, despite not caring for Amway otherwise.
 
Richard Masters said:
Yes.
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such as?

Nobody I personally know. Though there are anecdotes that sometimes there was a particular product they liked and could only get it through Amway, despite not caring for Amway otherwise.
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Yup, there's been a real of issue of obnoxious reps causing people not to buy products they would otherwise want. In North America now, anyone can purchase off the website, the volume is shared amongst active reps.
 
icerat said:
such as?
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Promises of fast money; considerable risk; saturation.

Yup, there's been a real of issue of obnoxious reps causing people not to buy products they would otherwise want. In North America now, anyone can purchase off the website, the volume is shared amongst active reps.
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If anyone can purchase off the website, then what advantage is there to buying from a representative?
 
Richard Masters said:
Promises of fast money; considerable risk; saturation.
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1. promises of fast money are not inherent to the model, indeed I think the majority if not all DSA members and major MLMs go out of their way to say it takes considerable time and effort. Not to say people don't ignore that, but governments in the US, UK, and Australia have all said they have few complaints about that type of problem from DSA affiliated companies

2. what type of risk, and compared to what?

3. all businesses have market saturation as a potential issue. Indeed, most businesses aim for it! :D

If anyone can purchase off the website, then what advantage is there to buying from a representative?
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save on shipping, personalised advice, negotiate price etc
The goal of most IBOs though is to get everyone buying through the website - it's a lot less work! But if you initially attracted them as a customer, you get a percentage.
 
NewtonTrino said:
Arguing with Icerat about MLM is like arguing with the pope about catholicism.
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I dunno. I think the Pope at least understands how Catholicism as a system works, though he may be reluctant to admit the things that don't work.

I can't say the same for anyone who uses the word "success" and "mlm" in the same sentence without a negating word.
 
icerat said:
1. promises of fast money are not inherent to the model, indeed I think the majority if not all DSA members and major MLMs go out of their way to say it takes considerable time and effort. Not to say people don't ignore that, but governments in the US, UK, and Australia have all said they have few complaints about that type of problem from DSA affiliated companies
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I've just skimmed this thread and have no experience with the MLM businesses discussed herein. I was, however, recruited by a financial planning business that operated on a similar model. Join up, try to sell insurance and other assorted BS to family and friends, then recruit people to do the same. You give your sales to the guy who recruited you, your recruits pay you...on and on.

But the statement you made about fast money is just laughable. There's a difference between a company satisfying a legal requirement on a web-page or publication so they can avoid lawsuit and one that is honest about their dealings.

No recruiter for any of these scam operations runs up and says, "hey, do you want to work your ass off for limited reward and dubious prospects for success?"

It's all about some housewife in Texas making $150,000 a year and YOU TOO could do the same if you just make an initial investment, buy our sales material...etc.

It's a lot like Scientology, actually (or, to be more accurate, Scientology is a lot like the MLMs).

Edit: By the way, I went to this indoctrination ceremony for the financial service deal at the request of a friend (chick I wanted to...you know). They needed to bring three people to move forward with the program. This was around 2006-2007. After the presentation I was taken into someone's office so they could tell me about the awesome financial opportunities. His little presentation was so insanely fact-free that I finally started arguing with him when he told me that social security would go under in the next five years so we needed to talk our "clients" into putting all of their retirement money into mutual funds. They kicked me out when I told them I was a lawyer.

As the economy went to **** I thought about this little cult of bastards talking people into dumping their money into the stock market. I wonder how many people lost their life's savings because of that BS.
 
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TraneWreck said:
No recruiter for any of these scam operations runs up and says, "hey, do you want to work your ass off for limited reward and dubious prospects for success?"
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Quite possibly true .... for the scams ... because they're essentially dependent on getting as many people to join up as fast as possible in order to make money before the whole thing collapses.

If you have a legitimate business though, that kind of approach has the opposite effect. In legitimate MLMs you don't make money by getting people to join. You don't even make much money from getting them to buy product or product(s) once. Money comes from developing a large network of repeat customers and a number of business partners who help you develop it. Scam people and you don't get repeat business.

It's all about some housewife in Texas making $150,000 a year and YOU TOO could do the same if you just make an initial investment, buy our sales material...etc.
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And you seriously compare that to a business opportunity that says if you want to make $150,000/yr you're going to have to put in 5,000hrs work? :confused:
 
icerat said:
And you seriously compare that to a business opportunity that says if you want to make $150,000/yr you're going to have to put in 5,000hrs work? :confused:
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Again, I would stress the difference between official company policy written to avoid lawsuit and how the product is conveyed on a personal level by recruiters.
 
TraneWreck said:
Again, I would stress the difference between official company policy written to avoid lawsuit and how the product is conveyed on a personal level by recruiters.
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20hrs/wk for 5 years is what is often conveyed by "recruiters". It's often criticised because it doesn't happen much - very, very few people put in that work in 5 years after joining. Indeed the average person who reaches that type of income takes nearly 10 years to do it.

Now, I'm not saying there's not idiots saying dumb things, there are (though hopefully fewer these days). Dateline got one idiot saying something stupid a few years ago - but even he was talking about a couple of years work. While still inaccurate hype, that's not exactly "just sign here, buy this, and you'll be rich!"
 
icerat said:
20hrs/wk for 5 years is what is often conveyed by "recruiters". It's often criticised because it doesn't happen much - very, very few people put in that work in 5 years after joining. Indeed the average person who reaches that type of income takes nearly 10 years to do it.
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So give us some numbers. How many people do the 20 a week for 5 years and strike it rich? And what kind of income can they expect if they do this?

Also do you believe that if you put in 20hrs a week for 5 years that it will make you succesful in amway?

Now, I'm not saying there's not idiots saying dumb things, there are (though hopefully fewer these days). Dateline got one idiot saying something stupid a few years ago - but even he was talking about a couple of years work. While still inaccurate hype, that's not exactly "just sign here, buy this, and you'll be rich!"
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As I recall he said he makes $250k per year but I'm not sure if he specified the time it took. He also didn't breakdown where the money is coming from and seemed very vague about it. Mostly likely was lying.
 
NewtonTrino said:
So give us some numbers. How many people do the 20 a week for 5 years and strike it rich? And what kind of income can they expect if they do this?
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According to some stats I saw a few years ago, the average time it took someone to reach Diamond in North American was 9.something years. On the other hand I took a database compiled by an Amway critic of a few hundred diamonds from around the world and the median time was 5. something years, but the range went from 1 year to something like 20.

Note that this is from the date of registration. Listening to many Diamond "stories", as well as talking to a friend of mine (not a diamond) who has been in the Amway business for 30 years and has several hundred Diamond in his downline, the typical pattern for people who reach the level is they register, don't do much, spend 1-2 yrs focused and qualify Platinum, take a break of indeterminate length, spend 1-2yrs focused and qualify Emerald, take another break, then 1-2 years focused and qualify Diamond. In his opinion they pretty much *all* did 2-5 years of 20hrs/wk, they just spread it out of different lengths of time, and had periods doing less than that where they simply "maintained" where they were.

Now I don't think "strike it rich" is an accurate description, as that implies a great deal more luck is involved than there is. It's hard work. For the majority of them this 20hrs/wk is being done on top of their existing careers, generally at least until Emerald, and often beyond. 20hrs/wk on top of what you're doing is damn hard to maintain.

Anyway, latest US stats put about 1.08% of IBOs in 2008 at "Platinum" level or higher. Average platinum income back in 2005 was about $50/yr, there's been new incentives added since then. Average "Diamond" in 2005 made a $150,000/yr (again, many bonuses added since then). 0.142% were Diamond or above in 2008. That's of current IBOs of course, and 50% of the IBOs who joined in 2008 won't have even placed an order, let alone worked, and obviously don't renew. Another little under 20% place at least one order but don't renew.

Also do you believe that if you put in 20hrs a week for 5 years that it will make you succesful in amway?
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Assuming you actually learn what to do and do it (rather than spend 20hrs/week thinking about it), I'd be very surprised if you weren't. I've never met anyone who has done that at hasn't. Indeed 3 times now I've seen informal surveys done of seminars of several thousand attendees, and those who had done the recommended work for the last 6 months consecutively were asked what "level" they were, and virtually all were at least at the start of platinum qualification (you have to maintain a certain level of sales volume for at least 6 months to get the "title")

As I recall he said he makes $250k per year but I'm not sure if he specified the time it took. He also didn't breakdown where the money is coming from and seemed very vague about it. Mostly likely was lying.
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Agreed. Full of it.
 
Well, this whole thing has decended into a perverse, irrefutable circularity:

A-if you work hard you'll make money.
B-what about these people that didn't make money?
A-they must not have worked hard
B-how do you know?
A-they didn't make money...
 
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