Merged E-4B flying around pentagon / Norman Mineta timeline

[Sam.I.Am]

But while I was talking to the FAA, someone broke into the conversation and said, 'Mr. Secretary, we have just had confirmation from the Arlington County Police Department that they saw a commercial airliner-an American airline-go into the Pentagon.

The highlighted part is what you're overlooking. Today, in hindsight, we know what it was that hit the pentagon but on that morning it wasn't quite so clear right off of the bat. It was reported as a truck bomb, a helicopter crash and an airplane crash in the first hour or so. So in that light they knew something had happened but they didn't know what exactly caused it.

 

[Senenmut]

The highlighted part is what you're overlooking. Today, in hindsight, we know what it was that hit the pentagon but on that morning it wasn't quite so clear right off of the bat. It was reported as a truck bomb, a helicopter crash and an airplane crash in the first hour or so. So in that light they knew something had happened but they didn't know what exactly caused it.

i get what your saying. but...
we have the explosion and the confirmation right here.
http://www.dailycal.org/printable.php?id=8072

heres a good interview from mineta-
"Then they came in and said it was 10 miles out. Soon after that, I was talking to the deputy director of the FAA, and he told me they had lost the target off the screen. Soon after that, then, the vice president was informed that there was an explosion at the Pentagon. So I was trying to relate with the air traffic controllers where that plane went to see whether it was close to the Pentagon. The radar is very difficult to pinpoint it to a ground location.

But while I was talking to the FAA, someone broke into the conversation and said, 'Mr. Secretary, we have just had confirmation from the Arlington County Police Department that they saw a commercial airliner-an American airline-go into the Pentagon."

just think about gofer06 and check out the wikileaks and see for yourself how it would be hard to believe that the peoc would not of had confirmation for 40 mins after the fact.

 

[Sam.I.Am]

The first people on the scenes job is to save lives and their first calls will be to request assistance, not inform someone that it was an airplane vs. a truck bomb or helicopter. For them the cause is moot, something really bad happened and they have to deal with it right now. Investigations are for later. After the scene is under control. If you get in a bad car wreck the EMTs and firemen isn't going to care what kind of car it was that hit you. The cop investigating the accident will write it up later, after you are on the way to the hospital. That's how it works in the real world. People are always first.

Now then, I agree that it was important information for the PEOC to have at the time but the people in the middle of the mass casualty scene didn't know that at the time and there's no reason for them to pass on (what was to them) irrelevant information and clogging up the radio waves that were better served for saving lives.

 

[CORed]

To set the conspiracy hounds running Tri. I thought that would be obvious.

So you're saying that the government wanted to encourage conspiracy theories? For what purpose? Identifying morons for extermination to facilitate a eugenics program?

 

[JoeyDonuts]

Identifying morons for extermination to facilitate a eugenics program?

*jots down notes for his handlers at FEMA Funtime Death Camps, L.L.C.*

 

[MikeW]

describe for us how lynne cheney describes the evacuation in the interview you posted....

Ah, so you want to ignore the log reference? Of course you do: you've no answer, beyond I suppose hoping that it's forged.

Unfortunately for you, the log agrees with Mineta's statement of seeing the evacuation (9:45+); with Garvey's statement of hearing about Delta problems between the third and fourth crashes; with Lynne Cheney's account of only arriving after the Pentagon was hit.

It also agrees with this story about the 9:45 "bring down all the planes" order, where they say Mineta didn't call in to the FAA from the PEOC until at least 15 minutes after the order went out:

Phillips told his audience he felt it necessary to make a "historical correction," although FAA officials had begged him to maintain the fiction. Phillips proposed, charitably, that Mineta's order was a simple misunderstanding; that the secretary was unaware that "[f]or at least 15 minutes before Mineta's conversation with the FAA, controllers were bringing the planes down ... at the nearest airport." Phillips continued:
http://www.slate.com/?id=2063935

It also agrees with the content of Clarke's book, if not his timing, that shows Mineta hadn't arrived when his 9:40+ conversations with the FAA were taking place.

It also agrees with Garvey's comment in one of her MFRs that Mineta needed to be brought more into the decision-making process, suggesting he'd been out of the loop for a while (something Clarke confirms): makes no sense for a 9:20 arrival, perfect sense if it was after 10.

And what are you countering this with - the PEOC awareness of the Pentagon crash. Which, even if we say you are right, doesn't prove Mineta's timeline at all.

So we're back with what I said earlier: the balance of evidence clearly shows Mineta arrived after the Pentagon was hit. Clearly. Your ignoring this evidence won't make it go away.

 

[funk de fino]

heres a good interview from mineta-
"Then they came in and said it was 10 miles out. Soon after that, I was talking to the deputy director of the FAA, and he told me they had lost the target off the screen. Soon after that, then, the vice president was informed that there was an explosion at the Pentagon. So I was trying to relate with the air traffic controllers where that plane went to see whether it was close to the Pentagon. The radar is very difficult to pinpoint it to a ground location.

But while I was talking to the FAA, someone broke into the conversation and said, 'Mr. Secretary, we have just had confirmation from the Arlington County Police Department that they saw a commercial airliner-an American airline-go into the Pentagon.

have ya looked through wikileaks yet. just try doing a control F for find and type in "pentagon". tell me about the times you find!!

so according to mrs cheney, she already know the pentagon had been attacked. i guess she forgot to tell her hubby!! because of his quote here:
cheney: "But when I arrived there within a short order, we had word the Pentagon's been hit."

i guess GOFER06 would not of made a good confirmation? multiple lines of confirmation would have been available very quickly....NOT 40 mins after flight 93 crashed.

You are being ignorant or you do not speak English as your first language because even a child can understand this. Mrs Cheney was speaking after the fact. His quote is about the confirmation. He had seen the smoke from the Pentagon area already.

Mineta says Mrs Cheney was there when he arrived. She did not arrive until after flight 77 crashed therefore Mineta is wrong.

Stick to the point please. Go and read the controller statements.

 

[funk de fino]

describe for us how lynne cheney describes the evacuation in the interview you posted....

certainly

As soon as the plane began to put the White House in danger, the plane that eventually went into the Pentagon, the Secret Service decided I shouldn't be downtown anymore, and we rushed toward the vice president's house. That plane that going into the White House then, as you remembered, or I think that's where it was headed, did a big circle and headed to the Pentagon. As soon as that plane was down, tragically, at the Pentagon, the Secret Service decided that the best place for me to be safe would not be at the vice president's house but down beneath, in the hardened part of the White House.

she was moved to the PEOC after the plane was down then.

On 9-11, for example, she [Lynne Cheney] was spirited away by Secret Service agents who decided to bring her to the White House's underground bunker. But she arrived just as the White House was being evacuated. With everybody heading for the exits, security people were suspicious of anybody trying to get in. "And they weren't sure who this might be, to the point of blocking the entrance with a fire engine so we couldn't get in," says Cheney. She eventually joined her husband in the bunker. The VP still spends many nights away from home for security reasons. Asked which of the undisclosed locations her husband likes best, Cheney said, "The ones that come stocked with quail."

She arrived as the evacuation was being carried out and had to argue with the security to get in.

game over

 

[Senenmut]

Ah, so you want to ignore the log reference? Of course you do: you've no answer, beyond I suppose hoping that it's forged.

Unfortunately for you, the log agrees with Mineta's statement of seeing the evacuation (9:45+); with Garvey's statement of hearing about Delta problems between the third and fourth crashes; with Lynne Cheney's account of only arriving after the Pentagon was hit.

It also agrees with this story about the 9:45 "bring down all the planes" order, where they say Mineta didn't call in to the FAA from the PEOC until at least 15 minutes after the order went out:



It also agrees with the content of Clarke's book, if not his timing, that shows Mineta hadn't arrived when his 9:40+ conversations with the FAA were taking place.

It also agrees with Garvey's comment in one of her MFRs that Mineta needed to be brought more into the decision-making process, suggesting he'd been out of the loop for a while (something Clarke confirms): makes no sense for a 9:20 arrival, perfect sense if it was after 10.

And what are you countering this with - the PEOC awareness of the Pentagon crash. Which, even if we say you are right, doesn't prove Mineta's timeline at all.

So we're back with what I said earlier: the balance of evidence clearly shows Mineta arrived after the Pentagon was hit. Clearly. Your ignoring this evidence won't make it go away.

ignore the evidence...something that could have been altered for national security reasons.

you still didnt describe what lynn cheney said about the evacuation at the white house.

 

[Senenmut]

certainly



she was moved to the PEOC after the plane was down then.




She arrived as the evacuation was being carried out and had to argue with the security to get in.

game over

page 3. she states they were leaving "rather calm" when she arrived.

 

[MikeW]

ignore the evidence...something that could have been altered for national security reasons.

Mineta said he arrived during the evacuation. He's said so all along. No-one altered it. Therefore he arrived after the Pentagon was hit.

Lynne Cheney said she arrived during the evacuation. She's said so all along. No-one altered it. There was no reason to lie.

Mineta said he arrived after Lynne Cheney. No-one altered that (you pointed us to the video).

Mineta said Garvey called him before he left for the White House to report Delta couldn't track all its aircraft. Garvey has said this happened after the Pentagon was hit. Therefore Mineta arrived at the PEOC after the Pentagon was hit.

You can pretend that the log time is faked, if you like. Trouble is, you've no evidence for that, and the fact is that the log isn't contradicting anything here. The only account that doesn't make sense here, that is proven incorrect by the weight of the other evidence, is Mineta's 9:20 arrival time. It did not, and could not have happened that way.

you still didnt describe what lynn cheney said about the evacuation at the white house.

What, you ignore everything I put forward, yet I'm supposed to jump whenever you call? Don't think so. If you want to make a point, then make it. Don't forget to explain how that point proves Mineta was in the PEOC at 9:20 and overrides all the other evidence, though.

 

[BCR]

If you want to make a point, then make it. Don't forget to explain how that point proves Mineta was in the PEOC at 9:20 and overrides all the other evidence, though.

Yes, I wish he would. Somehow I lost how Mineta is connected to the E4B OP of the thread. So please, hurry up and connect the 'point' of all this.

 

[MikeW]

Yes, I wish he would. Somehow I lost how Mineta is connected to the E4B OP of the thread. So please, hurry up and connect the 'point' of all this.

Welcome back!

You're right, this is just a diversion really - the fork started here & so Mineta's timeline is relevant to that post. Trouble is, that post doesn't bear much relation to the real E4B arguments. And as I'm getting bored with repeating myself Mineta-wise, then as you say, now is probably a good time to get back on track.

 

[BCR]

As some may know, I worked with Gaffney on the 911 Mystery Plane book putting together the RADES and FAA radar data (among other things). If I recall correctly, WORD31 took off before the arrival of AAL77 and headed pretty much straight towards Offutt AFB with a standard Camp Springs One departure (followed by GOFER06). Nothing sinister about that since Offutt is where the plane was based. Also, another E4B was 'stuck' on the ground which we have ATC audio for (I don't recall the AFB off hand).

So after the Pentagon was hit, it made sense that they would want to get the 'stand by' E4B in the air as rapidly as possible. Once airborne and flying in unrestricted airspace (it never did enter restricted airspace), it was diverted south to support AF1 which was originally headed back to DC from Florida. However, that plan changed when AF1 changed course to the west, at which time VENUS77 took up a holding pattern south of DC over NC. When AF1 headed on to Offutt, VENUS77 followed.

At no point was an E4B 'flying around the Pentagon'. With 4 local ASR's and 3 ARSR radars covering the DC area, it would be close to impossible to cover up a 747 (even with anti-reflective paint) signature. Not to mention the plane would have to talk to the ATC at Andrews and/or DCA at some point.

I know it is fun to speculate, but the truth is rather mundane. Command and control was under attack, so airborne command and control was put up ASAP. I would be more alarmed if they had not put up the E4B.

 

[funk de fino]

page 3. she states they were leaving "rather calm" when she arrived.

Before Mineta then? People were running when Mineta arrived.

Please explain how Mineta saw Mrs Cheney with Dastardly Dick when he arrived if she was there after the crash of 77?

 

[gumboot]

i know it does:
The White House Has Been Evacuated

Aired September 11, 2001 - 09:52 ET

Just moments ago they started slowing evacuating the White House about 30 minutes ago. Then, in the last five minute people have come running out of the White House and the old executive office building, which is the office building right directly across from the White House.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/11/bn.06.html

Er... The USA was in Daylight Savings at the time of the attacks, so 09:52 ET is 10:52 EDT.

Do you try at all?

 

[Senenmut]

Mineta said he arrived during the evacuation. He's said so all along. No-one altered it. Therefore he arrived after the Pentagon was hit.

Lynne Cheney said she arrived during the evacuation. She's said so all along. No-one altered it. There was no reason to lie.

Mineta said he arrived after Lynne Cheney. No-one altered that (you pointed us to the video).

Mineta said Garvey called him before he left for the White House to report Delta couldn't track all its aircraft. Garvey has said this happened after the Pentagon was hit. Therefore Mineta arrived at the PEOC after the Pentagon was hit.

You can pretend that the log time is faked, if you like. Trouble is, you've no evidence for that, and the fact is that the log isn't contradicting anything here. The only account that doesn't make sense here, that is proven incorrect by the weight of the other evidence, is Mineta's 9:20 arrival time. It did not, and could not have happened that way.


What, you ignore everything I put forward, yet I'm supposed to jump whenever you call? Don't think so. If you want to make a point, then make it. Don't forget to explain how that point proves Mineta was in the PEOC at 9:20 and overrides all the other evidence, though.

the thing is, your telling me mineta could not have been there before the "official evacuation" because he stated people were running. and the article i linked shows that the whitehouse was "slowing evacuating the White House about 30 minutes ago" which would put it at about 920ish. now lynn cheney comes in and says that people were going in the direction in a rather "calm" way.
your telling me she arrived when it was being evacuated but she describes it as being calm?? and the way she describes the whole "the plane is 60 miles out" scenario is totally different and time wise different than minetas.

 

[BCR]

the thing is, your telling me mineta could not have been there before the "official evacuation" because he stated people were running. and the article i linked shows that the whitehouse was "slowing evacuating the White House about 30 minutes ago" which would put it at about 920ish. now lynn cheney comes in and says that people were going in the direction in a rather "calm" way.
your telling me she arrived when it was being evacuated but she describes it as being calm?? and the way she describes the whole "the plane is 60 miles out" scenario is totally different and time wise different than minetas.

Have you watched the archived video of the evacuation from CNN? Both cases are true depending upon which time a person arrived. I have a copy of the entire video which I would share, but copyright prevents me from doing so. But I think it is still available in segments online at the CNN archives. The evacuation began just before the Pentagon was hit. If you listen to the conversations in the background, you'll get a better understanding of when the evac began, and that people only slowly learned what the evac was all about and that the Pentagon had been hit.

 

[Senenmut]

As some may know, I worked with Gaffney on the 911 Mystery Plane book putting together the RADES and FAA radar data (among other things). If I recall correctly, WORD31 took off before the arrival of AAL77 and headed pretty much straight towards Offutt AFB with a standard Camp Springs One departure (followed by GOFER06). Nothing sinister about that since Offutt is where the plane was based. Also, another E4B was 'stuck' on the ground which we have ATC audio for (I don't recall the AFB off hand).

So after the Pentagon was hit, it made sense that they would want to get the 'stand by' E4B in the air as rapidly as possible. Once airborne and flying in unrestricted airspace (it never did enter restricted airspace), it was diverted south to support AF1 which was originally headed back to DC from Florida. However, that plan changed when AF1 changed course to the west, at which time VENUS77 took up a holding pattern south of DC over NC. When AF1 headed on to Offutt, VENUS77 followed.

At no point was an E4B 'flying around the Pentagon'. With 4 local ASR's and 3 ARSR radars covering the DC area, it would be close to impossible to cover up a 747 (even with anti-reflective paint) signature. Not to mention the plane would have to talk to the ATC at Andrews and/or DCA at some point.

I know it is fun to speculate, but the truth is rather mundane. Command and control was under attack, so airborne command and control was put up ASAP. I would be more alarmed if they had not put up the E4B.

lets see your flight path you have for sword31. from what im reading, it doesnt look like a "pretty much straight towards Offutt AFB " as you put it.

 

[BCR]

If you have a copy of Mark's book, I generated an RS3 plot for the book. If not, buy a copy.