MLM

[NewtonTrino]

And that's precisely what I was doing, until my business partner and our accountant skipped the country, but that's another story.

Whoa, bad luck dude.

Though I must say I am curious to here of the multiple million dollar businesses you've built in the past decade.

In 2000 I started at a company with 30 employees and founded a new division. I helped build this division out to over 250 employees and it sold in 2005 for $35M. I came on board so that they could close a $5M deal as they were missing someone with my experience to help convince the client. I brought many of the other people who made the place successful, and yes I had an equity stake.

I then spent another couple of years at a friends company building a product that generated $40M+ in revenue. I also had an equity stake there as well.

I left that company in 2008 to found my current venture which has grown to 18 employees and $2.8M+ in revenue last year (profitable from day 1 btw). This year we are expecting $10M+ in revenue but have contracts in place for at least $3M right now.

Unfortunately I want to remain anonymous on this board but if you really want to verify this I'm sure we could find someone local from the forum to come over to my current company and check it out.

I'll even show them the company books if you can find someone with a similar size Amway business that's willing to open up theirs!

Anyway I'm not trying to sell anyone here on investing in my business. I'm just establishing a bit of credibility for my business experience.

 

[icerat]

Whoa, bad luck dude.

I knew there was some risk involved. In any case at the time the business was one of the largest of it's type in Australia, with operations in 20+ cities - and I started it with nothing, alone. I merged with another company for the potential extra growth I could get. C'est la vie. After that I got screwed over by a woman, but that too is another story too ....

Needless to say the two events combined, and the after effects of both, are why I haven't been that focused on building an Amway business, or much else for that matter. Been travelling and enjoying life and starting a family instead, though I did start another small company and sell it, profitably, to fund that, and am in the process of launching another right now.

Anyway I'm not trying to sell anyone here on investing in my business. I'm just establishing a bit of credibility for my business experience.

Well done, though I think you'd agree that's a fairly unusual resume.

 

[NewtonTrino]

I knew there was some risk involved. In any case at the time the business was one of the largest of it's type in Australia, with operations in 20+ cities - and I started it with nothing, alone. I merged with another company for the potential extra growth I could get. C'est la vie. After that I got screwed over by a woman, but that too is another story too ....

See, I told you there was some luck in success. Choose the wrong partner and bammo. Woman are a whole different thing, been there, done that.

Needless to say the two events combined, and the after effects of both, are why I haven't been that focused on building an Amway business, or much else for that matter. Been travelling and enjoying life and starting a family instead, though I did start another small company and sell it, profitably, to fund that, and am in the process of launching another right now.

Well done, though I think you'd agree that's a fairly unusual resume.

Yes, my resume is not typical. I do know quite a few other people that have had success building companies, but that's more my social circle at this point not the general population.

 

[icerat]

See, I told you there was some luck in success. Choose the wrong partner and bammo.

I don't consider it "luck". The guys were crooks, nothing to do with luck at all .... but I suspect we're just arguing semantics..

Yes, my resume is not typical. I do know quite a few other people that have had success building companies, but that's more my social circle at this point not the general population.

Oh I know many, many, many people that have built multi-million dollar enterprises. And they weren't all in Amway either

There's a discussion going on over on AmwayTalk this week and there's one member there talking about the attitude of "Amway's the only way, you're an idiot loser, whatever if you don't want to do it blah blah blah".

Pretty much every other poster, including me, disagrees with that type of "culture" and says they're not experiencing it. The one who is? He's with Britt WorldWide.

I know you don't accept it, but reality it is there really is significant differences between different Amway groups. I haven't been building an Amway business the past decade, but as you've seen I've spent an awful lot of time researching the company and business. I doubt there's too many people, if any, that have the breadth of knowledge across different Amway groups and Amway markets that I have. I had breakfast once (just 3 of us) with one of Amway's highest pins, and he really didn't know what some of the other groups were doing, and indeed some of what he thought they were doing was incorrect.

 

[NewtonTrino]

I don't consider it "luck". The guys were crooks, nothing to do with luck at all .... but I suspect we're just arguing semantics..

Them being crooks makes you unlucky.

Oh I know many, many, many people that have built multi-million dollar enterprises. And they weren't all in Amway either

There's a discussion going on over on AmwayTalk this week and there's one member there talking about the attitude of "Amway's the only way, you're an idiot loser, whatever if you don't want to do it blah blah blah".

Pretty much every other poster, including me, disagrees with that type of "culture" and says they're not experiencing it. The one who is? He's with Britt WorldWide.

I know you don't accept it, but reality it is there really is significant differences between different Amway groups. I haven't been building an Amway business the past decade, but as you've seen I've spent an awful lot of time researching the company and business. I doubt there's too many people, if any, that have the breadth of knowledge across different Amway groups and Amway markets that I have. I had breakfast once (just 3 of us) with one of Amway's highest pins, and he really didn't know what some of the other groups were doing, and indeed some of what he thought they were doing was incorrect.

My opinions there haven't changed. I would highly recommend people stay away from amway in any form.

 

[icerat]

Them being crooks makes you unlucky.

as I said, a semantic thing.

My opinions there haven't changed. I would highly recommend people stay away from amway in any form.

well, we're not entirely a world apart. I would highly recommend people stay away from from the type of amway folk you've had experience with.

 

[NewtonTrino]

well, we're not entirely a world apart. I would highly recommend people stay away from from the type of amway folk you've had experience with.

Something we agree on!

Think about it like atheists vs christians. I'm just atheist about one *more* god than them.

 

[icerat]

Something we agree on!

Think about it like atheists vs christians. I'm just atheist about one *more* god than them.

Which, since they're all just people, taken to the logical extreme this will have you (and I) disappearing into the immutable puff of logic.

 

[maximara]

FitzPatrick, Taylor et.al from PyramidSchemeAlert were posted on WP:RS for discussion and rejected as reliable sources by independent third parties.

Yet you want them to be considered anyway, somewho making me the villain, and conveniently ignoring the fact FitzPatrick has been shown to outright lie and was practically laughed out of court as an "expert" by a California judge and Taylor is blatantly dishonest in his use of statistics

The thetruthaboutamway is an overly pro-amway self-published website. It even states "this site is my personal opinions about the Amway business opportunity." Also the author misrepresents the facts

"Robert FitzPatrick is a well known anti-mlm zealot who has unilaterally decided all MLMs are illegal pyramids...." is not entirely true as the following say they are legal pyramids schemes:

Carroll, Robert Todd (2003). The Skeptic's Dictionary: A Collection of Strange Beliefs, Amusing Deceptions, and Dangerous Delusions. John Wiley & Sons. pp. 235–36

Salinger (Editor), Lawrence M. (2005). Encyclopedia of White-Collar & Corporate Crime. 2. Sage Publishing. pp. 880.

 

[maximara]

Coenen IS a fraud, but that's for another argument, the book is not published by the "scholarly arm" of Wiley, which you suddenly felt important with regards Random House.

And Carroll's book is merely his website, which is so accurate it refers to Quiztar ... not exactly a book of academic excellence. It's been discussed often on Wikipedia RS/N and the general consensus is it depends on the article and context whether it can be used as a source, but should be avoided if better sources are available.

Sorry icerat but if Xardel and Rubino simply because they are through Wiley then so are Coenen and Carroll. The door swings both ways, never mind Coenen and Carroll are backed up by a third publication by Sage.

 

[icerat]

"Robert FitzPatrick is a well known anti-mlm zealot who has unilaterally decided all MLMs are illegal pyramids...." is not entirely true as the following say they are legal pyramids schemes:

So let me get this straight. I say FitzPatrick thinks all MLMs are illegal pyramids. You quote some other people giving their opinions and that means I'm being dishonest in my appraisal of FitzPatrick's opinion?

Oh yeah, that makes sense.

Your anti-mlm obsession is damaging your brain.

Sorry icerat but if Xardel and Rubino simply because they are through Wiley then so are Coenen and Carroll. The door swings both ways, never mind Coenen and Carroll are backed up by a third publication by Sage.

Now you're being dishonest. Where did I claim Xardel and Rubino are quality sources simply because they're published by Wiley? Rubino I haven't read and have no particular opinion on. Xardel on the other is hand is absolutely a good source, since it's Professor Dominique Xardel, former head of ESSEC, one of the world's top business schools, and former head of the European Harvard Business Review. He wrote an entire book about Amway, after spending several years researching the company and industry.

But yeah, you're right and he's wrong

 

[NewtonTrino]

But yeah, you're right and he's wrong

You're finally catching on!

 

[daveprime]

Once a scam...

Of course, one need only look at this little tidbit of info to understand just how little chance there is of someone actually 'making it' in amway/quixstar:

What do these mean, specifically?
1. First, what is an "active distributor?" Amway defines an active distributor as: "one who attempted to make a retail sale, or presented the Sales and Marketing Plan, or received bonus money, or attended a company or distributor meeting in [a given] month." Therefore, out of all the possible distributors in the entire Amway business, only 41% meet these criteria as being "active." This also means that 59% of all distributors are NOT active.
Ask yourself if you want to be involved with a business where over half of all the people aren't doing anything to increase their business.

2. A "Direct-level distributor" is a distributor who also meets criteria established by Amway, including the fact that the distributor has reached at least 7500PV and has sponsored other people. Therefore, only 2% of all the active distributors meet these criteria. That translates into 2% of 41% of ALL distributors which equals 2x41 divided by 100 or 0.82%. This means that out of ALL distributors, only 0.82% qualify as a Direct-level distributor. This also means that 99.18% of ALL distributors do not qualify as a Direct-level distributor. Why are all these people not Direct distributors? Are they lazy, lost their dream, or quitters, as well?
Again, ask yourself, would you want to be involved in a company where 99.18% of all the people who start building the business are not successful at it?

From Amways sa-4400 as detailed at cocs dot com (Can't post urls for 15 posts)

 

[daveprime]

And yet each of the people brought into a 'downline' are encouraged FORCEFULLY to purchase 'tools' and attend seminars right from the get go. Typically they will buy some, attend one or two 'meets' get all pumped up, and then discover that there is very little chance of making it work for them. They then leave dissillusioned, but out all of that tool money!

Amway/Quixstar depends on this high turnover! Without it, they would lose the ability to sell, over and over again, basic 'rah-rah' materials.

What a racket!

 

[icerat]

dave
(a) Amway doesn't make any money at all from "tools"
(b) the great majority of people who join Amway don't buy any tools either
(c) what's wrong with allowing people to register to see if it's for them, and allowing them to decide it's not? Half of all college students never graduate Does that make college a bad option?
(d) what gives Hoagland, and you, the right to call someone who joined Amway to make $100/mth extra cash, and does so, a "failure"?
(e) Quixtar (which you can't even spell) hasn't existed for a couple of years, and Hoaglands site is a decade out of date. Welcome to 2010, Dave

 

[NewtonTrino]

a) mistruth - amway doesn't but amways distributors do
b) unproven
c) Pay me money to come and work at my company for a while. It's advance fee fraud silly.
d) because they are
e) Quixtar is dead long live Quixtar?

 

[icerat]

a) mistruth - amway doesn't but amways distributors do

Not a mistruth at all. He was implying the companies money comes from tool sales. Utterly false

b) unproven

I suspect, to yoiur satisfaction, unprovable. But you claim to have had the figures for tool sales, and we know from Woodward vs Quixtar the average number of people in a diamond group, so why the skepticism on this?

c) Pay me money to come and work at my company for a while. It's advance fee fraud silly.

Amway doesn't make money on membership fees, it's cost recovery only (or a loss in many instances)

d) because they are

awfully arrogant of you.

e) Quixtar is dead long live Quixtar?

long live ignorance, alas.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Not a mistruth at all. He was implying the companies money comes from tool sales. Utterly false

Nope, you are misreading him.

I suspect, to yoiur satisfaction, unprovable. But you claim to have had the figures for tool sales, and we know from Woodward vs Quixtar the average number of people in a diamond group, so why the skepticism on this?

Gimme a break.

Amway doesn't make money on membership fees, it's cost recovery only (or a loss in many instances)

When people say "Amway" they are generally referring to the distributors not the corp. I know you don't see it this way but that's how most people think. If I join up for a month, go to a function, buy some cd's and then quit someone has made money. Of course this money is nothing compared to the regular payments from the suckers who buy into the system whole hog.

awfully arrogant of you.

I never claimed I wasn't an arrogant bastard. Why the heck would I be on the jref forum if I wasn't? Have you seen the posts here

long live ignorance, alas.

This is the same lament you hear from brainwashed religous nutjobs when people don't buy their particular cult.

 

[daveprime]

dave
(a) Amway doesn't make any money at all from "tools"
(b) the great majority of people who join Amway don't buy any tools either

THAT'S CRAP. Not only do they do so, I have SEEN them do so. Perhaps not the company itself, but even if they don't make money off the tools, they live off of the back of them... Less than a year and a half ago my son almost got suckered into this cult. It took me and his mom sitting him down and making him read the sa-4099 he had been given to make him understand the truth. So don't tell me it doesn't happen, i KNOW better.

(c) what's wrong with allowing people to register to see if it's for them, and allowing them to decide it's not?

Because it is a CULT. One of the first thing my son's 'upline' tried to get him to do was to sever all contact with anyone that didn't believe in his new 'dream'. It wasn't a dream, it's a NIGHTMARE. The only people making money, at this point, are the ones at the very top of the pyramid. (And that is before the tools. Add those in and it is offensively obvious who's really making the 'big bucks'.)

They load these people (mainly late teens I bet) down with tapes, books and accessories and KATE, a voicemail system that costs them yet ANOTHER $50 or so a month.(Which they can't afford to lose.) They then want them to IMMEDIATELY attend high priced 'rallies' so they can get their thinking 'straight'. If it looks like a cult, and sounds like a cult......

(I won't even dignify comparing a REAL education with this scam with an answer.)

(d) what gives Hoagland, and you, the right to call someone who joined Amway to make $100/mth extra cash, and does so, a "failure"?

No, that is what folks like YOU call them to you "downline" when they fail to achieve their pumped up dreams. No one joins to make $100 a month and you very well KNOW it. They join with dreams of making BIG BUCKS with little real work. And who pumped up those impossible dreams? People like YOU!!

(e) Quixtar (which you can't even spell) hasn't existed for a couple of years, and Hoaglands site is a decade out of date. Welcome to 2010, Dave

Same scam, different name....

This crap takes advantage of those in our society who are on the bottom edge. Close to broke, they seek some way out of their financial delimma, and along comes Amway to finish the poor suckers off.

Here's a question for you:
How many "losers"/people have you personally seen fail at/quit this business. (Not that I really expect an honest answer.)

***Stay away from this scam. It'll chew you up, spit you out, and then call you a 'failure' for being unable to make their unworkable plan succeed.***

 

[NewtonTrino]

How many "losers"/people have you personally seen fail at/quit this business. (Not that I really expect an honest answer.)

I've personally seen hundreds of people work hard and still fail. They bought lots of tools though so someone was making money!