When does an embryo / fetus become human, and why?

[Belz...]

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. I think discussions like this actually drag the entire debate down to a level it should never get to. Because the fact is that after a normal pregnancy period, the likely result is a healthy, intelligent human being. It will be more than what it is now. Arguing that it's ok to kill it, NOW, rather than ... NOW + 1, seems to me to be nothing more than very poor rationalizing. Semantics, nitpicking.. you name it. I am not sure of the correct term, but it strikes me as loads of all that. It will be a human being, if allowed to develop. People just use the physical details in order to rationalize away and lessen their conscience with regards to it, IMO.

Who's nitpicking ? If you allow a sperm and an egg to meet, it will become a human being, if allowed to devellop. Of course, that argument is going nowhere.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Others have touched on this, but my thoughts are, why the question " When does an embryo / fetus become human, and why? " rather than " What makes a human special and deserving of life, regardless of age ? "

Of course I understand the human bias in this regard, but I suggest the only reason we are special, is because we can imagine we are...

 

[westprog]

Well if you cant see the difference between being fed by someone and feeding off someone then thats fine, as I said it is an opinion.

The only difference I see is in which point of view you take.

There are always thought experiments which make any sure-fire moral rule dubious.

 

[TimCallahan]

Who's nitpicking ? If you allow a sperm and an egg to meet, it will become a human being, if allowed to devellop. Of course, that argument is going nowhere.

Well, it has a chance of developing into a human being. The odds against it becoming a human being are anywhere from 50% o 85%.

 

[Cactus Wren]

The first part is actually somewhat irrelevant. Sometimes in cases of child support, the father doesn't even know the child exists until the kid is already 5 years old or so. AND the only thing the mother has to do to bypass this is say that she doesn't know who the father IS in order to put the kid up for adoption... you do know I'm talking about casual relationships, right? This isn't about a child that was born while they were actually in a relationship... or that's not what I'm talking about.

As to the second part -- equal responsibility without equal choice, yes and that is exactly my problem. The mother's responsibility is almost completely her own choice. On the other hand, the father's responsibility IS ALSO completely dependant upon the mother's choice, and not on his own (other than the fact that he had sex, of course).

Do you see the problem?

I link this issue to abortion merely because it is one of the choices the woman has... and taking away that choice would also make the law more consistent and fair. The adoption thing I guess is a side issue that is mixed in, I suppose.

Where's the inconsistency? For the entire period that a man's body is physically involved, the choice is his. For the entire period that a woman's body is involved, the choice is hers.

And, to be blunt, if I knew I was at risk of creating a person every time I experienced orgasm, I'd be damn careful where, when, and in what company I climaxed.

 

[Belz...]

Well, it has a chance of developing into a human being. The odds against it becoming a human being are anywhere from 50% o 85%.

So you think all sperm and all eggs should be given a chance ?

 

[blutoski]

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. I think discussions like this actually drag the entire debate down to a level it should never get to. Because the fact is that after a normal pregnancy period, the likely result is a healthy, intelligent human being. It will be more than what it is now. Arguing that it's ok to kill it, NOW, rather than ... NOW + 1, seems to me to be nothing more than very poor rationalizing. Semantics, nitpicking.. you name it. I am not sure of the correct term

It's called "[fallacy of the corrupt continuum]."

, but it strikes me as loads of all that. It will be a human being, if allowed to develop.

Agreed. But this is the potentiality argument.

Here's a concrete example of why it's fallacious: my childhood friend felt that since ten year olds will become 19 year olds if allowed to develop, therefore they should be allowed to buy and drink alcohol just like a 19 year old. They should be considered the equivalent of the thing they are likely to become.

Engaging the Continuum fallacy mentioned above: since a person is allowed to drink when they are 19, but not allowed to drink when they are 19 minus one day, legal drinking ages are obviously arbitrary rationalizations of prejudice and people should be of legal drinking age starting at conception.

, People just use the physical details in order to rationalize away and lessen their conscience with regards to it, IMO.

I also want to point out that I do now consider myself pro-choice. I would not change existing laws or anything of the sort. It's too late to put that toothpaste back in the tube. I just don't like it, at all, and I hope that one day we, as a people, really wake up to how horrible it is what we are doing, and CHOOSE to stop doing so.

And that looks like [appeal to popularity].

 

[kurious_kathy]

I have always felt viability was the most rational point to draw any line. Purely opinion of course. When the fetus can survive outside the body it can be classified as a person. Before that it is living in someone and off someone. A parasitic organism. It is a very complex teratoma. And if it is living in you and off you then it's you. And, as a part of you, it is up to you what happens to it.

No, I do not believe you, the baby is a human being at conception and just becasue God uses a man and woman to make this baby does not mean it isn't a whole person who needs the chance to live. God is the one who should have control, not us.

And I must add I hope and pray this country will repent of having these abortions, it really is murder and horrible. I was once so blind to believe a babies soul did not enter their body during pregnancy, but now I know I was wrong and I really regret my abortions. Jesus forgave me, but it still hurts and I hope I can help others see how wrong it truly is. If I knew then what I know now I would never have done such a horrible thing. Do people even realize how much they will regret their abortions, the affects are for life and it's not okay. I have lived with depression my whole life and this is because I am post abortive.

 

[Trent Wray]

No, I do not believe you, the baby is a human being at conception and just becasue God uses a man and woman to make this baby does not mean it isn't a whole person who needs the chance to live. God is the one who should have control, not us.

And I must add I hope and pray this country will repent of having these abortions, it really is murder and horrible. I was once so blind to believe a babies soul did not enter their body during pregnancy, but now I know I was wrong and I really regret my abortions. Jesus forgave me, but it still hurts and I hope I can help others see how wrong it truly is. If I knew then what I know now I would never have done such a horrible thing. Do people even realize how much they will regret their abortions, the affects are for life and it's not okay. I have lived with depression my whole life and this is because I am post abortive.

Do you take any medication for your depression?

 

[kurious_kathy]

Others have touched on this, but my thoughts are, why the question " When does an embryo / fetus become human, and why? " rather than " What makes a human special and deserving of life, regardless of age ? "

Of course I understand the human bias in this regard, but I suggest the only reason we are special, is because we can imagine we are...

The Bible says God created us in his image and that we are dearly loved by our creator. All life is precious because it is a gift from our loving heavenly Father who wants us to know him. Jesus is the only one who completes us, I guess it makes sense knowing he created us for his glory.

Sometimes it's still so hard for me to understand that kind of love. Even after all the horrible sins I've committed, he loves and forgives me. No other man could ever love me this way.

 

[kurious_kathy]

Do you take any medication for your depression?

Not anymore. I came off zoloft 5+ years ago. I had gotten so down I tried to go back on a low dose, but it gives me a headache now so forget it. I just don't think anti-depressants are the solution anymore. I need help every day from God to sustain me. The weird thing is sometimes after a good cry I feel a supernatural release from the depression, but I do have this constant stuggle.

As for the OP topic, it does get to me as I have a lot of sorrow over this one. Is the reason someone brought it up because they have had some of the same struggles as I have had with this subject? There are babies being aborted everyday that are just crying out to let them live, is anyone listening??

 

[Trent Wray]

Not anymore. I came off zoloft 5+ years ago. I had gotten so down I tried to go back on a low dose, but it gives me a headache now so forget it. I just don't think anti-depressants are the solution anymore. I need help every day from God to sustain me. The weird thing is sometimes after a good cry I feel a supernatural release from the depression, but I do have this constant stuggle.

As for the OP topic, it does get to me as I have a lot of sorrow over this one. Is the reason someone brought it up because they have had some of the same struggles as I have had with this subject? There are babies being aborted everyday that are just crying out to let them live, is anyone listening??

Have you considered a different anti-depressant perhaps?

 

[kurious_kathy]

Have you considered a different anti-depressant perhaps?

Yes I have but I am just reluctant. I had a friend who told me about something new that has helped her, but I'm just not sure if I want to even consider it anymore. I really hate drugs now, and even if they are for health reasons, it is hard for me to resort to any of them. I am a chronic pain patient so my medication for that I believe adds to my depression and mood swings. Can anyone tell me how to cope with degenerative disk disease because I'm having a rough time of it. This is constant cycle of pain, fatigue, and depression and it just never goes away. I think I'll be in a wheel chair young too, but I am fighting that as long as I can.

It's funny when I look at the OP topic again and think about how even from before my birth God knew me, and he knew all about these struggles I would have, and even though life isn't easy I know God will never leave me or forsake me, and I'm really glad for that.

 

[Ausmerican]

No, I do not believe you, the baby is a human being at conception and just becasue God uses a man and woman to make this baby does not mean it isn't a whole person who needs the chance to live. God is the one who should have control, not us.

Wow the fundy doesn't believe me. Color me crushed. This obviously means my opinion was wrong and I am morally bankrupt.
Oh wait....just remembered, it actually means there is a good chance my opinion is rational.

 

[TimCallahan]

No, I do not believe you, the baby is a human being at conception and just becasue God uses a man and woman to make this baby does not mean it isn't a whole person who needs the chance to live. God is the one who should have control, not us.

And I must add I hope and pray this country will repent of having these abortions, it really is murder and horrible. I was once so blind to believe a babies soul did not enter their body during pregnancy, but now I know I was wrong and I really regret my abortions. Jesus forgave me, but it still hurts and I hope I can help others see how wrong it truly is. If I knew then what I know now I would never have done such a horrible thing. Do people even realize how much they will regret their abortions, the affects are for life and it's not okay. I have lived with depression my whole life and this is because I am post abortive.

Okay, Kathy, if a fertilized ovum - a zygote, a single cell - is a human being, I assume you believe this human being has a soul. Thus ensoulment takes place at conception.

If that is the case, then at least 50% of human beings with souls don't make it through the first month o pregnancy. That's the most conservative estimate. The most radical is that 85% don't make it. In an article that appeared in Christianity Today several years ago, a Christian doctor estimated that 65% of the fertilized ova. didn't make it past the first month of pregnancy. This is among healthy, well-nourished women, free from physical and emotional trauma, and this is spontaneous miscarriage - not induced abortion.

Going with the most conservative estimate, this would mean that God allows a system in which at least 50% of all human beings with souls experience a lifespan limited to one or two months and are never born. Do you really believe God allows such a monstrous thing?

 

[Belz...]

No, I do not believe you, the baby is a human being at conception and just becasue God uses a man and woman to make this baby does not mean it isn't a whole person who needs the chance to live.

What about sperm cells and eggs ? Do they need the chance to live ?

God is the one who should have control, not us.

And yet he isn't. Strange, isn't it ?

And I must add I hope and pray this country will repent of having these abortions, it really is murder and horrible.

In your opinion.

I was once so blind to believe a babies soul did not enter their body during pregnancy, but now I know I was wrong and I really regret my abortions.

And how did you get this revelation ?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Yes I have but I am just reluctant. I had a friend who told me about something new that has helped her, but I'm just not sure if I want to even consider it anymore. I really hate drugs now, and even if they are for health reasons, it is hard for me to resort to any of them. I am a chronic pain patient so my medication for that I believe adds to my depression and mood swings. Can anyone tell me how to cope with degenerative disk disease because I'm having a rough time of it. This is constant cycle of pain, fatigue, and depression and it just never goes away. I think I'll be in a wheel chair young too, but I am fighting that as long as I can.

It's funny when I look at the OP topic again and think about how even from before my birth God knew me, and he knew all about these struggles I would have, and even though life isn't easy I know God will never leave me or forsake me, and I'm really glad for that.

 

[TimCallahan]

. . . Going with the most conservative estimate, this would mean that God allows a system in which at least 50% of all human beings with souls experience a lifespan limited to one or two months and are never born. Do you really believe God allows such a monstrous thing?

Kathy, I really would appreciate an answer to this question. I've posed it to a number of those who believe that human status - including ensoulment - begins at conception. I have yet to hear an answer. Why don't you be the first to break the pattern?

 

[uruk]

How many fetuses do?

In any case: that's the potentiality argument I mentioned earlier.

One weakness of the potentiality argument is the premise that we treat something as the thing it might become.

The argument in practice:

P1: IF [A] can become THEN we treat [A] as if it is already
P2: [a fetus] can become [a seperate human being]
C: so we treat [a fetus] as if it were [a seperate human being] already

Here's other applications of the potentiality argument:

P1: IF [A] can become THEN we treat [A] as if it is already
P2: [a child] can become [a criminal]
C: so we treat [a child] as if it were [a criminal] already

Looks like there's something wrong with P1.

Actually there is also something wrong with P2 in the second syllogism. There are a couple of issues that makes the the second logical syllogism problematic.

Though not every fetus will become a "separate human being" it can only become either a separate human being or dead biological material. It is a binary proposition. Additionaly, by virtu of it's DNA being 50% differentiated from the host mother the fetus is technically a "separate organisim" from the mother. By virtu of it's DNA being of the human genome the fetus is "human". It can't be anything else. (i.e. cat, dog, fish, etc...)

The problem with the second syllogism is that the child may also be anything other than a criminal. (i.e an astronaut, a president, a police officer, a bum etc...)

The second premise in the second syllogism is weak compared to the second premise in the first syllogism.

 

[blutoski]

Actually there is also something wrong with P2 in the second syllogism. There are a couple of issues that makes the the second logical syllogism problematic.

Though not every fetus will become a "separate human being" it can only become either a separate human being or dead biological material. It is a binary proposition. Additionaly, by virtu of it's DNA being 50% differentiated from the host mother the fetus is technically a "separate organisim" from the mother.

Quibbling. Use a different term then: "will become a person".

By virtu of it's DNA being of the human genome the fetus is "human". It can't be anything else. (i.e. cat, dog, fish, etc...)

Agreed. I don't find it relevant (except in that the original post used this terminology, probably meaning to ask if a fetus is a "person")

The problem with the second syllogism is that the child may also be anything other than a criminal. (i.e an astronaut, a president, a police officer, a bum etc...)

The second premise in the second syllogism is weak compared to the second premise in the first syllogism.

I don't know what you mean by 'weak'. Also: I'm confident that whether a person becomes a criminal or not is a binary outcome. Either does or doesn't.