My First Conspiracy Theory This "Terrorist Attack" is a set up

[LightinDarkness]

The problem with the CT theories about this is that if it was a set up than it went just terribly. The government is more than willing, according to the twoofers, to kill thousands of people to keep us scared but they can't even get a competent suicide bomber?

If the government is so evil and so out to keep us scared why would they have any moral quandary with making sure this plot succeeded and the plane went down? Why, instead, did they set up an elaborate plot that failed so bad?

Logic, the bane of CTs everywhere.

 

[The_Animus]

Well how am I supposed to get evidence sitting on my butt here in NYC of an event that just happened that totally is being covered up by the CIA?

How can I prove that someone is lying if top officials are in on it? Haven't you seen The Firm? If I start poking around they will likely kidnap my family or something. It's better to just get the word out on the internet until someone breaks..

Come now if you intend on speculating on conspiracies at least do it logically. Assuming there was a conspiracy and the CIA or some powerful group was involved what would they do? We already know that such conspiratorial events have at least been planned in the past if not executed. All evidence that could be destroyed would be. What evidence is left would be very difficult to track down let alone pin on anyone. People can snoop around all they want and it would be in the best interest of the conspiratorial group to completely ignore them unless someone were to find evidence that was damning enough to cause real problems.

While almost all conspiracies are likely a load of crap it seems to me it would be a rather amazing if none of them were true. People are corrupt, people conspire, it's bound to happen. As to which one(s) might be true out of all them? Who knows.

 

[truethat]

The problem with the CT theories about this is that if it was a set up than it went just terribly. The government is more than willing, according to the twoofers, to kill thousands of people to keep us scared but they can't even get a competent suicide bomber?

If the government is so evil and so out to keep us scared why would they have any moral quandary with making sure this plot succeeded and the plane went down? Why, instead, did they set up an elaborate plot that failed so bad?

Logic, the bane of CTs everywhere.

Because the guy wasn't willing to die for the cause.......you see they had to get a plant willing to go through with it, and see how they chose a black muslim, well obviously it would have just been a bad Hollywood movie if he was willing to die for the man's cause. So he said no way.

Also along the lines of Kaiser Sosay they had to have witnesses going on about how he eminated evil and cold blooder killer attitude so we would know what we're really up against.

 

[truethat]

Come now if you intend on speculating on conspiracies at least do it logically. Assuming there was a conspiracy and the CIA or some powerful group was involved what would they do? We already know that such conspiratorial events have at least been planned in the past if not executed. All evidence that could be destroyed would be. What evidence is left would be very difficult to track down let alone pin on anyone. People can snoop around all they want and it would be in the best interest of the conspiratorial group to completely ignore them unless someone were to find evidence that was damning enough to cause real problems.

While almost all conspiracies are likely a load of crap it seems to me it would be a rather amazing if none of them were true. People are corrupt, people conspire, it's bound to happen. As to which one(s) might be true out of all them? Who knows.

We knows............it's this one that is true.

 

[The_Animus]

The problem with the CT theories about this is that if it was a set up than it went just terribly. The government is more than willing, according to the twoofers, to kill thousands of people to keep us scared but they can't even get a competent suicide bomber?

If the government is so evil and so out to keep us scared why would they have any moral quandary with making sure this plot succeeded and the plane went down? Why, instead, did they set up an elaborate plot that failed so bad?

Logic, the bane of CTs everywhere.

With many other conspiracy theories there isn't mass death and destruction involved. If the lunar landing were faked, no one got hurt because of it. But with 9/11 tons of people lost their lives. I would say this caused one of the biggest conspiracy theories/movements we've seen. Even today there are tons of people who are very gung ho about pursuing this and many many more who, though they aren't personally invested, feel they don't know what really happened. If the governments purpose was to scare us into allowing some sort of action, would it be better to kill tons of people and thus create another huge conspiracy, or to flub it up and thus still scare people while not inciting the same level of conspiracy had they killed tons of people.

Besides this is a new president. Maybe this one prefers to handle scare tactics a little differently

 

[lector]

I figured the setup was more of the 'terrorist' didn't properly mix the chemicals on purpose. It's a scare, but not a terribly deadly one. After all, why wait till a mere 1hr before landing on a long international flight? If the goal is really to take a flight out (with few to no survivors), why not do it mid-Atlantic?

I think the terrorists want the news footage. An exploding & crashing plane over US soil is much more dramatic than a plane that just vanishes over the ocean. Space aliens might be blamed!

The TSA seems to agree, given that their main & utterly bizarre response is to immobilise passengers an hour before landing.

 

[truethat]

With many other conspiracy theories there isn't mass death and destruction involved. If the lunar landing were faked, no one got hurt because of it. But with 9/11 tons of people lost their lives. I would say this caused one of the biggest conspiracy theories/movements we've seen. Even today there are tons of people who are very gung ho about pursuing this and many many more who, though they aren't personally invested, feel they don't know what really happened. If the governments purpose was to scare us into allowing some sort of action, would it be better to kill tons of people and thus create another huge conspiracy, or to flub it up and thus still scare people while not inciting the same level of conspiracy had they killed tons of people.

Besides this is a new president. Maybe this one prefers to handle scare tactics a little differently

Not really because killing tons of people didn't rally a lot of support for Bush did it? In fact he was blamed for it? So since Obama is already slipping in popularity, the last thing he'd want to do is let a plane full of people get blown out of the sky on Christmas.

But it's much better to have an "almost!" where you have the same amount of media frenzy and lots of "thank God for small miracles, this was stopped but the threat is still there." It's the scare tactic.

 

[LightinDarkness]

Because the guy wasn't willing to die for the cause.......you see they had to get a plant willing to go through with it, and see how they chose a black muslim, well obviously it would have just been a bad Hollywood movie if he was willing to die for the man's cause. So he said no way.

Also along the lines of Kaiser Sosay they had to have witnesses going on about how he eminated evil and cold blooder killer attitude so we would know what we're really up against.

That doesn't work. If the government is secretly plotting false flags to keep us terrified of terrorists who don't really exist, and was more than willing to fake 9/11 and kill thousands, finding someone willing to suicide and kill a few hundred should be easy.

Instead, they secretly plotted a false flag to..catch someone before they could kill hundreds of people, demonstrating that current US security measures work. What a terrible set up. Now you've left the guy alive so he can rat on the government and reveal the secret evil plan. And you've concurrently shown that the systems were in place to stop the guy because his attempt failed. Why is it the maniacal evil geniuses in government are always so dumb when it comes to hatching all these false flags?

You can't have it both ways. Yet again - logic, the bane of CTs everywhere. You and animus are embracing the woo and abandoning logic.

 

[truethat]

no no silly the plant IS CIA. It's a fake terrorist. What's confusing?

 

[LightinDarkness]

no no silly the plant IS CIA. It's a fake terrorist. What's confusing?

You really don't get it, do you? Your woo doesn't work - it never will - because it lacks internal consistency. Of course, you also have absolutely no evidence...but we don't even need to look at the evidence until you can come up with a woo propaganda line that is at least internally consistent. In order for this to be within the realm of the possible, the theory needs to be internally consistent.

For this particular flavor of woo, it requires belief that:

(1) The government contains a evil and maniacal cabal hell bent on terrifying Americans for no obvious reason.

(2) This evil cabal has no qualms about doing whatever it needs (and it must have nearly unlimited resources to exist as a secret hidden cabal that no one has any proof for to begin with) in order to accomplish (1).

In this case, the cabal failed at (2) utterly and completely. The attack failed, the security measures worked, and nothing was accomplished. Your woo is not internally consistent, which is why you need to go back to the conspiracy drawing board and try again. There is no reason why the CIA would use some sort of "agent" as a fake terrorist when they could find a real one and cause real damage. What agent is going to agree to be put in jail for the rest of his life for attempted terrorism?

You can keep repeating the same flawed woo line over and over, but it won't make it true. I'm not even going to bother responding to you anymore until you can at least come up with a false flag woo belief that is AT LEAST internally consistent. Evidence wouldn't hurt, either.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

That doesn't work. If the government is secretly plotting false flags to keep us terrified of terrorists who don't really exist, and was more than willing to fake 9/11 and kill thousands, finding someone willing to suicide and kill a few hundred should be easy.

Instead, they secretly plotted a false flag to..catch someone before they could kill hundreds of people, demonstrating that current US security measures work. What a terrible set up. Now you've left the guy alive so he can rat on the government and reveal the secret evil plan. And you've concurrently shown that the systems were in place to stop the guy because his attempt failed. Why is it the maniacal evil geniuses in government are always so dumb when it comes to hatching all these false flags?

You can't have it both ways. Yet again - logic, the bane of CTs everywhere. You and animus are embracing the woo and abandoning logic.

And yet...TrueThat and I aren't exactly your average CT... In fact, we've both admitted that it's more than likely not a conspiracy.

However, rather than actually address any of the suggested conspiracy, you've (much like Skeptigirl) managed to simply wave your hand in dismissal.


What TT and I are stating is that the "flubbed" bomb created as much panic as a real bomb - without anyone (other than the "bomber" and the single passenger) suffering any real injuries. That's a win-win. You get public opinion for your wars/anti-terrorism measures and there's no negative reaction to people dying.

And, really, it doesn't even take that many people to be in on this thing. You have 1 agent, his supervisor, maybe 1-2 higher up in the White House - and just let everyone else play out their roles unknowingly.

Sure, go ahead, dismiss all this as ramblings from a conspiracy nut-job...but that doesn't dismiss that these are actually realistic musings. I'm not claiming things that defy physics, or human nature, or, well, anything really.


Who's the true skeptic? The guy that looks at the possibility of a conspiracy and dismisses it out of hand, or the guy who looks at it and is willing to analyze the information (limited though it may be) and admit the possibility exists?

 

[BobTheDonkey]

You really don't get it, do you? Your woo doesn't work - it never will - because it lacks internal consistency. Of course, you also have absolutely no evidence...but we don't even need to look at the evidence until you can come up with a woo propaganda line that is at least internally consistent. In order for this to be within the realm of the possible, the theory needs to be internally consistent.

For this particular flavor of woo, it requires belief that:

(1) The government contains a evil and maniacal cabal hell bent on terrifying Americans for no obvious reason.

(2) This evil cabal has no qualms about doing whatever it needs (and it must have nearly unlimited resources to exist as a secret hidden cabal that no one has any proof for to begin with) in order to accomplish (1).

In this case, the cabal failed at (2) utterly and completely. The attack failed, the security measures worked, and nothing was accomplished. Your woo is not internally consistent, which is why you need to go back to the conspiracy drawing board and try again. There is no reason why the CIA would use some sort of "agent" as a fake terrorist when they could find a real one and cause real damage. What agent is going to agree to be put in jail for the rest of his life for attempted terrorism?

You can keep repeating the same flawed woo line over and over, but it won't make it true. I'm not even going to bother responding to you anymore until you can at least come up with a false flag woo belief that is AT LEAST internally consistent. Evidence wouldn't hurt, either.

Ok, first of all, the security measures didn't work. There was an explosive device on an airplane! Explain to me how that is evidence of the security measures being effective.

and again, it doesn't require a huge number of people. It requires 2-4 people (tops). And there is an immediate gain - public opinion on the war on terror. Public opinion slips, is distracted, etc...suddenly we have a failed terrorist attack.

This is completely internally consistent. Explain again how it's not, only this time, use what TT and I have actually posited as the possibility - not just what you want to imply we've stated so that you can, again, dismiss it out of hand.

 

[LightinDarkness]

And yet...TrueThat and I aren't exactly your average CT... In fact, we've both admitted that it's more than likely not a conspiracy.

However, rather than actually address any of the suggested conspiracy, you've (much like Skeptigirl) managed to simply wave your hand in dismissal.

Yawn. Instead of admitting that the flavor of woo propaganda your promoting isn't internally consistent and has 0 evidence, you just wave your hand in dismissal. IT MUST BE REAL..EVIDENCE AND LOGIC BE DAMED!

What TT and I are stating is that the "flubbed" bomb created as much panic as a real bomb - without anyone (other than the "bomber" and the single passenger) suffering any real injuries. That's a win-win. You get public opinion for your wars/anti-terrorism measures and there's no negative reaction to people dying.

Except it didn't - do you have any evidence that there was some sort of mass panic after this? I was on an airplane the day after and no one was terrified or panicked. TSA has already lifted most of their restrictions.

Yet again, a lose-lose for the secret cabal plotting failed false flag attacks. Spend all that time and money plotting to terrify people with a terrible plane to fake a failed terrorist plot..only to have it go no where. The only reason why the media covered it as much as they did is because its the holidays and there just isn't that much news to cover.

And, really, it doesn't even take that many people to be in on this thing. You have 1 agent, his supervisor, maybe 1-2 higher up in the White House - and just let everyone else play out their roles unknowingly.

Wrong again. Like all conspiracies, this would be a fantastically large plot even for a failed attack. It would, at the least, have to involve hundreds of people and hundreds more to shut everyone up afterwards since everyone was left alive and all the evidence of this plot would be everywhere.

Sure, go ahead, dismiss all this as ramblings from a conspiracy nut-job...but that doesn't dismiss that these are actually realistic musings. I'm not claiming things that defy physics, or human nature, or, well, anything really.

Don't worry, I dismissed your ramblings already, I don't need your permission. I await for you woos to come up with a internally consistent false flag theory on this..or some evidence...something. You are promoting a flavor of woo that defies human nature and is internally inconsistent.

Who's the true skeptic? The guy that looks at the possibility of a conspiracy and dismisses it out of hand, or the guy who looks at it and is willing to analyze the information (limited though it may be) and admit the possibility exists?

Whose the true skeptic? The guy that finds elaborate plots with absolutely no evidence or logic or the one that thinks you should have some evidence first?

 

[LightinDarkness]

Ok, first of all, the security measures didn't work. There was an explosive device on an airplane! Explain to me how that is evidence of the security measures being effective.

Wrong again. The security measures worked - the bomb didn't go off - the guy was stopped by personnel and passengers on the plane. The bomb got closer to going off than we would have liked, but it was not a failure of the security system. The TSA uses layers of security, including the security on the plane itself. If this secret cabal plotting false flag attacks really wanted to cause panic, they would have had it go off and only injure a few people but not destroy the plane. But as usual, the secret cabal seems to be evil enough and powerful enough to make these plots but too stupid to get the details right...

and again, it doesn't require a huge number of people. It requires 2-4 people (tops). And there is an immediate gain - public opinion on the war on terror. Public opinion slips, is distracted, etc...suddenly we have a failed terrorist attack.

And again, it requires a HUGE number of people. You need people to first come up with the maniacal plan for no obvious reason, a team to train the false-flag operative, a team to smuggle the operative, a team to erase ALL the evidence, and a team that works 24/7 for years from now on keeping everyone else quiet.

There was no immediate gain - and there is no evidence that the public all of a sudden supports the war on terror more because of it.

This is completely internally consistent. Explain again how it's not, only this time, use what TT and I have actually posited as the possibility - not just what you want to imply we've stated so that you can, again, dismiss it out of hand.

I have already debunked you on why this is not internally consistent. That you are a denialist over logic is not my problem. You keep believing in those false flags

The secret cabal in the US government that is evil enough to create false flag plots to terrify us all and send us into hysterical panic over terrorism failed to do all of the following:

1) Actually create real panic by killing or maiming someone. The cabal is evil enough to want to terrify us all but has moral issues with actually harming people, I guess.
2) Use a fake background story that would make 0 sense if you wanted to stoke the war on terrorism. The guy was from Nigeria, not a good choice for stereotyping to the US public. Doesnt the evil cabal know American stereotype terrorists as only coming from the middle east?
3) Keep everyone involved in the false flag alive and healthy, so now for the rest of their lives they can at any time expose the entire operation.
4) Keep the scene of the crime in perfect condition by not destroying or damaging the plane, so any trace evidence of the plot could be found by anyone.
5) Stir hysteria and panic so bad that..the TSA drops all of its strict security measures only days after the attempted attack.

So yet again, the evil government cabal proves to be completely stupid. You'd think they would learn after all this time.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Funny, your simple rebuttal is to claim that I'm in denial or claim that far too many people must be involved.

But, that's not the case. Thanks for not even paying attention to what I had to say and summarily dismissing this out of hand though, that shows true skepticism.

 

[truethat]

You really don't get it, do you? Your woo doesn't work - it never will - because it lacks internal consistency. Of course, you also have absolutely no evidence...but we don't even need to look at the evidence until you can come up with a woo propaganda line that is at least internally consistent. In order for this to be within the realm of the possible, the theory needs to be internally consistent.

For this particular flavor of woo, it requires belief that:

(1) The government contains a evil and maniacal cabal hell bent on terrifying Americans for no obvious reason.

1. Obvious reason: The US is going broke and war is freaking expensive. So there's been a lot of criticism against the powers that be for not getting out of Iraq and Afghanistan. A little shake em up scare tactic solves that rather nicely. It's cheap, didn't cause any real damage. What's the problem? They don't need to terrify Americans just cause enough concern to make them willing lemmings once more.



(2) This evil cabal has no qualms about doing whatever it needs (and it must have nearly unlimited resources to exist as a secret hidden cabal that no one has any proof for to begin with) in order to accomplish (1).

Your secret cabal is really interesting because you must not know how to manage funds very well.

One uneducated kid from the middle east willing to be recruited by the CIA "free"
One plane ticket during the holiday season "$2000 tops"
Luggage (unless you are Sarah Palin) $50
Bomb materials $1000 tops

Scaring US travelers back into complacency PRICELESS.

In this case, the cabal failed at (2) utterly and completely. The attack failed, the security measures worked, and nothing was accomplished. Your woo is not internally consistent, which is why you need to go back to the conspiracy drawing board and try again. There is no reason why the CIA would use some sort of "agent" as a fake terrorist when they could find a real one and cause real damage. What agent is going to agree to be put in jail for the rest of his life for attempted terrorism?

What do you mean nothing was accomplished? If the goal was to instill fear about foreign terrorist attacks on US soil then failed attack is MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. I'm not sure why you are so confused by this. Have you been watching the news.

You can keep repeating the same flawed woo line over and over, but it won't make it true. I'm not even going to bother responding to you anymore until you can at least come up with a false flag woo belief that is AT LEAST internally consistent. Evidence wouldn't hurt, either.

The conspiracy is pretty obvious and internally consistent to me. Anyone else agree? Just because you can't understand it doesn't mean you get to play the "I'm not talking to you anymore!"

 

[Brainache]

Isn't the whole notion of false flag terror attacks based on the mistaken belief that Al Qaeda doesn't exist?

Al Qaeda exists. Al Qaeda is comprised of people who see it as their God given mission to attack the US and its allies. So why should it seem so unlikely that someone associated with Al Qaeda would attempt to attack the US?

The whole false flag CT angle only works if terrorism is not a real threat. Sorry CTers, terrorism is real. You can't just start accusing people in power of inventing the whole thing, because then you start going down the ever widening inside jobby job rabbit hole... Keep following this path of speculation and before you know it you'll be talking about holograms, thermite, space based energy weapons and the goddamn Pentagon flyover.

 

[LightinDarkness]

Funny, your simple rebuttal is to claim that I'm in denial or claim that far too many people must be involved.

But, that's not the case. Thanks for not even paying attention to what I had to say and summarily dismissing this out of hand though, that shows true skepticism.

You have failed. You have been debunked, and your response is "um...NO." Sorry, but time to work on your CT some more.

Skepticism = thinking that perhaps you should need some evidence or logic before claiming a evil cabal is out to terrorize US citizens to keep up a war which completely fails.

Skepticism /= coming up with CTs to support your ideological biases because you wish they were real.

Time for you to go back to the drawing board.

 

[LightinDarkness]

Isn't the whole notion of false flag terror attacks based on the mistaken belief that Al Qaeda doesn't exist?

Al Qaeda exists. Al Qaeda is comprised of people who see it as their God given mission to attack the US and its allies. So why should it seem so unlikely that someone associated with Al Qaeda would attempt to attack the US?

The whole false flag CT angle only works if terrorism is not a real threat. Sorry CTers, terrorism is real. You can't just start accusing people in power of inventing the whole thing, because then you start going down the ever widening inside jobby job rabbit hole... Keep following this path of speculation and before you know it you'll be talking about holograms, thermite, space based energy weapons and the goddamn Pentagon flyover.

Exactly...It requires a belief that not only is terrorism not real, but that the US government would decide to keep up the pretense of terrorism through terribly flawed and horribly executed plots that serve to do nothing but give the media to talk about for a few days.

I was either on a plane or at airports for at least 20 hours after this happened. No one was panicked or terrified, no one was acting hysterical. Everyone was very calm. It was just another day at the airport, except with some increased security..which was later removed anyways. I was also on a plane when 9/11 happened, and I can assure you it was a very different atmosphere.

The CT crew in this thread has told us that this false flag attempt had the goal of causing panic and hysteria to support the war on terrorism (without any evidence for this, but hey - they are CTs - they dont need no stinkin' evidence). If that was the goal, it failed utterly.

 

[truethat]

So basically your argument is that if you don't understand what is glaringly obvious to others and their explanations elude you when I've just explained the same thing to my nine year old and he gets it, then "We" are the ones with the intellectual deficit?

Sits down with some pistachio nuts and a pint to watch the show.