Haiti to become under temporary American control?

[Darth Rotor]

Where have I said that the US shouldn't send any troops?

Read the thread title, whose words you chose.

Dishonesty again, JJane.

Bad form.

to take control of Haiti:

Your incredibly bad form continues. Exposed for the liar that you are.
Hoist on your own petard.

There are mixed feelings about allowing the US to take control of Haiti:

Quoted to preserve your sheer dishonesty for posterity.

DR

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

No offense, I do not think Jane wants deliveries to stop or help to stop- she has not said that, nor has the article she pointed to. And, if you are in these threads a lot, you know I disagree with her on American and American activities a lot. However, if we want Haiti to truly overcome this, help that is not based on controlling the country, standing behind murdering dictators, etc. (all of which the US has done in the past) needs to be provided - like it is right now. Just needs to continue when it is not an emergency.

Jane is a 9/11 truther. That means she has a habit of coming to the wrong conclusion about major world events, one that usually cuts against the United States, for reasons other than logic facts and evidence. She believes that the US government and military has powers and abilities to make the most cartoonishly unreal James Bond villain seem reasonable.

When people talk about US military might, the most common mental images that come forth are laser-guided bombs and hundred million dollar stealth fighter but that's really only half the picture. Relatively few people appreciate the other major source of Americas might; her mammoth and unparalleled logistical capability. In the buildup to Desert Storm in 1990 - 1991 the US military was able to move the population of Seattle to the opposite side of the globe and keep them fed and watered and supplied with war material to allow them to fight the 4th largest army in the world when the deadline came.

No one else can match Americas ability to move huge piles of stuff very quickly. And when a disaster like Haiti or the '04 tsunami strikes, the US military are the best people for the job of delivering aid.

In Haiti right now, time is critical. Every liter of clean water, every loaf of bread and every dose of antibiotic could save a life.

I don't know what kind of controls JihadJane wants to put in place to make sure this is not some secret attempt to do... something. But I can't imagine anything she would want to try not having the effect of slowing down the flow of critically needed aid.

Maybe Jane should travel to Haiti and ask for volunteers among the sick ad starving to be the first to die while she has the wings of C-5s checked to ensure than thermite armed ninjas aren't clinging to them or otherwise chase phantoms that she and her friends have never been able to prove even exist.

 

[quarky]

It's a pity that Americans have no memory.
Haitians do.

Darth Rotor, I suggest you do a short study of history before owning your smugness.


We've got some 'ass-plaining' to do...but we won't ever do it.

Its far too easy to go with the jingoism, whichever side you choose to align with.

Yet, if you have any interest in understanding the Haitian situation, which would be handy, you would read up on the matter.

Not your best post, mate.

Come back after you've at least googled a bit.
And don't talk down to me, please.


Its good to try to get a handle on the reason why people have the various prejudices they have.
In the case of Haiti, we've already played out the military-might angle, and it's about to come back and bite us in the ass.


In fact, this is going to be an on-going problem with the U.S. "intervention" mentality, coupled with a serious case of myopia.

Just because we can't handle the real history doesn't mean it never happened.


(let's fight, eh?)

 

[JihadJane]

Read the thread title, whose words you chose.

 

[Skeptic]

"Understanding the situation in country X" usually comes down to "blame the USA for it". Never do the "understanders" ever seem to "understand" that Haiti's bad situation (before the earthquake) might have something to do with, say, the Haitians themselves.

The inability to create a functioning government, the ruling class' corruption, lack of the rule of law, and a long string of dictatorships is ignored.

The fact that the short period of USA military rule in Haiti was one when the nation had massively advanced in terms of agriculture, modern infrastructure, education, etc., etc., etc., is also ignored. Also ignored is the fact that the USA had been a reluctant occupier, and replaced occupation with a "good neighbor" policy (by FDR) withing a few years.

These things don't fit with the "evil repressive colonialist racist USA" story, you see, which is the only correct conclusion to be drawn by someone who really understands the history of Haiti.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Sorry, two different threads, one you started, one somebody else did. Parky chose the words. My bad, and my apology for that incorrect criticism.


And on topic, from a New York Times article on Haiti
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34949077/?ns=world_news-the_new_york_times

“We can’t do it without them,” said Ms. Pierre-Louis, the former prime minister. “This country has been mismanaged for the last 50 years, and if we can’t run the country well in normal times how can we do it now?”

Also in that article, Col Kane: "This is a humanitarian mission."

In two months time, I suspect President Preval and his team will be better able to discharge these duties, and all of the Chicken Littles who swooned and complained over foreign arrival/intervention in Haiti to assist in a disaster will feel as they now look to me: like fools.

DR

 

[Travis]

It's a pity that Americans have no memory.
Haitians do.

There's remembering and then there's obsessing. Many nations have done bad things to the USA too. That doesn't give you free license to harp on it generations later when it no longer matters.

Yet, if you have any interest in understanding the Haitian situation, which would be handy, you would read up on the matter.

How is an occupation nearly a century ago in any way relevant to earthquake relief in 2010?

Just because we can't handle the real history doesn't mean it never happened.

Do you think Native Americans should still post lookouts for Army Cavalry charges? I mean that was "real history" wasn't it?

 

[Darth Rotor]

It's a pity that Americans have no memory.

Foolish statement.

Haitians do.

Seems about all they have, at the moment. That and a buck may get you a cup of coffee, or enough rice/beans to feed a family for a few days.

Darth Rotor, I suggest you do a short study of history before owning your smugness.

I am reasonably well versed in the history of Haiti, and US relations with that nation since its birth, thanks.

We've got some 'ass-plaining' to do...but we won't ever do it.

Oh? Who is the "we" quarky, Woodrow Wilson? FDR?

And don't talk down to me, please.

After you just tried to do the same to me? Sorry, that dog won't hunt, amigo. I was familiar with Haiti's history, political and otherwise, before the term Google referred to a search engine. Thanks for playing.

In the case of Haiti, we've already played out the military-might angle, and it's about to come back and bite us in the ass.

Oh? It was wrong to restore President Aristide to his rightfully elected seat in 1994? Is that your "military might" criticism, quarky? Try reading up on the recent history, if you please. If you refer to the decade plus the Marines spend there from Wilson to FDR's time, I wonder how that "bites us in the ass" since the Marines left in the thirties. See the remarks of the recent Haitian Prime Minister, about five decades of abysmal government. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34949077/?ns=world_news-the_new_york_times.

“We can’t do it without them,” said Ms. Pierre-Louis, the former prime minister. “This country has been mismanaged for the last 50 years, and if we can’t run the country well in normal times how can we do it now?”
...snip...
The United Nations Security Council on Tuesday unanimously approved sending 3,500 more police officers and peacekeeping troops to Haiti to maintain public order and to guard deliveries as the aid effort gathers steam. ... The forces will augment the roughly 9,000 United Nations troops already here.

It ain't just the US showing up, as in Wilson's day. Welcome to the year 2010. Try to keep up.

In fact, this is going to be an on-going problem with the U.S. "intervention" mentality, coupled with a serious case of myopia.

Right. Let's just stop with humanitarian missions. Screw 'em all, since they are afraid of us, quarky, and let them die when they run into bad luck. Nice, quarky. But you don't really feel that way, do you? I cannot imagine you, of all people, jumping on the isolationist band wagon.

Just because we can't handle the real history doesn't mean it never happened.

Who is this we, Kemo Sabe? The only historical myopia I see is in your focus on the negative. Just because you have a blinkered view of history means, maybe, that you are talking out of your arse here. The history happened. The trick is to try and forge a better future. Wallowing in a guilt trip is a waste of energy.

DR

 

[JihadJane]

Jane is a 9/11 truther. That means she has a habit of coming to the wrong conclusion about major world events, one that usually cuts against the United States, for reasons other than logic facts and evidence. She believes that the US government and military has powers and abilities to make the most cartoonishly unreal James Bond villain seem reasonable.

When people talk about US military might, the most common mental images that come forth are laser-guided bombs and hundred million dollar stealth fighter but that's really only half the picture. Relatively few people appreciate the other major source of Americas might; her mammoth and unparalleled logistical capability. In the buildup to Desert Storm in 1990 - 1991 the US military was able to move the population of Seattle to the opposite side of the globe and keep them fed and watered and supplied with war material to allow them to fight the 4th largest army in the world when the deadline came.

No one else can match Americas ability to move huge piles of stuff very quickly. And when a disaster like Haiti or the '04 tsunami strikes, the US military are the best people for the job of delivering aid.

In Haiti right now, time is critical. Every liter of clean water, every loaf of bread and every dose of antibiotic could save a life.

I don't know what kind of controls JihadJane wants to put in place to make sure this is not some secret attempt to do... something. But I can't imagine anything she would want to try not having the effect of slowing down the flow of critically needed aid.

Maybe Jane should travel to Haiti and ask for volunteers among the sick ad starving to be the first to die while she has the wings of C-5s checked to ensure than thermite armed ninjas aren't clinging to them or otherwise chase phantoms that she and her friends have never been able to prove even exist.

I wonder if your other responses to the OP and concerns about US military domination are colored by similarly reassuring but misinformed stereotyping.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There's remembering and then there's obsessing. Many nations have done bad things to the USA too. That doesn't give you free license to harp on it generations later when it no longer matters.

The exploitation of Haiti by outside powers didn't end generations ago, nor have the effects of past colonial exploitation.

How is an occupation nearly a century ago in any way relevant to earthquake relief in 2010?

The effect of and Haiti’s ability to respond to earthquakes are directly related to over two centuries of economic looting and political interference. Its recent and not-so-recent history give ample grounds for being wary of a US military presence, not to mention the involvement of Clinton and Bush!

Do you think Native Americans should still post lookouts for Army Cavalry charges? I mean that was "real history" wasn't it?

No, but like Haitians, they are owed massive reparations.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I was familiar with Haiti's history, political and otherwise, before the term Google referred to a search engine. Thanks for playing.
Oh? It was wrong to restore President Aristide to his rightfully elected seat in 1994? Is that your "military might" criticism, quarky? [/url].

Did you not read the article that Praktik linked to pointing the deficiencies in your shorthand history?

 

[Darth Rotor]

The effect of and Haiti’s ability to respond to earthquakes are directly related to over two centuries of economic looting and political interference.

What a bizarre statement. You might wish to review the role of European powers in the nineteenth century in Central and South America before you run off with your "I hate America" silliness.

Did you not read the article

JJane, once again, you are dodging the point. Should the US NOT have interfered when Aristide was tossed out on his bum? Without US interference, the fledgling democratic growth in Haiti gets another set back when Cedras and his henchmen toss Aristide aside. Aristide may have been charismatic, and popular, but that doesn't mean he was going to be a good president. A lot of folks thought Bazin would be more capable, but the voters didn't seem to much care for him. The people spoke, not once but twice, in choosing JB Aristide.

Why do you hate democracy?

As to your stupid statement about "shorthand," I have addressed that insult from Praktik. Your choosing to rely on that incorrect sound byte is another data point for your dishonesty.

As I told Praktik, I believe that the intervention was as much induced by an attempt to manage a PR disaster, the Haitian boat people running sore on CNN, as it was to apply OOTW in support of a UN election.

Little do you know that I have a non attributable source on just how interesting the negotiations were between Al Gore, then VP, and a certain Haitian, and what it would take to stop the boat people and their migration at the source. (Haiti) I'll honor that non attribution requirement, it's a name you might find familiar. But that changes nothing, at this point, given that US National Security Strategy at the time was to further promote and support the UN, and in particular humanitarian assistance and promotion of democracy in coalitions, and other multinational / multilateral modes. You are invited to review the National Security Strategy documents for 1991, 1992, 1993, and 1994, as I had to for my job, and discover for yourself what policy aims were supported in sending Cedras off (however clumsily) and letting vox populi count for something.

One thing that hadn't seemed to change then from when the Marines were chasing the Cacos in the twenties was that formal government had to deal with an entire informal power structure. True in 1994. Seems to remain true in 2010, if one is to believe the reports of the police in Haiti in re the looting and gang dangers posed after sunset, at the moment. What will probably happen is a few more vignettes like what happened in Cap Haiten in 1994. The usual thuggery by local banditos, an old story in Haiti.

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/09/25/world/8-haitians-killed-by-marine-patrol.html?pagewanted=1

The general reception the Marines had received from the general population had been positive.
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-911513.html

Any idea why that might have been?

ETA: JJane, I'll apologize to you for the previously nasty airhead remark. Not quite aligned in my attempts to do a better job at the friendly and lively. Mea culpa. I got a note from a Mod, and quite frankly, I have to agree with the admonition.

DR

 

[Soapy Sam]

It seems to me that now is not the time for recriminations over the history of Haiti.
Now is the time for water, food, medical assistance and most of all- social order.

If anyone knows of any nation other than the USA in a position to supply such- and with the slightest urge to do so, let him explain who that would be - and where are they?

Haiti today is an acute catastrophe piled on top of a chronic disaster. They need help. Now. The debate can wait.

 

[Cynic]

If anyone knows of any nation other than the USA in a position to supply such- and with the slightest urge to do so, let him explain who that would be - and where are they?

Haiti today is an acute catastrophe piled on top of a chronic disaster. They need help. Now. The debate can wait.

If you can figure out how to turn these forum posts into food, water, and shelter, let us know. Until then, these pages are unrelated to that need.

To address you other point, I think the US deserves its reputation of being willing and able to help out when needed. At the same time though, I think comparisons to other countries are unfair in this regard. Smaller nations that take their inclusion into the United Nations more seriously than we do aren't necessarily uncaring for allowing their nations to act through the UN. That just the mechanism they've got.

 

[quarky]

When Haiti was a slave state of the French, they had a successful slave revolt. Unfortunately, the French forced the slaves to buy their freedom, which was quite expensive. The Haitians were forced to remove their hardwood forests, while the French made fancy furniture.

Ecological disaster followed. And leftist revolutions, with right wing dictators installed and propped-up. Oops. U.S. marines help out. By the time Aristide came around, there was nothing left. On paper, we backed Aristide. In reality, not. A socialist revolution was still more scary to us than a right dictatorship. Now, we have nothing to fear from Haiti.

 

[Skeptic]

And if the US did not send any troops, Jihad Jane would blast us for that.

Yup. All together now:

"Because Haiti has no oil, naturally the evil imperialistic USA was not interested in helping a nation on its own doorstep..."

(Blah blah blah, yadda yadda yadda).

JJ will condemn as evil and awful anything the USA does. So why bother listening?

 

[Skeptic]

When Haiti was a slave state of the French, they had a successful slave revolt. Unfortunately, the French forced the slaves to buy their freedom, which was quite expensive. The Haitians were forced to remove their hardwood forests, while the French made fancy furniture.

Ah, I see. So the real reason for Haiti's misery is, as usual, the White Man's economic exploitation.

The Haitians, of course, were actually really "green" pro-ecology guys, the forefathers of today's Greenpeace and save-the-forests folks, who were enthusiastic for conservation of their natural resources; they were forced to cut down their forests.

No way they had simply not thought about it and over-exploited their resources -- just like, well, just about any other nation in history (until very recent times) tended to do, from the Mayas and Easter Islanders to the American bison hunters.

No no no, that had nothing to do with it. It was the evil French furniture makers that were to blame.

Do you really believe this cartoon pseudo-Marxist version of history?

 

[Darth Rotor]

When Haiti was a slave state of the French, they had a successful slave revolt. Unfortunately, the French forced the slaves to buy their freedom, which was quite expensive. The Haitians were forced to remove their hardwood forests, while the French made fancy furniture.

Interesting take on how Haiti exploited its natural resources once it threw the French out. Or are you saying that they really didn't have a revolution and throw off the European imperial yoke?

Ecological disaster followed. And leftist revolutions, with right wing dictators installed and propped-up. Oops. U.S. marines help out. By the time Aristide came around, there was nothing left.

Your timeline goes in fits and starts, but I agree with your general flow of events. Did you forget the Duvaliers after the Marines were long gone, since we had become "Good Neighbors" all of a sudden?

I agree, by the time Aristide showed up on the wave of popular support, it was a matter of buzzards picking over a boney carcass on the side of the road. Haiti as a failed state was already an established fact. Makes you wonder why he wanted the job.

On paper, we backed Aristide. In reality, not.

I half agree with you there. His winning the election didn't fit with the hopes that Bazin would win.

A socialist revolution was still more scary to us than a right dictatorship.

Not scary, annoying. The Wall had already come down.

Now, we have nothing to fear from Haiti.

Never did. An interesting, and dishonest choice of words, for the time frame when JB Aristide won his election.

Do you recall why he got couped? Are you aware of the political impact of negritude (that "how black is black" thing) on Haitian political and social friction? I was blind to it until I picked up a little tract on that written by a Hatian. Eye opener, that was.

And on a different topic, do you like necklacing as a political method?

DR

 

[Thunder]

Ah, I see. So the real reason for Haiti's misery is, as usual, the White Man's economic exploitation.

colonization and slavery left a huge legacy upon the economic and social fabric of Haiti. its not surprising that they have not fully recovered from it.

the only former colonies that do well are ones that were left with something to work with.

 

[ddt]

Not that I necessarily agree with all that quarky wrote, but to get a better grasp on Haitian history and politics:

Interesting take on how Haiti exploited its natural resources once it threw the French out. Or are you saying that they really didn't have a revolution and throw off the European imperial yoke?

I think quarky alludes to the fact the French came back in 1824 and forced the Haitians to pay indemnity, which only ended in 1947, and was something like 50% of the government budget. The Versailles reparations were pocket change in comparison.

Your timeline goes in fits and starts, but I agree with your general flow of events. Did you forget the Duvaliers after the Marines were long gone, since we had become "Good Neighbors" all of a sudden?

I guess he meant that the "leftist revolutions and right-wing dictators" continued after 1934. The Duvaliers fit the second category, don't they - or do you place them in a category of their own?

I agree, by the time Aristide showed up on the wave of popular support, it was a matter of buzzards picking over a boney carcass on the side of the road. Haiti as a failed state was already an established fact. Makes you wonder why he wanted the job.

My idea what a failed state is, is one where law and order and central government has collapsed - not one where the economy is totally in tatters. Though I agree they often go hand in hand.

I half agree with you there. His winning the election didn't fit with the hopes that Bazin would win.

That's the first coup in 1991. Aristide claims the US helped the coup. Also, the US - different administration, Clinton this time - brought him back in 1994. There was another coup in 2004. The US and France are both claimed to be complicit in that coup.

Not scary, annoying. The Wall had already come down.

Only just. Old habits don't die overnight. Maybe exaggerating, but whenever the word "land reform" came up in a democratically elected (left-wing) government, the US would back a military coup. I don't know to what extent Aristide could be called socalist or rather social-democrat.

Do you recall why he got couped?

Please expand.

Are you aware of the political impact of negritude (that "how black is black" thing) on Haitian political and social friction? I was blind to it until I picked up a little tract on that written by a Hatian. Eye opener, that was.

Could you expand on that too? Is it, in short, that mulattos feel one notch up with respect to blacks?

 

[Darth Rotor]

I think quarky alludes to the fact the French came back in 1824 and forced the Haitians to pay indemnity, which only ended in 1947, and was something like 50% of the government budget. The Versailles reparations were pocket change in comparison.

But JJane and quarky want to blame America. See the problem?

or do you place them in a category of their own?

I do indeed!

My idea what a failed state is, is one where law and order and central government has collapsed - not one where the economy is totally in tatters. Though I agree they often go hand in hand.

Your definition is IMO lacking. The hand in hand is part and parcel to the rest of it.

That's the first coup in 1991. Aristide claims the US helped the coup.

Which you accept without skeptical inquiry? It ain't that black and white. (Pun intended).

There was another coup in 2004. The US and France are both claimed to be complicit in that coup.

And you buy that? Telling. By 2004, Haiti is so far down the radar scope that you amaze me by thinking it mattered to W. Not bloody likely.

Only just. Old habits don't die overnight. Maybe exaggerating, but whenever the word "land reform" came up in a democratically elected (left-wing) government, the US would back a military coup. I don't know to what extent Aristide could be called socalist or rather social-democrat.

He was at one point a liberation theologist. Also an ex-Catholic priest, in part due to (as I read it) the Vatican changing its support for LT into objection to it.

JB Aristide is IMO a remarkable man, and a doer of deeds. His charisma and political savvy ought not to be under appreciated. That didn't make him any good as a president of a country.

President is a Hard Effing Job. For any country. His populist platform and appeal didn't translate well into serving his hard pressed nation very well at all.

As I noted above, given Haiti being a complete **** hole, I wonder why he wanted the job.

As to why he got couped, there were four charges (see recent kerfluffle in Honduras for a similar scenario) that he'd gone well past his constitutional authority. Given Haiti's history, that to me was a cheap excuse to coup him, but those were what the public statements on why he had to be kicked out amounted to.

Bloody funny, if you ask me, that Cedras and his arse clowns made these big complaints about Aristide's constitutional miscues, yet they were the ones to pull the coup. Freaking Comedy Central, that lot.

As to Negritude and mullato sorts, yes, sort of, but a lot more nuanced than that. Been fifteen years since I did the report. I would need to dig into the attic and see if I can find the paper. I think I kept it.

DR

 

[quarky]

Interesting take on how Haiti exploited its natural resources once it threw the French out. Or are you saying that they really didn't have a revolution and throw off the European imperial yoke?

Your timeline goes in fits and starts, but I agree with your general flow of events. Did you forget the Duvaliers after the Marines were long gone, since we had become "Good Neighbors" all of a sudden?

I agree, by the time Aristide showed up on the wave of popular support, it was a matter of buzzards picking over a boney carcass on the side of the road. Haiti as a failed state was already an established fact. Makes you wonder why he wanted the job.

I half agree with you there. His winning the election didn't fit with the hopes that Bazin would win.

Not scary, annoying. The Wall had already come down.

Never did. An interesting, and dishonest choice of words, for the time frame when JB Aristide won his election.

Do you recall why he got couped? Are you aware of the political impact of negritude (that "how black is black" thing) on Haitian political and social friction? I was blind to it until I picked up a little tract on that written by a Hatian. Eye opener, that was.

And on a different topic, do you like necklacing as a political method?

DR

This is a bit sad, even though I like Darth.

Haiti didn't exploit its natural resources...The French did. To not see the difference is nearly hateful. After the wood was gone, the cheap labor was all that was left to exploit. Haitians made baseballs for the U.S., amongst other sweat-shop items.

Interesting that they don't play the game.

On a less emotional level:

What is to be done?

Prevent emigration. That's #1

A dollar of aide in Haiti is worth $100 in the U.S.

These people need to die soon, or get massive help from the world.


I'm more curious and interested in how it ever gets this way in the first place.

In my hippy view, this is the most relevant part...not for apologies, but for better future strategies.

I long for an aesthetic and the technology to allow humans to be on equal footing, all over the world. Oddly, its never been a science problem.

Its always been a problem of some form of racism and exploitation, fueled by a willing aggression.

Haiti is merely an easy example.