Naturopath Education vs Med School

[T.A.M.]

Well then, this makes you an expert on the subject.

are you 4 years old? The above response is near the equivalent of "I know you are but what am I".

TAM

 

[TheDaver]

Not to belittle the contribution nurse's aides make in the care of patients, but this hardly puts you in a position of expertise in which to make a decision about the credibility of either medicine or naturopathy.

I know many nurses who would disagree with that statement.

I’ve met a few street bums who considered themselves experts on quantum physics. Of course, that doesn’t mean they really are.…

 

[arthwollipot]

I dunno. I think I'm just still holding a grudge because my aunt-in-law died of cancer after delaying treatment on the advice of her son's naturopath common law wife advised her not to trust "big pharma" and do coffee enemas instead.

I'm sorry - I made a tasteless joke, and I apologise.

 

[arthwollipot]

I never asked anyone to prove a negative.

Prove I'm wrong then.

 

[Jeff Corey]

'I made a tasteless joke,' Art, I missed that, but in my experience, you are not gauche, or left handed. I got someone objecting to my "ignorant cow" comment on the dingbat antivac herd ammunity thing.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

I'm sorry - I made a tasteless joke, and I apologise.

Don't apologize. I love being sarcastic! Thank you for that

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally Posted by WitchyWoman:

I never asked anyone to prove a negative.

Originally Posted by WitchyWoman:

Prove I'm wrong then.

Originally posted by arthwollipot:

ROFLMAO!
You're awesome!

 

[WitchyWoman]

I could very well turn this around - WitchyWoman, do you not like conventional medicine? Then don't make use of them, that simple.

*laffs*.....and I don't. Yes, that simple. Seems to be a huge problem when it involves not accepting vaccines.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

*laffs*.....and I don't. Yes, that simple. Seems to be a huge problem when it involves not accepting vaccines.

No there isn't. Just stop repeating BS about them and not get them. No problem. I have no problem at all whatsoever with you never getting vaccinated for anything. It's too bad your parents probably got you some, which would be totally against your will. Evil parents.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Common claim taught to chiros and naturopaths... that vaccines "weaken the immune system".
http://www.naturowatch.org/general/beyerstein.html


http://webspace.webring.com/people/il/lmorgan/fearmongers/opposition_to_immunization.htm

Do vaccines weaken the immune system?

On the contrary, in Germany, a study of 496 vaccinated and unvaccinated children found that children who received immunizations against diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus, Hib, and polio within the first 3 months of life had fewer infections with vaccine-related and -unrelated pathogens than the nonvaccinated group.61

Bacterial and viral infections, on the other hand, often predispose children and adults to severe, invasive infections with other pathogens. For example, patients with pneumococcal pneumonia are more likely to have had a recent influenza infection than matched controls. Similarly, varicella infection increases susceptibility to group A ß-hemolytic streptococcal infections such as necrotizing fasciitis, toxic shock syndrome, and bacteremia.63

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/109/1/124

 

[luchog]

Well then, this makes you an expert on the subject.

Evasion again. You've still failed to address any of the points I've made, instead choosing to make vague personal attacks and attempt to deny your own words.

Do you actually have any valid counterpoints?

 

[Eos of the Eons]

I guess valid counterpoints would be kind of, unrealistic. No fun though, nobody wants to play anymore.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

...we should heed the words of Dr. Arnold S. Relman, M.D., a Professor Emeritus of Medicine and of Social Medicine at Harvard Medical School, writing about the main reference work for naturopathic physicians –
“ The Textbook of Natural Medicine is inadequate as a teaching tool, as it omits to mention or treat in detail many common ailments, improperly emphasizes treatments “not likely to be effective” over those that are, and promotes unproven herbal remedies at the expense of pharmaceuticals.” He concludes that “the risks to many sick patients seeking care from the average naturopathic practitioner would far outweigh any possible benefits.”

http://silverbuzzcafe.com/?p=6233

 

[Safe-Keeper]

I love the argument that there are doctors who over-prescribe and other money-hungry instances out there, and that therefore, you should go to naturopaths instead. OK, so given two options when faced with an overprescribing doctor:

a) Go to more professional doctor.

b) Throw baby out with bathwater (holding it while it takes its last breath optional).

You should choose b? Makes no sense.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

I love the argument that there are doctors who over-prescribe and other money-hungry instances out there, and that therefore, you should go to naturopaths instead. OK, so given two options when faced with an overprescribing doctor:

a) Go to more professional doctor.

b) Throw baby out with bathwater (holding it while it takes its last breath optional).

You should choose b? Makes no sense.

Well, the claims of all doctors being pill pushers instead of giving healthy living advice (lose weight so you don't need heart meds) is incredibly over hyped and I've never had that experience. I'd like to see a credible study done to see if any doctors are overprescribing. I'd also like to see if patients are going to more than one doctor to ask for meds they are then just selling on the street. Unscrupulous doctos that are overprescribing without working with pharmacists to see that their prescriptions are being abused are usually punished once proven. Scientologists and alties are the huge pushers of the myth of pill pushing doctors.

Of course they want you to dump the baby out with the bathwater, they want to make money off you instead of having you actually treated by a real doctor. How can they sell their hebal junk and homeopathy and numerous adjustments if you are happy just seeing a regular science based doctor that does not actually sell you anything (it's pharmacists that sell drugs, not doctors, and pharmacists can't sell you real drugs without a prescription).

 

[Eos of the Eons]

How many naturopaths sell you junk directly? Yet they try to claim doctors make money off of drugs? Who is selling you what?

 

[T.A.M.]

ok, I have a few comments on it, as it really annoys me. I am referring to the Canadian System, as it is what I am part of. In Canada, we are paid by our provincial governments through a medicare plan. SO people get health care via their taxes which pay for the plan.

1. I do not get paid (A) for the drugs I prescribe, or (B) to prescribe you a particular type fo drug or therapy.
2. If I refer you to a specialist, or for Physiotherapy, or any other therapy etc.. I do not get paid anything for it.
3. If I send you for an investigation (xr, ct, mri, u/s) I do not get paid for doing so.
4. If you call in on the phone and ask me to call in a refill of your prescriptions, I do not get paid for it.
5. The medicines and therapies I prescribe are scientifically proven to work

THE ONLY TIME I GET PAID IS FOR THE VISIT YOU MAKE TO MY OFFICE. The GOVT sets the rate.

compare that to the naturopaths etc...

1. They charge you for the visit. They set the rate.
2. They charge you for the therapy. They set the rate.
3. They charge you for the medicine. They set the rate.
4. They're therapies, with RARE exception, have no scientific evidence that they work.

TAM

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

ok, I have a few comments on it, as it really annoys me. I am referring to the Canadian System, as it is what I am part of. In Canada, we are paid by our provincial governments through a medicare plan. SO people get health care via their taxes which pay for the plan.

1. I do not get paid (A) for the drugs I prescribe, or (B) to prescribe you a particular type fo drug or therapy.
2. If I refer you to a specialist, or for Physiotherapy, or any other therapy etc.. I do not get paid anything for it.
3. If I send you for an investigation (xr, ct, mri, u/s) I do not get paid for doing so.
4. If you call in on the phone and ask me to call in a refill of your prescriptions, I do not get paid for it.
5. The medicines and therapies I prescribe are scientifically proven to work

THE ONLY TIME I GET PAID IS FOR THE VISIT YOU MAKE TO MY OFFICE. The GOVT sets the rate.

compare that to the naturopaths etc...

1. They charge you for the visit. They set the rate.
2. They charge you for the therapy. They set the rate.
3. They charge you for the medicine. They set the rate.
4. They're therapies, with RARE exception, have no scientific evidence that they work.

TAM

TAM, just one minor correction to what you wrote (and I am only posting this because of the current "situation" in the US of A and fear you may be quote mined). The provincial medical associations actually negotiate the fees and fee structure with the provincial governments. I have sat in on the negotiation meetings between the OPA (pharmacists) and the Ontario Government. I know that there is a bit of give and take and both parties have their eyes cocked toward the voting public. The ultimate threat the MDs and pharmacists have is the withdrawal of services.

 

[T.A.M.]

You are correct. The fee schedule is negotiated between the provincial medical association (representing the MDs - its members) and the provincial govt. I should not have presented it as if it was non-negotiable, but it is only ever so about once every 3-4 years, and even then (take a look at New Brunswick and elsewhere) the govt seems to think it has the right to simply tear up the MOUs.

TAM

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Well, if anyone is interested, I have a private practice in the US. I set my fees. I charge a fee for service. I make money per dose of vaccine plus a number of other services/drugs I provide.

I have raised my rates 3 times in 17 years. I charge less for vaccine than everyone else. I don't charge the full amount insurers will reimburse which seems to be the practice of many vaccine providers.

Most importantly, I follow the ACIP guidelines and though I have had many opportunities to give someone a vaccine because they don't know if they've already had it, I do not unless considerable attempts to verify a vaccine history fails.

I give phone consults all the time and though my service agreement says I charge for those, I almost never do. I take as much time as is needed to answer people's vaccine questions before vaccinating them including chipping away as best I can at the massive amount of junk information that is out there. That junk information costs me a lot of time.

I do promote vaccine use. I do so because that is what the scientific medical evidence supports. I do not promote anything that is not evidence based.