Mentally ill Briton could be executed on Tuesday

[I Ratant]

There was more likelihood of getting him off due to his mental illness and that in theory is recognised in China, rather than trying to stop the death penalty there entirely; that's a fight for another day.

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China has and will pay NO attention to the opinions posted here, on anything.

 

[The Atheist]

I find the whole mental-illness argument to be curious.

I think you'll find it was stressed because China signed the convention on not executing mentally ill people.

They stick to it.




When it suits them.

 

[lionking]

Is there any country in the world where that particular mental illness would have rendered him to be declared legally insane?

I was going to make that point as well. If you called someone with bipolar disorder "insane" here, you run the risk of being brought before the Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission. Bipolar disorder is not necessarily insanity.

 

[Alt+F4]

On 19 August 2009, it was divulged that MacAskill had reached a decision on the bomber's fate to be announced the following day. The following day, MacAskill granted his release on compassionate grounds, stating that Megrahi was in the final stages of terminal prostate cancer and expected to die within three months."

... then you are wrong in factual respects. The '3 months' starts on 19 Aug 2009. Megrahi is doing about 50% better than the prediction. A close relative of mine outlived his very similar terminal prostate cancer prognosis by some months, so it doesn't surprise me that Megrahi is still alive. These things are not very accurate.

Wasn't the "tree month prognosis" supposed to based on a medical determination, not a political one? There is no way that al-Mergrahi was given the "three months to live" stamp on August 19th. There was paperwork, arranging getting him back to Lybia and I'm sure back room spin with the British and Americans.

I agree that it is very hard to make to a determination as to when a person with terminal cancer will die. Impossible maybe. So why did the Scottish government decide he only had three months to live?

 

[GlennB]

Wasn't the "tree month prognosis" supposed to based on a medical determination, not a political one? There is no way that al-Mergrahi was given the "three months to live" stamp on August 19th. There was paperwork, arranging getting him back to Lybia and I'm sure back room spin with the British and Americans.

I agree that it is very hard to make to a determination as to when a person with terminal cancer will die. Impossible maybe. So why did the Scottish government decide he only had three months to live?

At a guess I'd say he'd been given 4 months to live in July and the backroom stuff took a month to complete, thus the announcement in August.
Or some similar basic arithmetic.

 

[Carnivore]

Is there any country in the world where that particular mental illness would have rendered him to be declared legally insane? My understanding is that it does not render one incapable of distinguishing between right and wrong, and while it may (in its manic phase) cause somebody to disregard the potential consequences of one's actions, it does not render one incapable of understanding them.

Actually this not the case. Bipolar Disorder can incorporate delusional thinking and actual psychosis. Undesired Walrus posted a quote from a spokesman for MDF, the Bipolar Organisation that bears repeating:

"When manic - or high - people often completely lose touch with reality, sometimes experiencing delusions of grandeur and fantastical beliefs about their own abilities.

"This leads them to do extraordinary things they would never contemplate when well.

"For example, someone might quit their job thinking they were about to become a famous novelist or even believe they were the Prime Minister or a top businessman."

The Mayo Clinic's webpage for symptom's of Bipolar Disorder include for the Manic phase: extreme optimism, poor judgement, racing thoughts, inflated self esteem,inability to concentrate, increased drive to achieve goals, tendency to be easily distracted, risky behaviour and spending sprees. They go on to say:

Severe episodes of either mania or depression may result in psychosis, or a detachment from reality. Symptoms of psychosis may include hearing or seeing things that aren't there (hallucinations) and false but strongly held beliefs (delusions).

 

[Symbol]

Let's call it a spade.

Saying that having bipolar disorder gives one permission to smuggle heroin into another country does a complete disservice to people with the condition trying to live a normal and ethical life.

 

[FedUpWithFaith]

I have to say that executing a mentally ill person is problematic. But since he's British I think they should do it anyway. At least half that God-forsaken island is made up of loonies anyway. They all have an excuse. Hell, I lost complete respect for Britain when they stopped executing their own criminals. Somebody's gotta do it.

 

[Carnivore]

I must have missed the post where someone advocated letting people with Bipolar Disorder smuggle heroin.

Doubt was cast on whether Bipolar Disorder can ever be a severe enough form of mental illness to meet the legal standard of "insanity" in most countries. And it can.

Regardless, Akmal Shaikh's family were not claiming that he was smuggling drugs because he was crazy. They were claiming his illness made him easily manipulated into being an unwitting drugs mule. How much truth there is in this claim I have no idea.

 

[cwalner]

I must have missed the post where someone advocated letting people with Bipolar Disorder smuggle heroin.

Doubt was cast on whether Bipolar Disorder can ever be a severe enough form of mental illness to meet the legal standard of "insanity" in most countries. And it can.

Regardless, Akmal Shaikh's family were not claiming that he was smuggling drugs because he was crazy. They were claiming his illness made him easily manipulated into being an unwitting drugs mule. How much truth there is in this claim I have no idea.

All, well and good, but would that argument even work in a British court for either obviating responsibility or be considred a mitigating circumstance for sentencing? Is there any case law in the UK showing this? I keep asking what would be allowed in Britian as it seems that the family and the UK govt were asking to apply UK standards to the case because the accused was a UK citizen. It also further seems to me that the only real UK standard being applied was the objection to the death penalty.

My understanding (which may be completely off base) in the US is actually a bit of a catch 22 for using this a defense. If the defendant has no established history of the dissease or diagnosis (as in the China case) it will likely be rejected as evidence. If the defendant does have a diagnosis, but still had a manic episode (usually due to not taking the prescribed medicine), then the the prosecution could argue that the defendant knew the consequences of not taking the meds (this is similar as to why intoxication is not allowed as a diminished capacity defense)

 

[Carnivore]

The problem in the China case was that the defendant did not have a diagnosis but his family were trying to get one. It seems clear that Mr Shaikh's behaviour in the months before his arrest was consistent with the "up" phase of a Bipolar cycle but if he himself never sought treatment (and people in the "up" phase pretty generally do not think they need treatment) his family would have had few options for getting a diagnosis.

I think there are two issues here. First, whether or not Mr Shaikh deliberately smuggled heroin into China. If he did, I think it would be very hard for him to avoid responsibility for his action. On the other hand, if he was recruited as an unwitting drugs mule then his degree of mental illness becomes a factor in how much responsibility he bears.

I am not a lawyer and I really have no idea about the rules for reduced liability in the UK, but I would hope that someone deliberately taking advantage of a person's a mental illness to manipulate them into committing a crime would be considered a form of coercion.

Imagine for a moment a similar case in which there is no doubt that the defendant was an unwitting drugs mule. Would it/should it make a difference to the mule's level of responsibility if they were: severely intellectually handicapped/ drugged against their will/ had a mental illness with delusions that could be manipulated/ were subjected to the threat of violence?

Again, I do not know the facts in the case of Mr Shaikh - he may well have been as guilty as sin, and again, IANAL. I do think that if his family's claims were true, then morally if not legally it should have been considered a mitigating factor. I also think there was enough evidence of possible mental illness in Mr Shaikh that the Chinese authorities should have looked into it and allowed a formal diagnosis to be made. To simply declare him fully competent is not justice.

 

[The Atheist]

Let's call it a spade.

Saying that having bipolar disorder gives one permission to smuggle heroin into another country does a complete disservice to people with the condition trying to live a normal and ethical life.

So we aren't even allowed to acknowledge that someone with uncontrolled bi-polar disorder might actually be a raving lunatic?

If you take it as an inference on all bi-polar sufferers, I think you're just being too soft, frankly. Also, nobody mentioned permission - Gordon Brown wouldn't have become involved if the Chinks had just said they'd give him life and a pysch assessment.

I have to say that executing a mentally ill person is problematic. But since he's British I think they should do it anyway. At least half that God-forsaken island is made up of loonies anyway. They all have an excuse. Hell, I lost complete respect for Britain when they stopped executing their own criminals. Somebody's gotta do it.

Classic!

You should go check out the BNP on this subject.

On one hand, they have to stand up to the evil Chinks knocking off a Brit.

Who just happens to be a darkie....

I think there are two issues here. First, whether or not Mr Shaikh deliberately smuggled heroin into China. If he did, I think it would be very hard for him to avoid responsibility for his action. On the other hand, if he was recruited as an unwitting drugs mule then his degree of mental illness becomes a factor in how much responsibility he bears.

Plus, 3: whatever the truth actually is, I cannot see any possible way it could have been found in 30 minutes.

 

[Alt+F4]

You should go check out the BNP on this subject.

On one hand, they have to stand up to the evil Chinks knocking off a Brit.

Who just happens to be a darkie....

Wouldn't the BNP consider him not a Brit at all?

 

[Symbol]

So we aren't even allowed to acknowledge that someone with uncontrolled bi-polar disorder might actually be a raving lunatic?

On the contrary. Even someone without bipolar disorder may be a raving lunatic. (Though as far as I know "raving lunatic" is not a medical term.)

However acknowledging that someone has the right to mule heroin into another country on the basis of a manic/depressive condition is IMO not acceptable.

Does he deserve to die for doing it? Absolutely not, but discussing the death penalty is for another thread.

 

[Carnivore]

On the contrary. Even someone without bipolar disorder may be a raving lunatic. (Though as far as I know "raving lunatic" is not a medical term.)

However acknowledging that someone has the right to mule heroin into another country on the basis of a manic/depressive condition is IMO not acceptable.

Does he deserve to die for doing it? Absolutely not, but discussing the death penalty is for another thread.

Is anyone in this thread claiming that having Bipolar Disorder gives anyone the "right" to commit crime of any sort?

I for one am saying that severe mental illness may be a mitigating factor in some crimes and that in this particular case if Mr Shaikh was in fact not deliberately smuggling heroin and if chosen to be an unknowing drugs mule because he had a mental illness that made him easily manipulated then that certainly could be a mitigating factor. Given his history of erratic behaviour and apparent delusions, in the interest of justice that possibility should have been thoroughly investigated before he was killed.

Plus, 3: whatever the truth actually is, I cannot see any possible way it could have been found in 30 minutes.

Agreed.

Wouldn't the BNP consider him not a Brit at all?

Correct! From the BNP website:

The Chinese government has shown the world how to deal with drug pushers by ignoring liberal bleating and executing convicted drug-smuggler Akmal Shaikh — a punishment which should be mandatory everywhere for that crime.

Mr Shaikh, who the media quite falsely claim to be a “British” man, was born in Pakistan in 1956. He moved to Britain in the 1960s and when he married a Hindu Indian, he insisted she convert to Islam before the marriage could take place.

The media are "quite falsely" calling a UK citizen British.

 

[The Atheist]

On the contrary. Even someone without bipolar disorder may be a raving lunatic. (Though as far as I know "raving lunatic" is not a medical term.)

No? Barking mad, perhaps?

The point is, it's a mental illness, and uncontrolled, it can lead to unusual/bizarre behaviour.

However acknowledging that someone has the right to mule heroin into another country on the basis of a manic/depressive condition is IMO not acceptable.

Does he deserve to die for doing it? Absolutely not, but discussing the death penalty is for another thread.

Again, you're missing the point. Nobody's suggesting he be allowed to get away with it, but the Chinese are signatories to an agreement not to execute mentally ill people.

Whether the death penalty is appropriate is irrelevant. Singapore and other places have been executing westerners for years and we're used to it down here.

 

[luchog]

I must have missed the post where someone advocated letting people with Bipolar Disorder smuggle heroin.

"If you're not with us, you're against us!"

Doubt was cast on whether Bipolar Disorder can ever be a severe enough form of mental illness to meet the legal standard of "insanity" in most countries. And it can.

Regardless, Akmal Shaikh's family were not claiming that he was smuggling drugs because he was crazy. They were claiming his illness made him easily manipulated into being an unwitting drugs mule. How much truth there is in this claim I have no idea.

I am seriously saddened by the profound display of ignorance displayed in this thread; especially said ignorance being held as a point of pride by some. Especially those bigots equating it with being "retarded".

Bi-Polar Disorder covers a spectrum of mental dysfunction characterized primarily by alternating periods of profound depression and uncontrolled mania; with periods of relatively normal functionality between the peaks of dysfunction. The duration and severity of these phases varies significanty by type of BD (there are 5 distinct variants), as well as by individual, and episode. Furthermore, the severity of one phase does not necessarily correlate to an equivalent severity of the opposite pole - hypo-mania is often combined with profound depression, and non-severe depression is occasionally combined with acute mania. Duration of the cycle also varies widely, from a several days, to several years; with manic and depressive phases most commonly running from 3 to 6 months.

BD can also be progressive, with manic and depressive episodes increasing in both severity and duration; particularly from the late 30s onward. An individual with BD who has managed to cope reasonably well for many years can find their disorder becoming too severe to manage by their usual methods.

During manic phases, individuals become irrational, and as stated in an earlier post, can be prone to grandiose behaviour and delusions (including those of godhood or being "chosen"), euphoria, anxiety, aggression, and disorganized thought patterns. Judgement is typically seriously impaired, and individuals may engage in abnormal behaviour such as spending sprees or high-risk sexual activity. In very servere cases, they can experience full psychotic episodes, experience hallucinations, and become unable to differentiate between reality and fantasy. In a manic state, many individuals are highly prone to suggestion, and are easy to manipulate.

BP individuals have a very high tendency to self-medicate their condition, and it is often masked by long-term drug abuse. However, the most common drugs for self-medication are stimulants and alcohol. Self-medication can mask and ameliorate the symptoms for a considerable amount of time; but will eventually lose efficacy, and the combination of severe episodes combined with drug withdrawl can have devestating effects.

BD is also notoriously difficult to diagnose and treat, as individuals are highly avoidant, often refusing medical diagnosis or denying its validity, and have a high rate of non-compliance with treatment, particularly during manic or hypo-manic phases. It is also very common for BD individuals to attempt to hide their disorder from observers, preferring to experience the highs of the manic phases.

I've personally witnessed the long-term effects of BD on several friends and aquaintances.

All that aside, I believe that executing individuals for drug smuggling is barbaric; and executing the mentally ill is unconscionable.

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

No? Barking mad, perhaps?

The point is, it's a mental illness, and uncontrolled, it can lead to unusual/bizarre behaviour.



Again, you're missing the point. Nobody's suggesting he be allowed to get away with it, but the Chinese are signatories to an agreement not to execute mentally ill people.

Whether the death penalty is appropriate is irrelevant. Singapore and other places have been executing westerners for years and we're used to it down here.

And given that the guy has never been diagnosed with a mental illness they have met that requirement in this case.

The only time there was ANY suggestion this guy might be mentally ill was when it was brought up as a good way to get him out of a death penalty.

In order to get his visa to China I think (and my memory is getting hazy) he probably had to sign something to state he doesn't have any mental illness.

If he actually had been diagnosed before he went to China I might be sympathetic but in this case I am not.

 

[cwalner]

All that aside, I believe that executing individuals for drug smuggling is barbaric; and executing the mentally ill is unconscionable.

I agree with the first sentence, which is why I did not like the claim of mental illness in this case. The issue for me is that I do not agree that the transgression (drug smuggling) rises to the level of capitol punishment. Clearly the Chinese disagree, but it is not wrong for those countries that do agree to try to convince China of this as well, especially as the transgessor in this case is a citizen of such a country.

The second sentence, I would have to disagree with. I tend to agree with the general stance of the US legal defenition of insanity. If a person cannot distinguish between right and wrong and/or cannot comprehend the consequences of thier actions, these are factors that should be considered in determining guilt and even mitigating factors for sentencing. The suggestion that all mental illnesses meet this criteria is where I take issue.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

Correct! From the BNP website:



The media are "quite falsely" calling a UK citizen British.

I presume the Marxist media are thus guilty of calling Richard Dawkins -born in Kenya- British.

I'm floating the possibility that if Mr Shaikh was actually a white man from Bolton who claimed a Mr Afriyie from Hackney set him up with heroin they'd be more sympathetic.