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Flight 93

How did body parts from all the people that boarded Flight 93 (as shown on the flight manifest) in Newark NJ get to Shanksville PA (283 miles away), 120 minutes later (which was positively identified by DNA)?
 
I know he refers to AFIP and I know that Big Al knows the AFIP data is inconclusive.

You are a fact-free troll.

How do you know what I think?

You've just made yet another unsubstantiated assertion. One of many.

An estimated 7,000 people worked at the crash site or in the resulting forensic analysis. None of these people seem to have a problem with the 9/11 Commission's description of what happened to Flight 93.

You are effectively accusing many or all of them of lying. This would be the crime of faking evidence and testimony.

Any one of them could have blown the whistle on this over the last 9 years. Many have died and could have made a death-bed statement to the press.

Nobody has.
 
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So how did the passenger's DNA get from Newark to Shanksville in 120 minutes?

ahm

You cannot presume what has not been proven. Rational adults starting with those having average intelligence know that you cannot do that and they would not allow baited or loaded or presumptuous questions to be asked of them in most contexts.

The 9/11 myth creates an exception, though.

People are willing to believe in the 9/11 myth without the normal standards of proof being applied and without the normal ways of confirming events took place being used, let alone examined or tested.

Questioning of the 9/11 myth offends those who have a vested interest in not putting the reputation of the US for common decency at risk. That, too, is based on a presumption. I do not know who or what entity or entities did 9/11 and I do not blame anyone or any entity or any country. I do not think it possible to formulate a valid hypothesis on who did 9/11 until we have a firmer grasp of what happened.

That is a much longer discussion and going there would take us off topic.

As to the topic of this thread, there's no mystery here. I know why you and Big Al are miffed. You go along, unquestioningly, with the common myth of FL 93. You can do that. What you cannot do is demand that I do the same. I require proof of each aspect of the 9/11 myth as it relates to FL 93 and will not proceed to the next layer of the deception in the absence of proof of the prior one.

Your question is no different than the question:

"When did you stop beating your spouse?"

On a good day, AW, having that penchant for defining fallacies, will know that this thread is chock full of presumption when it comes to the question of whether or not a jetliner crashed in Shanksville. I doubt AW will admit this openly, however.

Most people understand that you cannot presume what hasn't been proven when you put the question as above in the spouse beating context. That is, most people understand it is a dirty trick to ask someone when they stopped doing something for which there's no prior proof the person did that to which the "when did you stop..." premise applies. Asking about passengers on planes that haven't been shown to have crashed in Shanksville is the exact same thing.

And, people here know that, but cannot bring themselves to admit it.

Here in this thread, people do not realize they are asking the exact same kind of question when they jump to the issue of passengers without ever having proven a jetliner crashed. Because they cannot realize they are doing that, the discussion of the FBI botching the investigation and thereby putting us in the position where we cannot know what happened simply doesn't bother those who are participating in this thread.

That you are not bothered by presumption does not excuse or condone the use of it.

The emotion of 9/11 clouds and in many instances defeats the capacity for application of the ordinary rules of reason.
 
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51464b889348c0a10.jpg

Bet he lied about making his last post! He lies about 911, and spread moronic delusions.

Thinks a jet engine is wheel cover. The dumbest identification you could make, a first grader can identify a jet engine, but the best delusion spreader in 911 truth can't.
 
The emotion of 9/11 clouds and in many instances defeats the capacity for application of the ordinary rules of reason.

Yes, that's why the families of the victims mistakenly think they have lost someone close to them. It's the emotion.

Also, the coroner at Shanksville just THOUGHT he was recovering body parts. Of course, he is incapable of doing his job when he is emotional.

You should stop trying to convince us of everything. We hard-headed skeptics will just keep insisting that you have some rational basis for what you are claiming. Maybe you'll have more luck out in the real world.

Tell the first responders that they are mistaken about what they saw that day. Tell the coroner he doesn't know how to do his job. Tell the grieving families that they should stop being so emotional about the whole thing because, after all, the timing of the crash might be off by as much as seven minutes, and that means it didn't happen.

Go on now, take your message to the world. See what kind of response you get.
 
Bet he lied about making his last post! He lies about 911, and spread moronic delusions.

Thinks a jet engine is wheel cover. The dumbest identification you could make, a first grader can identify a jet engine, but the best delusion spreader in 911 truth can't.

Perfect example, yet again, of presumption pure and simple. The weakness and sheer stupidity of the 9/11 myth is that it cannot be put forth without a presumption in virtually every statement made.

The one by beachnut is an example.

In the oft-relied on Moussaoui exhibits, there are 3 photos that are referred to over and over again, of which this is one:

P200060.jpg


Quick, posters, what is that?

Quicker still, posters, what did the prosecutors in the Moussaoui say about that photo?

Quickest of all, posters, did the prosecutors in the Moussaoui call that picture a JET ENGINE?

I'll help you out here: No, they did not.

Can any of you make a single statement about FL 93 that is not riddled with presumption?

Try again, beachnut. Why don't you tell the truth. About that photo you may say:

"I, beachnut, look at that picture and I, beachnut, see a jet engine."

As I've already explained, reason does not apply to 9/11; so, there are undoubtedly a lot of people who will look at that picture and see a jet engine. I, on the other hand see a wheel cover. I also see what looks like a portion of either a wheel rim or a tire stripping, perhaps the reverse side of a white-wall stripping; but hey, that is just me. Others will look at that tire stripping and swear that what I am calling a part of a wheel or a strip of tire remnant looks to them like a titanium blade from a jet engine. What can I say?

You can look at the picture and call it what YOU like; but you CANNOT say that anyone in authority who had a duty to analyze the picture has called what is seen a jet engine, let alone a jet engine from a Boeing 757.
 
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Perfect example, yet again, of presumption pure and simple. The weakness and sheer stupidity of the 9/11 myth is that it cannot be put forth without a presumption in virtually every statement made.

The one by beachnut is an example.

In the oft-relied on Moussaoui exhibits, there are 3 photos that are referred to over and over again, of which this is one:

[qimg]http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/jfibonacci/P200060.jpg?t=1267276989[/qimg]

Quick, posters, what is that?

Quicker still, posters, what did the prosecutors in the Moussaoui say about that photo?

Quickest of all, posters, did the prosecutors in the Moussaoui call that picture a JET ENGINE?

I'll help you out here: No, they did not.

Can any of you make a single statement about FL 93 that is not riddled with presumption?

Try again, beachnut. Why don't you tell the truth. About that photo you may say "I, beachnut, look at that picture and I, beachnut, see a jet engine."

As I've already explained, reason does not apply to 9/11; so, there are undoubtedly a lot of people who will look at that picture and see a jet engine. I, on the other hand see a wheel cover. I also see what looks like a portion of a tire stripping, perhaps the reverse side of a white-wall stripping; but hey, that is just me. Others will look at that tire stripping and swear that it is a titanium blade from a jet engine. What can I say?

So what are you doing here? Take your message to the world!

Fly, fly, fly!
 
Hey posters,

You have refused to engage in an assessment of what the FBI did. That is your choice. I will here leave you with something about the FBI.

Reference is often made to the Moussaoui prosecution exhibits. Have any of you taken a look at the defense exhibits? The very first one contains 8x10 portraits of the alleged hijackers. A lot of them are Moussaoui's grade school report cards. One of them is a 75 pg FBI-CIA powerpoint presentation that contains about a dozen words on each page written in only the most general, non-descript language you will ever want to see. It proves nothing and it shows the FBI revealed nothing whatever to confirm the accuracy of the 9/11 myth.

And, talk about "authentication" and "verification" the last page of that 75 page powerpoint used by the defense says as follows:

moussaoui950pg75.jpg


In other words, the authentication confirms that nothing in the presentation had to be true, it was not presented as being true and no one is even saying what it contains is true.

That is rich.

take care, posters
 
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Supporting lies about a shoot down is kind of crazy, but true stupidity and insane claims top that by calling a jet engine a wheel cover. Like saying a gravity collapse was caused by a beam weapon. An insane claim. Only idiots look at a jet engine and say wheel cover; no one is that dumb or insane and the shoot down delusion look more sane in that light.

On topic one of the biggest, besides the DNA, evidence pieces ignored by idiots, is the FDR showing no problems besides murderers flying the jet into the ground.

Data from the final second showing the high speed and steep angle of impact.

93fdranim.jpg


Remember some of the idiots in the 911 truth movement may call this aircraft a horse-trailer, flying upside down at 437 KIAS; ignore them, they ignore evidence, why not ignore their insane claims, and moronic delusions!
 
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[qimg]http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/jfibonacci/P200060.jpg?t=1267276989[/qimg]

Quick, posters, what is that?

Quicker still, posters, what did the prosecutors in the Moussaoui say about that photo?

Quickest of all, posters, did the prosecutors in the Moussaoui call that picture a JET ENGINE?

I'll help you out here: No, they did not.

Can any of you make a single statement about FL 93 that is not riddled with presumption?

Try again, beachnut. Why don't you tell the truth. About that photo you may say:

"I, beachnut, look at that picture and I, beachnut, see a jet engine."

As I've already explained, reason does not apply to 9/11; so, there are undoubtedly a lot of people who will look at that picture and see a jet engine. I, on the other hand see a wheel cover. I also see what looks like a portion of either a wheel rim or a tire stripping, perhaps the reverse side of a white-wall stripping; but hey, that is just me. Others will look at that tire stripping and swear that what I am calling a part of a wheel or a strip of tire remnant looks to them like a titanium blade from a jet engine. What can I say?

You can look at the picture and call it what YOU like; but you CANNOT say that anyone in authority who had a duty to analyze the picture has called what is seen a jet engine, let alone a jet engine from a Boeing 757.

You can also look at those photos and call them anything you want but the fact remains that anyone with any knowlege of aircraft can see that there are the remains of a large passenger aircraft in the photos.

The fact that you have no knowlege of aircraft (and cars apparently) is immaterial .I'm not sure how you can live your life if you need an authority to identify everything you see for you.
 
ahm

You cannot presume what has not been proven. Rational adults starting with those having average intelligence know that you cannot do that and they would not allow baited or loaded or presumptuous questions to be asked of them in most contexts. <blather snipped>

"I can't guarantee identifying remains of all the passengers," Miller said, "but I'm hopeful."
-Wally Miller, September 22, 2001

"The identifications we have made for now have been mostly through dental records and fingerprints. We're also using radiology (records), and we can find surgical work such as hip replacements,"
-Wally Miller, September 22, 2001

"I'm not naive enough to believe we'll get everything, but we'll try to get everything we possibly can," Miller said. " ...When you have a plane traveling at 500 mph, I think you understand what the scenario is."
-Wally Miller, September 22, 2001

http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010922coronernat3p3.asp

It's a straight forward question. How did they get from Newark to Shanksville in 120 minutes?
 
-Wally Miller, September 22, 2001

-Wally Miller, September 22, 2001

-Wally Miller, September 22, 2001

http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010922coronernat3p3.asp

It's a straight forward question. How did they get from Newark to Shanksville in 120 minutes?


The above is the single densest post I have seen. What part of "you can't presume passengers in Shanksville without proving a jetliner they were on crashed there?" do you have difficulty understanding?

Look, you are not going to get away with jumping to the issue of passengers without proving a jetliner crashed in the first place.

Do you get it yet?
 
You can also look at those photos and call them anything you want but the fact remains that anyone with any knowlege of aircraft can see that there are the remains of a large passenger aircraft in the photos.

The fact that you have no knowlege of aircraft (and cars apparently) is immaterial .I'm not sure how you can live your life if you need an authority to identify everything you see for you.

What does a Boeing 757 jet engine look like?

What are its specifications?

What particular part of a Boeing 757 jet engine is claimed to be seen in the picture posted below?

Do you have either an FBI source or United Airlines source that says the picture is one of a jet engine?

thanks

P200060.jpg
 
The above is the single densest post I have seen. What part of "you can't presume passengers in Shanksville without proving a jetliner they were on crashed there?" do you have difficulty understanding?

Look, you are not going to get away with jumping to the issue of passengers without proving a jetliner crashed in the first place.

Do you get it yet?

Is Wally Miller lying? (hope that's not too dense for you.)
 
Right now I'm in a software conference in the same complex where Joe Stack crashed his airplane into a building last week. As I look out the window, I can see the burned-out Echelon III building. Parked next to it is a mobile crime lab. There are cops all over the place, guarding the site and preventing corruption of the evidence. The frontage road in front of the building is closed, and the parking lot for at least a hundred feet around the building is roped off.

These guys are serious about what they do. Even though it is pretty clear what happened, and there is no living perpetrator to prosecute, the police are carefully and methodically gathering and evaluating evidence so they can complete a clean, clear-cut, and unbiased investigation.

This is the LOCAL police. Still investigating a week and a half after the incident.

On what basis does Jammonius assume that the FBI, a law-enforcement organization renowned around the world as being one of the most thorough and professional, did a sloppy and careless job on 9/11?

Ridiculous.
 
Look, you are not going to get away with jumping to the issue of passengers without proving a jetliner crashed in the first place.

Do you get it yet?

How about you? Do you get it?

You have been asked to explain how the remains got to Shankville from Pennsylvania if a plane DID NOT crash there.

You can, of course, refuse to answer. I simply ask that you stop weaseling around and just admit straight up that you can't explain it.

Oh, and you should know that using the language of skepticism is not sufficient to make you a skeptic.
 
In an earlier post in this thread, I have already shown the following:
You've done no such thing since you have shown that you have no idea what your talking about.
1--No analysis of the debris field, and therefore no way to determine cause of crash of whatever crashed at Shanksville.
100% false. The FDR was all that was needed. Since no anomalies were found, analysis is not needed.
2--The time of crash cannot be determined because NTSB was not allowed to do necessary investigation to make a determination of time of crash.
100% false. The NTSB did analyze the FDR for the FBI. The FDR would be the primary source of the time of the crash.
3--Existing data show an up to seven minute discrepancy in time of crash, as follows:
Irrelevant. The FDR would be the primary source for the time of the crash. Besides, the exact time of the crash is irrelevant to the investigation. Only delusional people like yourself use it as a straw to hold onto in order to keep your fantasy alive.
Wally Miller who say they saw no plane debris or remains.
This has already been shown to be a lie. Why do you continue to tell it?
Let me here remind you that my last post on this topic, like most others, is sourced with available information. In this instance, certified source data is relied on.

all the best
Another lie. Of course you're going to be back.
 
Do you get it yet?

Reality Yes. Your dillusion - Yes! We cant help you.

We cant help you. Repeating made up stuff doesnt change the fact that 19 terrorists, under the command of UBL and KSM, did it. They are smarter than you and thought things through and succeeded. They admit it.

Unfortunately it is people like us that you need to convince otherwise and guess what - we dont believe you. We believe the FBI and the coroner. UBL and KSM agree with the FBI and the coroner too.

We are simply left with you entertaining us. You wont change anything. And that is clearly pissing you off. We dont care how it pisses you off.
 
Right now I'm in a software conference in the same complex where Joe Stack crashed his airplane into a building last week. As I look out the window, I can see the burned-out Echelon III building. Parked next to it is a mobile crime lab. There are cops all over the place, guarding the site and preventing corruption of the evidence. The frontage road in front of the building is closed, and the parking lot for at least a hundred feet around the building is roped off.

These guys are serious about what they do. Even though it is pretty clear what happened, and there is no living perpetrator to prosecute, the police are carefully and methodically gathering and evaluating evidence so they can complete a clean, clear-cut, and unbiased investigation.

This is the LOCAL police. Still investigating a week and a half after the incident.

On what basis does Jammonius assume that the FBI, a law-enforcement organization renowned around the world as being one of the most thorough and professional, did a sloppy and careless job on 9/11?

Ridiculous.

agglerithm,

Your post heads in the right direction. The FBI overruled the local authorities at Shanksville who were proceeding in a manner that sounds a lot like that which you describe taking place where you are. Well done.

This thread contains factual information concerning the FBI overruling the local authroities in, for instance,not griding the crash site so as to be able to carefully document where each piece of debris was. The FBI determined that no such handling would be done at Shanksville. And, as you know, that which was said to be plane debris was returned to United. It is that combination of factors which had been put into the record of this thread by no later than about pg. 13 that led to the call for accountability for the FBI's botching of the Shanksville investigation.

I have also said the FBI is not incompetent. The FBI knows how to investigate. Proper investigation was not done at Shanksville. That is the issue that cries out for review in this thread. But, so far nothing. Your words are directly apropos here and worth repeating:

"These guys are serious about what they do. Even though it is pretty clear what happened, and there is no living perpetrator to prosecute, the police are carefully and methodically gathering and evaluating evidence so they can complete a clean, clear-cut, and unbiased investigation."

Nothing of the sort was done at Shanksville. Your statement is in very sharp and very direct contrast to what lapman has said merely three posts prior. lapman claims:

"100% false. The FDR was all that was needed. Since no anomalies were found, analysis is not needed."

I think what you've seen and reported on agglerithm shows that thorough investigation is always needed in a proper investigation.

Thanks for your post.
 
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