Hitting A Woman?

[chillzero]

Again, you never came into a situation in which you [as a pacifist] used violence, right?

Again, yes, yes I did, and I have outlined two of those occasions in this very thread.

Your point?
Still no defence of your claims that it is ok to hit a pregnant woman, when she's preparing for an abortion? Or to resort to violence when there's no physical threat to you but you have been wronged in a relationship?

 

[Oliver]

Again, yes, yes I did, and I have outlined two of those occasions in this very thread.

Your point?
Still no defence of your claims that it is ok to hit a pregnant woman, when she's preparing for an abortion? Or to resort to violence when there's no physical threat to you but you have been wronged in a relationship?

While I was talking about a girlfriend who did abort your and her child already, you never were in a situation in which you acted violently despite your hate of violence, right?

 

[Roboramma]

Again, you never came into a situation in which you [as a pacifist] used violence, right?

I believe that's her point. She's been in the type of situation in which you think it's suitable to use violence, and she didn't use violence. Not only that, but it's clear that using violence would have been wrong.

 

[Oliver]

I believe that's her point. She's been in the type of situation in which you think it's suitable to use violence, and she didn't use violence. Not only that, but it's clear that using violence would have been wrong.

She might believe that her and my situations are comparable, but I suspect that the only reason why she did not use violence was her conscience. I, on the other hand, and while hating violence, was in a situation in which my conscience was pretty much absent - I didn't care if she would hit back, I did not care if I would have wounded her in any way, I didn't care if I go to prison - all of that did not matter while I was seeing red.

So she did not face a situation in which she forgot about all her good and non-violent intentions - while I did face such a situation - and even if you might not appreciate the fact that all I did was slapping her, it could have been much worse concerning how I really felt within.

But again: You have to make such an experience to understand what I'm talking about.

 

[Roboramma]

But again: You have to make such an experience to understand what I'm talking about.

Have you considered the possibility that others have had similar experiences, and yet somehow still managed to avoid becoming violent?

I mean, honestly, your description of your experience, while unpleasant, is not anything that in any way merits becoming violent. Nor is it all that exceptional.

 

[chillzero]

While I was talking about a girlfriend who did abort your and her child already, you never were in a situation in which you acted violently despite your hate of violence, right?

For the third time, Oliver, yes. Read this slowly: yes I have been in a situation more than once where I have resorted to violence. Clear? Maybe you should go back and actually read my posts instead of spouting off uninformed.
I apologise for the misunderstanding about the fact the abortion had already occurred .. language differences, I guess. It doesn't change my opinion on the matter.

She might believe that her and my situations are comparable,

...despite the fact I have clearly stated that I do not find them comparable, which was my whole point in telling you not to compare your claimed hatred of violence to mine.

but I suspect that the only reason why she did not use violence was her conscience.

....except I have used violence. And I'm not happy about it. And it did not actually improve my situation. And it took a hell of a lot more provocation than being wronged in a relationship ... which I also was. You said you slapped a girl because she lied to you. I refer you again to my ex-husband's several justifications for beating me.

I, on the other hand, and while hating violence, was in a situation in which my conscience was pretty much absent - I didn't care if she would hit back, I did not care if I would have wounded her in any way, I didn't care if I go to prison - all of that did not matter while I was seeing red.

Does any of that justify actually doing it? Do you feel you were in the right?

So she did not face a situation in which she forgot about all her good and non-violent intentions - while I did face such a situation - and even if you might not appreciate the fact that all I did was slapping her, it could have been much worse concerning how I really felt within.

Yes, I did. And if you want a more ... comparable ... situation, I was kicked in the stomach when we were trying to have a baby and I was about 10-14 days late with my period. I started bleeding about 3 hours later. Are you happy now that I know what it feels like to have actual emotional experience of what it is like to lose the possibility of a baby being born? Are you satisfied that I can now actually hold a legitimate opinion on the premise that some situations can make pacificists angry? While I sympathise entirely with your loss, I still don't feel it is appropriate or justified to resort to violence in such a situation - you weren't being physically threatened or abused by her, right? My husband claimed regularly that I pushed him to it - that I deserved it - that I made him so angry that he lost control of his temper .... and I struggle to see much difference here. You have the floor here to persuade me otherwise, rather than continuing to dismiss my questions.

In my opinion, physical abuse is a loss of self control when no physical mitigating threat exists.

But again: You have to make such an experience to understand what I'm talking about.

You need to read properly.
You still need to identify if these scenarios you presented are ones where you actually and honestly feel any person would be justified in acting violently and say why you think so. I still don't see any defence here, other than your very blatent (and actually irrelevant) mistake that I don't understand what it is like to be in similar situations.

 

[Oliver]

For the third time, Oliver, yes. Read this slowly: yes I have been in a situation more than once where I have resorted to violence. Clear? Maybe you should go back and actually read my posts instead of spouting off uninformed.
I apologise for the misunderstanding about the fact the abortion had already occurred .. language differences, I guess. It doesn't change my opinion on the matter.

Yes, you have been in situations in which you resorted to violence. But I ask you again: have you been in a situation in which you did NOT resort violence? ... No.

Also, despite the language gap concerning the abortion after the fact, you don't know how a father really feels about such a fact, do you - as a women?

...despite the fact I have clearly stated that I do not find them comparable, which was my whole point in telling you not to compare your claimed hatred of violence to mine.

....except I have used violence. And I'm not happy about it. And it did not actually improve my situation. And it took a hell of a lot more provocation than being wronged in a relationship ... which I also was. You said you slapped a girl because she lied to you. I refer you again to my ex-husband's several justifications for beating me.

There is no justification for violence, that's what I'm saying all the time. But there are situations in which that does not matter and you will use violence nonetheless because you simply feel that way, even if you're against violence. And while your violence did not improve your situation, more violence might have improved my partners behavior, I honestly don't know since I restricted myself in some way despite my real emotions.

Does any of that justify actually doing it? Do you feel you were in the right?

No. I do not feel that I was right. But I feel that I failed to prevent that she treated the next man the same cruel way. Now to her defense, she had a hard childhood and might not know about love, but that would be no rational apology for what she did to me.

Yes, I did. And if you want a more ... comparable ... situation, I was kicked in the stomach when we were trying to have a baby and I was about 10-14 days late with my period. I started bleeding about 3 hours later. Are you happy now that I know what it feels like to have actual emotional experience of what it is like to lose the possibility of a baby being born? Are you satisfied that I can now actually hold a legitimate opinion on the premise that some situations can make pacificists angry? While I sympathise entirely with your loss, I still don't feel it is appropriate or justified to resort to violence in such a situation - you weren't being physically threatened or abused by her, right? My husband claimed regularly that I pushed him to it - that I deserved it - that I made him so angry that he lost control of his temper .... and I struggle to see much difference here. You have the floor here to persuade me otherwise, rather than continuing to dismiss my questions.

I never argued that there is a situation in which violence is justified in case of a pregnant women. Why did your Friend lost his temper in that kind of situation - and why don't you think that opposing violence would be the wrong thing to stop him in that kind of situation? To me it sounds as if violence would have been the only thing that could have stopped him, am I wrong?

In my opinion, physical abuse is a loss of self control when no physical mitigating threat exists.

Well, then you might at least to a point understand how it feels like to actually believe in non-violence and breaking that believe afterwards.

You need to read properly.
You still need to identify if these scenarios you presented are ones where you actually and honestly feel any person would be justified in acting violently and say why you think so. I still don't see any defence here, other than your very blatent (and actually irrelevant) mistake that I don't understand what it is like to be in similar situations.

My point is that there are situations in which there is no other way to stop violence other than using violence yourself. You might disagree, but then you didn't experience a situation in which violence was the only available solution at the time. Am I right?

 

[Oliver]

Have you considered the possibility that others have had similar experiences, and yet somehow still managed to avoid becoming violent?

I mean, honestly, your description of your experience, while unpleasant, is not anything that in any way merits becoming violent. Nor is it all that exceptional.

Personally I had dozens of incidents in which I did not act violent despite the fact that others acted violent up to the point, that I was outraged enough to turn violent myself.

I'm still a non-violent person and consider myself to be a pacifist. However, I was in a situation in which that did not matter anymore - and I was shocked to learn that I was capable to face a situation in which my believes didn't match the reality of the situation anymore . However, those people who really know about their own violent personality despite their otherwise friendly and non-violent nature are able to discuss this issue in a factual way while people who never experienced their own "dark side" cannot explain what it feels like or is like to oppose their own good and non-violent nature.

 

[Morrigan]

It was the utter stupidity of this post I was responding to.

It wasn't stupid. You just completely misinterpreted what she was saying. Not once did it cross my mind that she was referring to practitioners of martial arts, arm-wrestling contests or other sports. She was responding to a bunch of inane comments made by Skeptic about hitting someone to defend one's manhood after receiving a drink to the face, so maybe you just missed the contest, but, yeah... don't blame her for so thoroughly misunderstanding her post.

... there are situations even someone hating violence [or maybe because of that hate of violence] could turn into someone using violence.
...
Or you see people killing little innocent seals by beating them to death. Watching that makes me so angry that I would shoot those people immediately if I was there.

The other examples were inane enough, but this one is just puzzling. Do you apply that kind of thinking to all game hunters, or just those who kill animals you find cute-looking? You'd shoot a bunch of men who are just trying to make a living by hunting an abundant species (and killing the animals in an actually humane way, too - one single blow to the head is enough, but a bullet into a deer is usually not enough and the animal suffers more... but I guess you don't "see red" at deer hunters, hmmm?), because the animal looks cute?

That says a lot more about you than it does about seasonal hunters in Newfoundland.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

Every time I see this thread I think of this webcomic.

Oliver, it's easy to say "if you've never had the experience, you can't judge", but it's not true. Also you can't decide who has and who has not experienced anything.

 

[Oliver]

It wasn't stupid. You just completely misinterpreted what she was saying. Not once did it cross my mind that she was referring to practitioners of martial arts, arm-wrestling contests or other sports. She was responding to a bunch of inane comments made by Skeptic about hitting someone to defend one's manhood after receiving a drink to the face, so maybe you just missed the contest, but, yeah... don't blame her for so thoroughly misunderstanding her post.

The other examples were inane enough, but this one is just puzzling. Do you apply that kind of thinking to all game hunters, or just those who kill animals you find cute-looking? You'd shoot a bunch of men who are just trying to make a living by hunting an abundant species (and killing the animals in an actually humane way, too - one single blow to the head is enough, but a bullet into a deer is usually not enough and the animal suffers more... but I guess you don't "see red" at deer hunters, hmmm?), because the animal looks cute?

That says a lot more about you than it does about seasonal hunters in Newfoundland.

I may not be able to feel what Chillzero felt back then, but I think that her Boyfriend was wrong all the time and that she would have been able to stop his violence if she would have been physically stronger then him, yes.

Concerning your other question concerning hunters: No, to me it's human nature to kill animals for our survival. But there are limits to me: If you kill an animal in a humane was such as using anesthesia or a shot in it's brain that does kill the animal instantly, I can live with such a solution, even if some may consider this to be violence in any way.

However, seeing people slaughtering baby seals in a long and nasty violent was such as beating them to death isn't an apology for violence at all - and seeing that makes my blood boil, to put it mildly. Do you disagree?

Every time I see this thread I think of this webcomic.

Oliver, it's easy to say "if you've never had the experience, you can't judge", but it's not true. Also you can't decide who has and who has not experienced anything.

Did you experience a "dark side" of yourself?
I used to believe that I was a non-violent person - yet I did experience a situation that proved that my believe was wrong.

So did you experience a situation that proved you wrong, yes or no?

 

[chillzero]

Yes, you have been in situations in which you resorted to violence. But I ask you again: have you been in a situation in which you did NOT resort violence? ... No.

*sigh*
You are not asking this again because it is different than what you asked before. And yes, I have been in many situations when I did NOT resort to violence.... including when I was kicked in what I believed to be my pregnant stomach.

Also, despite the language gap concerning the abortion after the fact, you don't know how a father really feels about such a fact, do you - as a women?

uh... no ... obviously. You have any idea how it feels to believe you are pregnant and get kicked in the stomach? Didn't think so. You have any idea what it feels like to be in the situation of getting an abortion? Didn't think so. Does that make your opinion invalid? No. So don't dismiss my opinion on situations that you put up for discussion on a discussion board either.

There is no justification for violence, that's what I'm saying all the time. But there are situations in which that does not matter and you will use violence nonetheless because you simply feel that way, even if you're against violence. And while your violence did not improve your situation, more violence might have improved my partners behavior, I honestly don't know since I restricted myself in some way despite my real emotions.

No. I do not feel that I was right. But I feel that I failed to prevent that she treated the next man the same cruel way. Now to her defense, she had a hard childhood and might not know about love, but that would be no rational apology for what she did to me.

So ... you don't justify violence ... while then justifying it in your next sentence, by basically claiming that circumstances permit. You think violence may have "improved" your partner's behaviour? You really think you should have taught her a lesson she'd never forget? If you ever go to Ireland I'll introduce you to my ex.

I never argued that there is a situation in which violence is justified in case of a pregnant women. Why did your Friend lost his temper in that kind of situation - and why don't you think that opposing violence would be the wrong thing to stop him in that kind of situation? To me it sounds as if violence would have been the only thing that could have stopped him, am I wrong?

Good grief Oliver. Yes, you are wrong. Very wrong. I have told you several times to go back and read what I wrote. I did try to use violence to make him stop, and it didn't work. And before you make another mistake - I did have the physical strength to stop him ... I'm a very capable fighter. I chose to restrict my violence to try and help myself escape rather than trying to hurt him, even in a situaiton of self defense. I also did not retaliate with violence after the fact - not even after having my life threatened with a knife, or while harbouring the firm belief that he made me miscarry a baby.

Oh - and not my 'Friend' .. my husband ... the man I loved enough to tie myself to legally, and have him adopt my daughter, and make plans for the future with. Not some 'Friend' - but the man who was supposed to love, defend, honour and support me through everything and anything that life brought me.

Well, then you might at least to a point understand how it feels like to actually believe in non-violence and breaking that believe afterwards.

"to a point" ???
Good grief.
I absolutely and deeply understand what it is like to forego pacifist beliefs and resort to violence. I fully understand how hard that is to live with all these years later. I do not sit here and claim 'he drove me to it' or 'he deserved it'. I allowed myself to act in a violent fashion, for various reasons, and I will never, ever take the same cowardly way out as my ex does by sliding blame for my actions to someone else, no matter how provocative their actions.

My point is that there are situations in which there is no other way to stop violence other than using violence yourself. You might disagree, but then you didn't experience a situation in which violence was the only available solution at the time. Am I right?

No. You are still wrong.
I did experience situations where violence seemed the only available solution at he time, and I chose to fight.

 

[chillzero]

I may not be able to feel what Chillzero felt back then, but I think that her Boyfriend was wrong all the time and that she would have been able to stop his violence if she would have been physically stronger then him, yes.

I was strong enough to defend myself, without resorting to violence and yet preventing further damage to myself. Otherwise I would be dead now.

 

[Oliver]

I was strong enough to defend myself, without resorting to violence and yet preventing further damage to myself. Otherwise I would be dead now.

So violence did have a purpose after all?

 

[chillzero]

So violence did have a purpose after all?

um.... what part of

I was strong enough to defend myself, without resorting to violence and yet preventing further damage to myself. Otherwise I would be dead now.

are you struggling to understand?

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

Did you experience a "dark side" of yourself?

Violence is always my first instinct.

 

[Oliver]

um.... what part of

are you struggling to understand?

Well, you used violence to protect yourself after all, so violence did have a purpose despite your non-violent believes - and according to your own account, right?

 

[chillzero]

Well, you used violence to protect yourself after all, so violence did have a purpose despite your non-violent believes - and according to your own account, right?

Go and read what I have written Oliver ... just once ... please go and read it. You are starting to make a real fool of yourself.

No - I admitted that I used violence to 'protect' myself, and it did not make any difference to my situation - it did not serve any purpose. It did not even buy me the much needed time I was trying to gain to escape.

I did not use violence on plenty of other occasions, when I used my strength to protect myself without resorting to violence in return. I know - through experience - that I can hold someone at arm/leg's length until he tires of trying to strangle me, for example.

I know I can fight formidably. I know I can take down someone over a foot taller and four stone heavier than I am, and my ex was nowhere near that big. I know I am prepared to fight hard to protect myself or my loved ones in extreme circumstances. I choose not to use violence whenever possible, and that would include occasions similar to those you outlined earlier. I believe my statement to this effect this is entirely valid due to the fact I have faced comparable circumstances (I'm not going to say worse because it's not a competition), and chosen the path of non-violence.

So, don't sit there and claim that my situation would have been different had I been strong enough to return the violence - I was. Don't sit there and claim that I don't understand what it is like to use violence and yet call myself a pacifist - I do. Don't sit there and claim that using violence was the right thing to do when I needed to defend myself - it wasn't.

You can sit there and claim all you like that you should have taught your ex a lesson that would ensure she didn't treat anyone else poorly in the future. I contend you are trying to justify your violence in a manner similar to how my ex claimed he was within his rights to beat me. I don't consider your claim to pacifism to be holding up too well at this point.

 

[Belz...]

Baleeted.

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

Evidence that women like being hit (And more than once)