MLM

[gtc]

Shares have no inherent value. If I buy a book, then read it, the book has lost value but it doesn't mean I "lost money". I got what I paid for.

Again you show you don't understand how business works. Inherent value is a meaningless concept.

As I have said, the problem with the tools scam is that people who purchase the tools don't get what they paid for. The tools don't really help ordinary people to make money out of Amway.

When people start in Amway they are fooled into forking out huge sums of money for the tools. This means they start out with a big loss. At best it will take most IBOs years to claw back the money they have lost but they are compounding their losses by buying extra tools in the meantime.

People are left with the unenviable task of choosing whether to keep going in the hope of one day making some actual money or cutting their losses now.

No one wants to admit that they have been a sucker. So people stay in for months after they ought to have bailed out. The people at the top of the pyramid don't care because another sucker will be along soon.

 

[icerat]

Plenty of information there about the '100% optional but 100% necessary' tool scam.

None of that proved anyone was "forced" to do anything. You also ignore the inconvenient fact that **the vast majority of people who become Amway IBOs do not buy these tools**

Prove it.

Again? Why? Have you recently improved your reading comprehension? Read
Myth: It's a pyramid if most products are bought by ibos? and note in particular the FTC quotes given.

Prove it.

Gee, let me see, wanna see my customer receipt book? How about the fact that in the UK, in order to become a certified retail consultant you need to have 5 confirmed external retail customers - and there's been well over 16,000 of them registered since this system was put in place. Or how about the $34 million dollars worth of sales order by customers directly on the Quixtar website in North America, separate to any ordered by customers through IBOs, as revealed in TEAM vs Quixtar.

If regulator's haven't been interested in examining the tool scam then your first claim has to be bogus.

Huh? What are you babbling about? I've made no claims at all regarding regulators and tools sales. YOU have claimed they're interested. How about YOU provide some evidence for YOUR claim?

 

[icerat]

Again you show you don't understand how business works. Inherent value is a meaningless concept.

rubbish.

But if you're talking about supply and demand, well guess what - there's supply and demand. Newton Trino is the one arguing that it doesn't count.

As I have said, the problem with the tools scam is that people who purchase the tools don't get what they paid for. The tools don't really help ordinary people to make money out of Amway.

Got any evidence to support that claim? Or just lousy logic?

When people start in Amway they are fooled into forking out huge sums of money for the tools.

Gee, now I feel rejected. I've "started in Amway" five times now if you count different countries and I've never once started by "forking out huge sums of money for tools", whether fooled or otherwised.

Are some "fooled" into such things? Probably - but you're claiming everyone is. Put up some evidence.

This means they start out with a big loss. At best it will take most IBOs years to claw back the money they have lost but they are compounding their losses by buying extra tools in the meantime.

What utter codswallop. Our base "starting investment" in "tools" is a whopping $30 a month and a $20 seminar ticket. Sell a Double X and you cover that. Damn this is an expensive business!

<snip the rest of the mindless babble>

 

[gtc]

You also ignore the inconvenient fact that **the vast majority of people who become Amway IBOs do not buy these tools**

You are always throwing in new claims like this one and accusing us of ignoring them. Do you have any proof of that claim?

Again? Why? Have you recently improved your reading comprehension? Read
Myth: It's a pyramid if most products are bought by ibos? and note in particular the FTC quotes given.

You are not being entirely honest here. Retail sales are one of the things that they most certainly do look at:

There are two tell-tale signs that a product is simply being used to disguise a pyramid scheme: inventory loading and a lack of retail sales. Inventory loading occurs when a company's incentive program forces recruits to buy more products than they could ever sell, often at inflated prices. If this occurs throughout the company's distribution system, the people at the top of the pyramid reap substantial profits, even though little or no product moves to market. The people at the bottom make excessive payments for inventory that simply accumulates in their basements. A lack of retail sales is also a red flag that a pyramid exists. Many pyramid schemes will claim that their product is selling like hot cakes. However, on closer examination, the sales occur only between people inside the pyramid structure or to new recruits joining the structure, not to consumers out in the general public.

Gee, let me see, wanna see my customer receipt book?

If you are only hitting the 3% bonus level; then your customer receipt book wouldn't be very interesting.

How about the fact that in the UK, in order to become a certified retail consultant you need to have 5 confirmed external retail customers - and there's been well over 16,000 of them registered since this system was put in place. Or how about the $34 million dollars worth of sales order by customers directly on the Quixtar website in North America, separate to any ordered by customers through IBOs, as revealed in TEAM vs Quixtar.

We are talking about the tools, not the rest of the Amway business.

Are you claiming that the tools get sold to people who aren't part of Amway?

Huh? What are you babbling about? I've made no claims at all regarding regulators and tools sales. YOU have claimed they're interested. How about YOU provide some evidence for YOUR claim?

No. You claimed that the FTC cleared the tools scam. Then you claimed that no regulator was ever interested in it. The two statements can't be reconciled.

 

[gtc]

rubbish.

What is the inherent value in one of the tapes?

But if you're talking about supply and demand, well guess what - there's supply and demand. Newton Trino is the one arguing that it doesn't count.

No one is arguing that it doesn't count. We are saying that, if you want to claim that something is ethical, you have to do more than to point out that there is supply and demand for that product. There is supply and demand for narcotics but that doesn't mean that it is ethical. There is supply and demand for selling alcohol to alcoholics, that doesn't make it ethical to sell them that.

Got any evidence to support that claim? Or just lousy logic?

Yes. The fact that very few people make a profit from Amway, even before you factor in the cost of the tools.

Gee, now I feel rejected. I've "started in Amway" five times now if you count different countries and I've never once started by "forking out huge sums of money for tools", whether fooled or otherwised.

I am not convinced that you are entirely clear about how much money you have spent on tools, seminars etc during your time in Amway. However, we know you are an Amway insider, your experience is not likely to be the same as that of ordinary people who get involved with Amway.

Are some "fooled" into such things? Probably - but you're claiming everyone is. Put up some evidence.

No one is suggesting that everyone fails to make money out of Amway. Some people are obviously at the top of the pyramid and making money out of the tools scam.

What utter codswallop. Our base "starting investment" in "tools" is a whopping $30 a month and a $20 seminar ticket. Sell a Double X and you cover that. Damn this is an expensive business!

So? You know as well as I do that ordinary Amway members are encouraged to fork out for way more than that on tools and you know as well as I do that the statistics show that very few people are earning margins of that much a month even before their other expenses are accounted for.

 

[icerat]

You are always throwing in new claims like this one and accusing us of ignoring them. Do you have any proof of that claim?

Yes, reality. Statistics are kept on this in our organisation, which is one of the largest in the world. I'm aware other organisations keep similar statistics. Fewer than half ever spend any money on anything at all after registering, of those who renew, typically no more than 20% are spending money "on the system". A new platinum group, which will have some 200 people in it will have only 15 or so IBOships seriously pursuing the business with expenses of any significance.

You are not being entirely honest here. Retail sales are one of the things that they most certainly do look

I just quoted the FTC - are you accusing the FTC of being dishonest? Clearly you didn't bother reading the article and links anyway, or you failed basic logic. As the FTC clearly stated (not me), the level of internal consumption does NOT determine whether something is an illegal pyramid. What it does is indicate that perhaps you don't have a legitimate product with legitimate demand and other things need to be looked at, such as the nature of the product, pricing etc etc. For example I'm aware of a class action being launched today against efusjon. They have few, if any, outside sales, but there major issue is that if you don't maintain your personal volume, then you lose your "position" - ie there's enormous incentive to purchase their products whether you want them or not.

If you are only hitting the 3% bonus level; then your customer receipt book wouldn't be very interesting.

Who says I'm only hitting the 3% level? Do you believe everything you read on the net?

We are talking about the tools, not the rest of the Amway business.

Are you claiming that the tools get sold to people who aren't part of Amway?

Ok, we were getting mixed up between the two separate businesses. The question with regard the tool system and whether there is "external customers" is another one, and very clear. In general only platinums and above are "participants in the scheme" (ie tool rebates). Every other IBO is an external customer. The vast majority of tools are sold to external customers.

No. You claimed that the FTC cleared the tools scam. Then you claimed that no regulator was ever interested in it. The two statements can't be reconciled.

I made no such claim. You claimed regulators were looking at the tools systems, I said I've never heard of that and asked for more info.

Why did you make the claim?

 

[icerat]

What is the inherent value in one of the tapes?

information

No one is arguing that it doesn't count. We are saying that, if you want to claim that something is ethical, you have to do more than to point out that there is supply and demand for that product. There is supply and demand for narcotics but that doesn't mean that it is ethical. There is supply and demand for selling alcohol to alcoholics, that doesn't make it ethical to sell them that.

What is unethical about selling books, seminars, and recordings of seminars?

Yes. The fact that very few people make a profit from Amway, even before you factor in the cost of the tools.

Right, so the answer is "lousy logic". Few people purchase the tools. Even fewer people apply what is taught on the tools.

your experience is not likely to be the same as that of ordinary people who get involved with Amway.

You're entirely correct. Unlike most people who get involved, I went to seminars and bought some materials. Unlike most people who buy this stuff, I applied what I was taught. Like most people who do this, I made money.

If you want to claim "the system" isn't actually very good at motivating people to do what is taught necessary to succeed, then we're in 100% agreement. The same problem of program compliance exists in many fields of endeavour. My last season in elite sport pretty much ended because I stopped regularly turning up to training and worrying about my diet etc etc. That doesn't mean the training and diet stuff didn't work, or it was unethical to promote it to the athletes - it just means I didn't do it. It doesn't mean all my various club, state, and national membership fees were unethical, it just means I didn't make use of them. It doesn't mean the money I spent up to that point on travelling to competitions etc etc was unethical, it just means I decided it wasn't something I wanted to keep doing.

No one is suggesting that everyone fails to make money out of Amway. Some people are obviously at the top of the pyramid and making money out of the tools scam.

Again, where is the "scam" in selling people something they want?

So? You know as well as I do that ordinary Amway members are encouraged to fork out for way more than that on tools and you know as well as I do that the statistics show that very few people are earning margins of that much a month even before their other expenses are accounted for.

And here comes the dishonesty. You want to consider the expenses of the very few people who are spending money on tools, and you want to match it with the income of everyone, including the majority who are not spending money on tools.

That's outright dishonest.

As for "what ordinary Amway members are encourage to fork out", I'm telling you exactly what we encourage people to fork out. You made this claim about starting costs, I'm telling you it's not how we operate.

Frankly I'm getting pretty sick of people like you claiming you know more about what I do than I do! I've just been on the phone with a downline as they register a new IBO - the new IBO was given a range of recommended startups which went from buying no tools at all to spending about $400 (which included two major conference tickets seminar). They've elected to spend $20 on a seminar ticket. They chose. I just personally sponsored another IBO in the US. They were given a similar range of startup alternatives. They've elected to spend nothing on tools, something we agree on since they're focused on offering Nutrilite to their current customer base, not on developing a network. The last two people we personally sponsored, one has spent nothing on tools, the other bought one seminar ticket, attended and enjoyed it. They then spent approximately 200x the cost of that ticket attending a seminar from a completely different company dealing with other business opportunities and they have decided to pursue that for now instead and simply remain a member/customer since they like the products and may refer some people.

That's reality, that's what I'm doing, on the ground, right now. Stop with this offensive BS claims that YOU know better than I do what I'm doing. You haven't got a clue. You've got some fantasy vision you're emotionally invested in for some reason, and you don't give a damn whether it's real or not, you're going to defend it anyway to protect your ego.

Grow up and accept that you don't know everything. Same goes for you Newton Trino.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Grow up and accept that you don't know everything. Same goes for you Newton Trino.

I'll give up when you stop lying. Deal?

 

[icerat]

I'll give up when you stop lying. Deal?

Apparently not, since then you would have grown up long ago. I have not lied once on this thread.

 

[gtc]

Notice the cult like logic at work.

If you don't succeed in Amway it has to be because you didn't follow the plan properly. How do we know they didn't follow the plan properly? Because they didn't succeed.

The possibility that Amway isn't the path to success, open to all, that it is claimed to be is never questioned.

No matter whether they attended every seminar they were told to attend, no matter how many tools they purchased, no matter whether they did everything else they were told to do. The problem has to lie with them, not Amway.

And anyone who questions these assumptions is insane.

Who says I'm only hitting the 3% level? Do you believe everything you read on the net?

Great. Then I take you up on your offer to post your customer receipt book.

 

[gtc]

information

There is no inherent value in information.

And here comes the dishonesty. You want to consider the expenses of the very few people who are spending money on tools, and you want to match it with the income of everyone, including the majority who are not spending money on tools.

That's outright dishonest.

No it is not. We have information about the distribution of income not just the averages. It is painfully obvious that very few people would earn enough profit from Amway to match the cost of the tools. Given the size of the tools business, it is clear that it wipes out much if not all of the profit of most IBOs.

As for "what ordinary Amway members are encourage to fork out", I'm telling you exactly what we encourage people to fork out. You made this claim about starting costs, I'm telling you it's not how we operate.

You have said yourself that you represent only part of the Amway business. As you well know, there is no real way to control what new starters in Amway are told to do.

 

[icerat]

Notice the cult like logic at work.

You mean your habit of just making stuff up to support your claims? Such as ...

If you don't succeed in Amway it has to be because you didn't follow the plan properly. How do we know they didn't follow the plan properly? Because they didn't succeed.

I used no such logic. I told you, the data comes from surveys

The possibility that Amway isn't the path to success, open to all, that it is claimed to be is never questioned.

Amway is not for everyone, never claimed it was. Again you just make stuff up.

Great. Then I take you up on your offer to post your customer receipt book.

There is no inherent value in information.

Depends on your definitions, this is an argument over semantics that's completely off topic, I'm not going to waste time on it.

No it is not. We have information about the distribution of income not just the averages.

Really? Care to share?

It is painfully obvious that very few people would earn enough profit from Amway to match the cost of the tools. Given the size of the tools business, it is clear that it wipes out much if not all of the profit of most IBOs.

I'm curious as to the mechanism for this, given most IBOs don't buy tools.

You have said yourself that you represent only part of the Amway business. As you well know, there is no real way to control what new starters in Amway are told to do.

No there is it. My issue is your blanket claims about all Amway distributors, including myself. There's plenty of idiots doing Amway doing the wrong thing, I've never disputed that. You however dispute that there's people not doing the wrong thing.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Notice the cult like logic at work.

If you don't succeed in Amway it has to be because you didn't follow the plan properly. How do we know they didn't follow the plan properly? Because they didn't succeed.

The possibility that Amway isn't the path to success, open to all, that it is claimed to be is never questioned.

No matter whether they attended every seminar they were told to attend, no matter how many tools they purchased, no matter whether they did everything else they were told to do. The problem has to lie with them, not Amway.

And anyone who questions these assumptions is insane.

You have it exactly right. I also want to point out that this is the exact same attitude and almost the exact same wording you will get out of the groups that Icerat claims have no influence on his business. Same stuff, different day.

Also look at his replies (even to the post I'm replying too). There is absolutely no way that amway or it's affiliates could ever be wrong. Welcome to the land of the business cult people. Spin spin spin and then spin some more before laughing all the way to the bank. Well at least the upline are laughing (but not with Icerat, at him).

 

[icerat]

truly unbelievable. Do you guys live in any kind of real world? Do you read what I write at all? Are you consciously and dishonestly ignoring what I write or do you actually not even see it??

I've been critical of Amway and it's affiliates often. It's on this thread, it's on my blog. Yet you simply pretend something so easily confirmable doesn't even exist.

Yet you accuse me of being part of some brainwashed cult?

Simply amazing.

 

[NewtonTrino]

truly unbelievable. Do you guys live in any kind of real world? Do you read what I write at all? Are you consciously and dishonestly ignoring what I write or do you actually not even see it??

I've been critical of Amway and it's affiliates often. It's on this thread, it's on my blog. Yet you simply pretend something so easily confirmable doesn't even exist.

Yet you accuse me of being part of some brainwashed cult?

Simply amazing.

Yes we read what you write. You are delusional if you think that you have performed any kind of legit criticism. In fact you use this technique to try and give yourself some sort of legitimacy. I'm sorry but calling Dexter Yager a scammer and then comparing how great your upline is (who use EXACTLY the same techniques) is mad!

Everyone else in amway is doing it wrong except your precious Network21 group who can do no wrong. Do you realize how crazy this sounds?

 

[gtc]

Is Amway still selling the magnabloc magnetic therapy items? They seem to have been renamed Quadrabloc.

 

[icerat]

Everyone else in amway is doing it wrong except your precious Network21 group who can do no wrong. Do you realize how crazy this sounds?

QED - I never said that either.

Is Amway still selling the magnabloc magnetic therapy items? They seem to have been renamed Quadrabloc.

No. Interesting product that. I never quite decided what to make of it. It seems to have some pretty solid theoretical and clinical science behind it (it was developed at Vanderbilt University) but the research seems to have been all but ignored in the medical community, and the lead scientist (Robert Holcomb) seems to be pretty eccentric to say the least

I suggest you do what the ratbag guy doesn't bother to do and actually read the research. Quite interesting, if incomplete.

 

[gtc]

I suggest you do what the ratbag guy doesn't bother to do and actually read the research. Quite interesting, if incomplete.

You are wrong. He links to the BMJ, formerly the British Medical Journal:

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. If there is any healing effect of magnets, it is apparently small since published research, both theoretical and experimental, is weighted heavily against any therapeutic benefit. Patients should be advised that magnet therapy has no proved benefits. If they insist on using a magnetic device they could be advised to buy the cheapest—this will at least alleviate the pain in their wallet.

 

[icerat]

He didn't read the Vanderbilt research about the actual magnabloc technology, which is different to the standard "magnetic therapy" products. Rather than magnetic strength per se, the Vanderbilt research indicates that it's the magnetic gradient that matters and in the right place it appears to block ion channels. The BMJ article didn't even consider that.

As I said, it's interesting but incomplete. The problem I have with the magnabloc product is that if their theories and research is correct, they need very very careful placement to have an effect. I saw one blinded study using magnabloc, that did not do this, and not surprisingly, showed no effect. The point being that a commercial product is unlikely to product effects outside placebo even if it works - since more often than not normal users will be unlikely to place them precisely enough.

 

[BPScooter]

so *when* a product/effect/theorem *does* work, and such, where does it matter whether or not it's "commercial?" I can see it now---Newton's© Gravit-apple-- Drop it! It falls!

Basic point from me is that fundamental scientific breakthrough-type stuff tends to gather itself around the investigators/authors in that field.