Merged E-4B flying around pentagon / Norman Mineta timeline

[funk de fino]

monte said "we're". that means there was more than one person looking at that radar. and you are wrong with the coast track. they might have their own "secret bunker", who knows at faa headquaters! it would be nice to interview monte now wouldnt it!!!

from a cheapshot quote at pft:
"Someone watching the actual radar display would first see a free track with no target, loss of altitude infromation, and eventually the track would turn into a coast track, and just float until the edge of the scope."

and you still havent expained how a coast track or tsd could pass the pentagon come back and into the pentagon and mineta stated.

Monte says "we're" as in the controllers. He was not with them and he could not see it. It was being called to him over the phone from the ATC supervisor. I have already told you where to find this information. Go and read the statements and stop being an idiot.

As for being nice to interview him, his interview is available. Read it.

The coast track did not turn around the Pentagon that was the real radar track from Flight 77 that was produced later. The only people who watched that were the controllers. Mineta saw this later.

 

[funk de fino]

well, you know how uninfored the national security council guys are if mineta did get there 20 mins after the pentagon got attacked. even though by then it was all over the news!! maybe the peoc should of had a tv on to get "confirmation"!!!!

mineta:
"When I got to the White House it was being evacuated, I met briefly with Richard Clark, a National Security Council staff member who had no new information, before the Secret Service escorted me down to the Presidential Emergency Operations Center (PEOC).

When he arrived Lynn Cheney was already there and she was only evacuated to the PEOC after flight 77 hit the Penatgon. The evacuation only happened after the Pentagon was hit. There was a TV in the tunnel near the PEOC and smoke was seen to be coming from the Pentagon. At this point they had no confirmation what had happend, they got this later when a policeman phoned it in and this confirmation was what Mineta heard.

You need to read the sources and stop repeating crap.

 

[funk de fino]

Let me see if this makes it easier for you.

MINETA: "Well, the question was where is it coming. And so as I was asking Monte, it was following pretty much the DRA, the down river approach, and it had not crossed over towards the White House or towards the Capitol. It was staying on its line towards what would normally be the traffic pattern into National Airport"

This part is what was being called out from the coast track from Flight 93. Monte was getting this info from the controllers. It was heading on Flight 93 last known heading towards DC from about 10 miles north west of Manassas airport.

Mineta: "And in fact, later on, in looking at the radar track, the plane had actually over-passed the Pentagon, then turned around and then came back into it, and it never took a wide sweep to cross over to the east side of the White House."

This part is when he looked at the radar track for Flight 77 at a later date it showed the turn that Hani Hanjour flew. This was not the coast track this was the real radar return for 77. Mineta is mixing them up because his times are wrong.

 

[MikeW]

mineta:
"When I got to the White House it was being evacuated, I met briefly with Richard Clark, a National Security Council staff member who had no new information, before the Secret Service escorted me down to the Presidential Emergency Operations Center (PEOC).

The first part of that sentence reinforces the point, doesn't it? Elsewhere he describes scenes of people running out of the buildings and moving over to Lafayette Park, scenes that absolutely no-one else at all says happened until some time after the Pentagon was hit.

 

[A W Smith]

The balance of evidence clearly shows that Mineta's timeline is wrong: he wasn't in the PEOC at 9:20, & in fact didn't arrive until some time after the Pentagon had been hit.

there's no mention of a white house evacuation at wikileaks until 9:42 am.

http://911.wikileaks.org/files/messages_2001_09_11-09_40_2001_09_11-09_44.html

 

[Senenmut]

The first part of that sentence reinforces the point, doesn't it? Elsewhere he describes scenes of people running out of the buildings and moving over to Lafayette Park, scenes that absolutely no-one else at all says happened until some time after the Pentagon was hit.

i know it does:
The White House Has Been Evacuated

Aired September 11, 2001 - 09:52 ET

Just moments ago they started slowing evacuating the White House about 30 minutes ago. Then, in the last five minute people have come running out of the White House and the old executive office building, which is the office building right directly across from the White House.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/11/bn.06.html

 

[MikeW]

i know it does:
The White House Has Been Evacuated

Aired September 11, 2001 - 09:52 ET

Just moments ago they started slowing evacuating the White House about 30 minutes ago. Then, in the last five minute people have come running out of the White House and the old executive office building, which is the office building right directly across from the White House.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/11/bn.06.html

I don't believe you would "slowly" evacuate the White House in an emergency. I don't think CNN do, either, because in later timelines they said the White House wasn't evacuated until after the Pentagon was hit. And even if they're correct, that's not early enough. 9:52 - 30 minutes = 9:22; Mineta still needs to drive up, go through security, get to the situation room, spend 4 or 5 minutes with Clarke and get to the PEOC, all for 9:20.

Still, as you brought it up, let's use that source. Here's more of what King said (same link):

JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESP.: Aaron, I'm standing in Lafayette Park, directly across the White House, perhaps about 200 yards away from the White House residence itself. The Secret Service has pushed most people all the way back to the other side of the park. I'm trying to avoid having that done to me at the moment.

Just moments ago they started slowing evacuating the White House about 30 minutes ago. Then, in the last five minute people have come running out of the White House and the old executive office building

So: according to your source, the initial evacuation was slow (I'll say). Then, since roughly 9:47 people have come running out of the White House and the Old Executive Building. In this report he mentions for the first time that people are being moved across Lafayette Park, so it's reasonable to assume that's happened recently, too.

Now here's Mineta:

we drove into the White House on West Executive Drive. People were coming out of the White House, pouring out of the Executive Office Building, running over towards Lafayette Park, and I said to my driver and security person, I said, "Hey, is there something wrong with this picture, cause here we are driving in and everybody else is running out."
web archive

It's a very good match for what King said has happened around 9:47 to 9:52, isn't it? Or are you going to claim that's just a coincidence?

 

[Senenmut]

there's no mention of a white house evacuation at wikileaks until 9:42 am.

http://911.wikileaks.org/files/messages_2001_09_11-09_40_2001_09_11-09_44.html

and wiki also has that there was a plane down at the pentagon between 0940-0942. do you think the peoc wasnt notified or confirmed until 30 mins later? especially with the links the vice pres has at his disposal?

also---i belive this was 5 days after 911.
BEGIN MEET THE PRESS EXCERPT
VICE PRES. CHENEY: …The president was on Air Force One. We
received a threat to Air Force One--came through the Secret Service...
MR. RUSSERT: A credible threat to Air Force One. You're convinced of
that.
VICE PRES. CHENEY: I'm convinced of that. Now, you know, it may
have been phoned in by a crank, but in the midst of what was going on,
there was no way to know that. I think it was a credible threat, enough for
the Secret Service to bring it to me. Once I left that immediate shelter,
after I talked to the president, urged him to stay away for now, well, I went
down into what's call a PEOC, the Presidential Emergency Operations
Center, and there, I had Norm Mineta...

MR. RUSSERT: Secretary of Transportation.

VICE PRES. CHENEY: ...secretary of Transportation, access to the FAA.
I had Condi Rice with me and several of my key staff people. We had
access, secured communications with Air Force One, with the secretary of
Defense over in the Pentagon. We had also the secure videoconference
that ties together the White House, CIA, State, Justice, Defense--a very
useful and valuable facility. We have the counterterrorism task force up on
that net. And so I was in a position to be able to see all the stuff coming in,
receive reports and then make decisions in terms of acting with it.
But when I arrived there within a short order, we had word the Pentagon's been hit.

 

[Senenmut]

I don't believe you would "slowly" evacuate the White House in an emergency. I don't think CNN do, either, because in later timelines they said the White House wasn't evacuated until after the Pentagon was hit. And even if they're correct, that's not early enough. 9:52 - 30 minutes = 9:22; Mineta still needs to drive up, go through security, get to the situation room, spend 4 or 5 minutes with Clarke and get to the PEOC, all for 9:20.

Still, as you brought it up, let's use that source. Here's more of what King said (same link):



So: according to your source, the initial evacuation was slow (I'll say). Then, since roughly 9:47 people have come running out of the White House and the Old Executive Building. In this report he mentions for the first time that people are being moved across Lafayette Park, so it's reasonable to assume that's happened recently, too.

Now here's Mineta:



It's a very good match for what King said has happened around 9:47 to 9:52, isn't it? Or are you going to claim that's just a coincidence?

let norman mineta tell ya what he thinks about the 10 oclock scenario. he worked just right down the street.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-5P...w.jonesreport.com/articles/260607_mineta.html

 

[MikeW]

let norman mineta tell ya what he thinks about the 10 oclock scenario. he worked just right down the street.

Sure, he thinks he arrived at 9:20. His own testimony tells us he's wrong.

But as you bought this up, Mineta also says here that Cheney's wife was there when he arrived. She's consistently said she arrived after the Pentagon was hit, for example here:

Q Well, let's go, if we can, then, to the morning that it happened. Tell me where you were and what you were doing as this event happened.

MRS. CHENEY: I was downtown. And the Secret Service let me know when one plane had hit, and when the second plane went in. But when the Pentagon was hit, they decided I should be out of downtown, and moved me rather briskly into a car, which went at rather high speed toward the Vice President's house.

When we got partway there, a decision was made -- and I don't know why or how -- that, no, the right thing for me-to do was not go to the Vice President's house, but to go to the White House and to go down into the bunker.

And so we made a rather dramatic U-turn in the middle of the street and headed toward the White House. I can remember that I could see smoke. And I was feeling somewhat alarmed because I thought the smoke -- even though it was from the Pentagon and I knew the Pentagon had been hit -- it sure looked to me like the smoke was coming from the White House.

When we got there, I arrived just as the White House was being evacuated. So the guards had no idea who we were and were confused that somebody would want to be coming in, and wouldn't lower the barriers. The Secret Service people who were with me drove onto the sidewalk. And at that point, a fire engine tried to block our way --

Q Wow. _

MRS. CHENEY: -- going into the White House. But I finally got in...
http://911myths.com/index.php/Image:NYC_Box10_FarmerMisc-MrsCheneyInterview.pdf

That's November 2001, before this was even an issue, so I see no reason for her to be making this up.

 

[Cheap Shot]

from a cheapshot quote at pft:
"Someone watching the actual radar display would first see a free track with no target, loss of altitude infromation, and eventually the track would turn into a coast track, and just float until the edge of the scope."

and you still havent expained how a coast track or tsd could pass the pentagon come back and into the pentagon and mineta stated.

First of all coast tracks are on radar displays that the controller see's. The TSD does not distinquish this the same way. There is somewhere if you click on the Data Block on the TSD it will let you know if it is updating or not, but if it was last on a flight plan it will continue on the flight plan. Where as on our Radar displays it could continue on a present heading, or it may just float, but either way it stops at the end of our scopes, we call it under the rubber, the old M1 concoles had a rubber piece around the scope. At the end of the day you could expand your range to 400 NM, and you would see all of the data blocks at the end of our adaped sort boxes and they would be sitting there blinking. These were either tracks that were manually handed off to Canada that someone forgot to delete, or in the case of AAL11 no handed it off so it continued under the rubber.

Other questions, I couldn't really get much from the Dave Canoles paper work, a lot of notes scribbled. I wish I would have kept mine but they got tossed. I wish someone would interview Dave. That was the Telcon I was on, it may not have been him who told me AAL11 was still airborne but it came from his office. I beleive he had several people in his office.

As far as E-4B's taking off of ADW they squawk like everyone else, you don't sneak a B747 off ADW without anyone knowing about it. Don't know if you are aware of it but it has been going on for years, but there are bird watchers at most military bases. They sit at the end of the runways and log tail numbers of every departure, and track them. If they don't return they get online with all of their buddies and try to find where it went. It's a game for them, but it is also a way for our enemies to track the where abouts of certain aircraft. Can pretty much guarantee they are active at ADW.

 

[funk de fino]

and wiki also has that there was a plane down at the pentagon between 0940-0942. do you think the peoc wasnt notified or confirmed until 30 mins later? especially with the links the vice pres has at his disposal?

also---i belive this was 5 days after 911.
BEGIN MEET THE PRESS EXCERPT
VICE PRES. CHENEY: …The president was on Air Force One. We
received a threat to Air Force One--came through the Secret Service...
MR. RUSSERT: A credible threat to Air Force One. You're convinced of
that.
VICE PRES. CHENEY: I'm convinced of that. Now, you know, it may
have been phoned in by a crank, but in the midst of what was going on,
there was no way to know that. I think it was a credible threat, enough for
the Secret Service to bring it to me. Once I left that immediate shelter,
after I talked to the president, urged him to stay away for now, well, I went
down into what's call a PEOC, the Presidential Emergency Operations
Center, and there, I had Norm Mineta...

MR. RUSSERT: Secretary of Transportation.

VICE PRES. CHENEY: ...secretary of Transportation, access to the FAA.
I had Condi Rice with me and several of my key staff people. We had
access, secured communications with Air Force One, with the secretary of
Defense over in the Pentagon. We had also the secure videoconference
that ties together the White House, CIA, State, Justice, Defense--a very
useful and valuable facility. We have the counterterrorism task force up on
that net. And so I was in a position to be able to see all the stuff coming in,
receive reports and then make decisions in terms of acting with it.
But when I arrived there within a short order, we had word the Pentagon's been hit.

What part of confirmed do you not understand? He knew prior to this something had happened as he saw smoke rising from the Pentagon on a TV in the bunker pror to the PEOC.

 

[funk de fino]

let norman mineta tell ya what he thinks about the 10 oclock scenario. he worked just right down the street.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-5P...w.jonesreport.com/articles/260607_mineta.html

Please explain how he saw Lynn Cheney when he arrived, as she arrived later as has been shown to you already?

Have you read the controllers statemnts yet or are you just jackin off here?

 

[Senenmut]

Sure, he thinks he arrived at 9:20. His own testimony tells us he's wrong.

But as you bought this up, Mineta also says here that Cheney's wife was there when he arrived. She's consistently said she arrived after the Pentagon was hit, for example here:



That's November 2001, before this was even an issue, so I see no reason for her to be making this up.

she tells a totally different scenario. if you read the interview, she states when the plane was 60 miles out that it was downed. then another plane was 10 miles out and that that plane hit the ground. then a plane 5 miles out. she doesnt say what happened there.


this part was pretty funny i read over at historycommons.
"But Army Major Mike Fenzel, who is also in the PEOC, complains to him, “I can’t hear the crisis conference [that Clarke has been leading] because Mrs. Cheney keeps turning down the volume on you so she can hear CNN… and the vice president keeps hanging up the open line to you.” Clarke later describes that Lynne Cheney is, like her husband, “a right-wing ideologue,” and is offering her advice and opinions while in the PEOC."

so your really trying to tell me that even though lynn cheney knew the pentagon got hit (like in her interview) went to the peoc, was watching cnn, and the vice pres didn know the pentagon got hit? and norman mineta didnt know the pentagon got hit!! your really stretching!

what did the vice pres say agian:
" And so I was in a position to be able to see all the stuff coming in, receive reports and then make decisions in terms of acting with it.
But when I arrived there within a short order, we had word the Pentagon's been hit."

that short order according to yall would be in the 1035-11 oclock range. doesnt make any since. they knew a plane hit (according to wiki) a few mins after the attack.

 

[Senenmut]

Please explain how he saw Lynn Cheney when he arrived, as she arrived later as has been shown to you already?

Have you read the controllers statemnts yet or are you just jackin off here?

"But Army Major Mike Fenzel, who is also in the PEOC, complains to him, “I can’t hear the crisis conference [that Clarke has been leading] because Mrs. Cheney keeps turning down the volume on you so she can hear CNN… and the vice president keeps hanging up the open line to you.” Clarke later describes that Lynne Cheney is, like her husband, “a right-wing ideologue,” and is offering her advice and opinions while in the PEOC."

a right wing idealogue...!! she took one out of joseph goebbels playbooks!!

 

[MikeW]

she tells a totally different scenario.

Once again you ignore the point. Mineta says Lynne Cheney was at the PEOC when he arrived. Lynne Cheney has said from the beginning that she arrived after the Pentagon was hit, has provided a very detailed account of that, and because this wasn't even an issue at the time, had no reason to lie.

so your really trying to tell me that even though lynn cheney knew the pentagon got hit (like in her interview) went to the peoc, was watching cnn, and the vice pres didn know the pentagon got hit? and norman mineta didnt know the pentagon got hit!! your really stretching!

what did the vice pres say agian:
" And so I was in a position to be able to see all the stuff coming in, receive reports and then make decisions in terms of acting with it.
But when I arrived there within a short order, we had word the Pentagon's been hit."

that short order according to yall would be in the 1035-11 oclock range. doesnt make any since. they knew a plane hit (according to wiki) a few mins after the attack.

Why look at "wiki" when we can see a copy of Lynne Cheney's notes?
The fact is there was confusion about what had happened at the Pentagon. There was in the media and you see the same thing here: 9:55 there's a call saying a plane has hit the Pentagon; 10:12 they think it's a helicopter; 11:23 they're questioning "was it a helicopter into Pentagon" and talking about Flight 77.

This matches up with what Cheney said in the interview that you quote. Here's more:

The third one we didn't know what had happened to it. It turned out it had hit the Pentagon. But the first reports on the Pentagon attack suggested a helicopter, and then later, a private jet, and it was only after we got ahold of some eyewitnesses that we knew it was an American Airlines flight.

They didn't immediately know what had happened at all, and received different information as the day progressed.

But again, we don't need insubstantial speculation: we already have the facts.

Mineta says he arrived as the White House was being evacuated, and described a scene that no-one else says happened until after 9:45.

Mineta says Lynne Cheney was present at the PEOC when he arrived. She said she arrived after the Pentagon was hit.

Mineta says Jane Garvey called the DoT before he left the office to report that Delta Airlines had said they'd lost track of some of their aircraft. Garvey has said this happened between the third and fourth crashes.

A 9/11 Commission email even gives us the log time for Mineta's arrival:

And there's plenty of more general indicators, all supporting the same thing: Mineta's 9:20 arrival time is a fiction. It did not happen.

 

[funk de fino]

"But Army Major Mike Fenzel, who is also in the PEOC, complains to him, “I can’t hear the crisis conference [that Clarke has been leading] because Mrs. Cheney keeps turning down the volume on you so she can hear CNN… and the vice president keeps hanging up the open line to you.” Clarke later describes that Lynne Cheney is, like her husband, “a right-wing ideologue,” and is offering her advice and opinions while in the PEOC."

a right wing idealogue...!! she took one out of joseph goebbels playbooks!!

Irrelevant. Mineta is wrong. She was only taken to the PEOC because flight 77 had hit the pentagon. At the time they did not know exactly what had happened but they knew the Pentagon had been attacked. Mineta says that she was there when he arrived. She did not arrive until after 77 crashed.

Therefore Mineta is wrong about his arrival. And you have just Godwinned the thread.

fail.

The third one we didn't know what had happened to it. It turned out it had hit the Pentagon. But the first reports on the Pentagon attack suggested a helicopter, and then later, a private jet, and it was only after we got ahold of some eyewitnesses that we knew it was an American Airlines flight.

And this was phoned in by a policeman and this is what was relayed to Cheney when Mineta was there. They got confirmation an AA jet had hit the Pentagon.

 

[funk de fino]

And someone has still not read the controllers statements that prove his claims wrong. I wonder why?

 

[Senenmut]

Once again you ignore the point. Mineta says Lynne Cheney was at the PEOC when he arrived. Lynne Cheney has said from the beginning that she arrived after the Pentagon was hit, has provided a very detailed account of that, and because this wasn't even an issue at the time, had no reason to lie.


Why look at "wiki" when we can see a copy of Lynne Cheney's notes?
The fact is there was confusion about what had happened at the Pentagon. There was in the media and you see the same thing here: 9:55 there's a call saying a plane has hit the Pentagon; 10:12 they think it's a helicopter; 11:23 they're questioning "was it a helicopter into Pentagon" and talking about Flight 77.

This matches up with what Cheney said in the interview that you quote. Here's more:



They didn't immediately know what had happened at all, and received different information as the day progressed.

But again, we don't need insubstantial speculation: we already have the facts.

Mineta says he arrived as the White House was being evacuated, and described a scene that no-one else says happened until after 9:45.

Mineta says Lynne Cheney was present at the PEOC when he arrived. She said she arrived after the Pentagon was hit.

Mineta says Jane Garvey called the DoT before he left the office to report that Delta Airlines had said they'd lost track of some of their aircraft. Garvey has said this happened between the third and fourth crashes.

A 9/11 Commission email even gives us the log time for Mineta's arrival:

[qimg]http://www.911myths.com/images/thumb/c/cd/Mineta_peoc.png/600px-Mineta_peoc.png[/qimg]

And there's plenty of more general indicators, all supporting the same thing: Mineta's 9:20 arrival time is a fiction. It did not happen.

describe for us how lynne cheney describes the evacuation in the interview you posted....

 

[Senenmut]

Irrelevant. Mineta is wrong. She was only taken to the PEOC because flight 77 had hit the pentagon. At the time they did not know exactly what had happened but they knew the Pentagon had been attacked. Mineta says that she was there when he arrived. She did not arrive until after 77 crashed.

Therefore Mineta is wrong about his arrival. And you have just Godwinned the thread.

fail.
And this was phoned in by a policeman and this is what was relayed to Cheney when Mineta was there. They got confirmation an AA jet had hit the Pentagon.

heres a good interview from mineta-
"Then they came in and said it was 10 miles out. Soon after that, I was talking to the deputy director of the FAA, and he told me they had lost the target off the screen. Soon after that, then, the vice president was informed that there was an explosion at the Pentagon. So I was trying to relate with the air traffic controllers where that plane went to see whether it was close to the Pentagon. The radar is very difficult to pinpoint it to a ground location.

But while I was talking to the FAA, someone broke into the conversation and said, 'Mr. Secretary, we have just had confirmation from the Arlington County Police Department that they saw a commercial airliner-an American airline-go into the Pentagon.

have ya looked through wikileaks yet. just try doing a control F for find and type in "pentagon". tell me about the times you find!!

so according to mrs cheney, she already know the pentagon had been attacked. i guess she forgot to tell her hubby!! because of his quote here:
cheney: "But when I arrived there within a short order, we had word the Pentagon's been hit."

i guess GOFER06 would not of made a good confirmation? multiple lines of confirmation would have been available very quickly....NOT 40 mins after flight 93 crashed.