MLM

[Almo]

There is also this viral marketing (or whatever you call it) where MLMers will post things on the web with scam in the title and proceed to tell people how its not a scam... There is a lot of effort made to hide bad publicity but saturating the internet with the Pro-MLM rhetoric.

I find this quite disturbing as well. Google "Amway scam" then google "Pepsi scam". The character of the returned results are entirely different.

 

[icerat]

I've noticed that a lot of Pro-MLMers come across as salesman. I mean, Icerat, you are trying to sell us onto Amway right here on this thread.

All I'm doing is responding to false claims with factual information. If that's "selling" then I plead guilty.

Some of your post sound like a commercial. It sounds like you are trying to say that the products Amway sells are better than what you can get in the stores. As if Wal-Mart only sells Sand Paper Quality Toilet Paper™.

This isn't even true - with regards toilet paper I explictly named similar brands from other stores, and even linked to them.

And a lot of those health products that Melaleuca sells are unneeded woo. I think its funny how most of their vitamins have the disclaimer "This product has not been evaluated by the FDA and should not be used to treat, cure or diagnose any illness" yet in the same advertisement they are claiming just that.

In which case they are breaking the law, disclaimer or not. False advertising or otherwise breaking laws is a separate discussion.

And as for not recruiting competition (which you claim by using the PepsiCo analogy) MLMers make extra income by recruiting additional members

No they don't. If they do it's a pyramid. They make money by recruiting additional members in order to increase sales volume and take a cut in margin to do so.

and those new members in turn have to compete for recruiting other members. That turns into a whole mess of competition.

Yes, "cross-line" IBOs are in competition with each other for developing wholesale and retail sales.. Here the potential for market saturation does exist - exactly like in any other business!

And just like any other business, if a company somehow approaches a mythical saturation point, they change strategies or die. I suspect the market for rotary telephones, or indeed rotary telephone salespeople, is pretty close to saturated - the companies making and marketing such products either changed or died.

There is also this viral marketing (or whatever you call it) where MLMers will post things on the web with scam in the title and proceed to tell people how its not a scam ...

That stuff drives me nuts. In my opinion they virtually all ARE scammer. When you follow through with them they're mostly not selling any worthwile product, but simply selling a marketing system where you make money getting others to use the marketing system or actually only make money selling the marketing system etc etc etc. It's a classic pyramid scam.

There is a lot of effort made to hide bad publicity but saturating the internet with the Pro-MLM rhetoric.

And there's also been significant efforts by anti-MLMers to hide positive publicity through similar endeavours. Eric Scheibeler is in the process of contacting virtually every journalist on the planet and plugging his book, and hired an internet PR guy to edit wikipedia and setup multiple websites. Taylor and FitzPatrick regularly swamp the FTC and Attorney's General with their claims.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Can anyone else read Icerats last few posts without cringing?

Icerat, you are spinning so hard I'm surprised you haven't gotten dizzy and thrown up.

You are obviously completely brainwashed into thinking amway is the greatest thing in the universe when the facts staring you right in the face say the complete opposite.

I'm not going to both responding point by point to all of your garbage as I think you are doing a fine job of making yourself look like a maniac.

 

[icerat]

Oh look, all the anti-amway zealots just completely ignore yet again a post with clear evidence, including supportling links, showing their claims are false so they just resort to ad hominems.

What a surprise.

 

[bookitty]

Back up a ways. When I mentioned that my cousin tried to drag me into Arbonne, I pointed out that she had already contacted the majority of my friends and family. Were I to become an Arbonne sales person under her, I would be trying to compete with her already established business. This would be problematic.

You compared it to Pepsi. But that still doesn't make sense. Pepsi has a recognized brand with an existing market. Pepsi limits the number of sales people to the amount that any area can support. Arbonne does not. In fact, quite the opposite. In addition to my cousin, I would also be competing with anyone else she managed to wrangle AND, presumably, the people under me.

In order for the Arbonne model of income to work, I would need to start with a very limited amount of consumers and then work very hard to limit that amount even further by recruiting more competition. Even if I branch out beyond my immediate friends and family, I am bringing in competition in these new areas. And the competition brings in their own, etc until the amount of potential consumers is very, very small.

So, how is this different from a pyramid scheme? And, can you illustrate this difference without using the analogy of a company that uses a completely different marketing technique?

 

[icerat]

Back up a ways. When I mentioned that my cousin tried to drag me into Arbonne, I pointed out that she had already contacted the majority of my friends and family. Were I to become an Arbonne sales person under her, I would be trying to compete with her already established business. This would be problematic.

Well, without knowing how Arbonne operates, my personal experience is that people buy off you not the company. Some people who wouldn't buy off your cousin will buy off you, and vice versa. Having said that, what business of any type grows to any significant sized through only selling to friends and family? That's fine if you want a hobby to maybe earn some pocket money, but if you actually want to develop a business then your friends and family are not your market.

You compared it to Pepsi. But that still doesn't make sense. Pepsi has a recognized brand with an existing market. Pepsi limits the number of sales people to the amount that any area can support.

Sorry, but I disagree with this assertion. There is nothing that I'm aware of stopping me opening up a store and selling Pepsi pretty much anywhere I'm allowed to open a store. Pepsi isn't going to go "sorry, the store over the road already sells Pepsi, so we're not going to let you". It simply doesn't happen.

Arbonne does not. In fact, quite the opposite. In addition to my cousin, I would also be competing with anyone else she managed to wrangle AND, presumably, the people under me.

As already pointed out, "the people under you" are no more your competitor than I would be a competitor of Pepsi, or a Pepsi wholesaler I buy off, and selling the Pepsi through my store.

In order for the Arbonne model of income to work, I would need to start with a very limited amount of consumers and then work very hard to limit that amount even further by recruiting more competition.

You're missing something quite fundamental in the model here. Your sentence there made no sense. You're essentially complaining that you selling more products is a bad thing, because then there are more people using the products so it's harder to sell more products! You do understand that when your downline buys a product, they're effectively buying it off you? That when they have a new customer, *your sales* increase?

Even if I branch out beyond my immediate friends and family, I am bringing in competition in these new areas.

Again you're saying "if I increase my sales, I'm just making it harder to get more sales!"

No No No. Yes, theoretically getting more wholesale sales makes it harder to get retail sales, but so what? You *want* to expand your wholesale sales as it's less work. Say you're making say 25% margin on your retail sales, and 5% on your wholesale sales. You're retail sales is naturally limited by how many people you can contact and how much you can personally sell and manage. You wholesale sales have no such limit. 5 wholesaler customers selling the exact same retail sales volume as you will make you as much money as if you did it yourself - but for less work. If they do more than that in retail, or create wholesale sales themselves, or you expand to 6 wholesale customers you're making MORE money than from your retailing for a lot less work.

If we go back to Pepsi again - how much do they make selling direct to the consumer (retailing), and how much do they make selling to wholesalers, franchises etc etc.

I'd venture to suggest that >99.999% of the sales volume comes from wholesale sales, not retail sales. Yet you think wholesaling is a bad idea because doing so is competing for the same retail space? I don't get it.

And the competition brings in their own, etc until the amount of potential consumers is very, very small.

So find a wholesale customer in another town. Voila, your sales increases and there's no issues at all of potential consumers in your local area - you've expanded out of your local area.

So, how is this different from a pyramid scheme? And, can you illustrate this difference without using the analogy of a company that uses a completely different marketing technique?

How is this different to a pyramid scheme? Well for a start, by definition in a pyramid scheme you make money through recruiting, not through sales of products to end users. Recruit a million people into Arbonne or Amway but nobody buys any products, you don't make a cent. Recruit a hundred people into a pyramid scheme make a bucketload. Then you'll get sent to prison!

What you seem to be missing is that network marketing involves a mix of creating wholesale customers and retail customers. While with the right products and in the right market place you can create a pretty decent income as a retailer, the idea for people who want to expand and create a significant business is to be primarily a wholesaler, not a retailer. The margins are less, but there's also a lot less work once it's setup. I can spend 10 hours a month getting $100 profit from a retail sale, or 10 minutes a month to get $20 profit from a wholesale sale.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Oh look, all the anti-amway zealots just completely ignore yet again a post with clear evidence, including supportling links, showing their claims are false so they just resort to ad hominems.

What a surprise.

We have hundreds of posts going back and forth on all of these issues.

I think amway is a scam. You've shown us ABSOLUTELY NOTHING which refutes that basic point.

Anyway keep talking. You keep digging a deeper and deeper hole as you try to defend this wacky business cult.

 

[gtc]

Can anyone else read Icerats last few posts without cringing?

Icerat, you are spinning so hard I'm surprised you haven't gotten dizzy and thrown up.

You are obviously completely brainwashed into thinking amway is the greatest thing in the universe when the facts staring you right in the face say the complete opposite.

I'm not going to both responding point by point to all of your garbage as I think you are doing a fine job of making yourself look like a maniac.

This is absolutely true.

 

[Epok]

How about -

meeting means it's a lot more time efficient to show a bunch of people once, then each person one on one.

or how about -

meeting means it's possible for me, a new IBO, to get an experienced, successful IBO to explain the business

or how about -

meeeting means it's possible to meet a variety of people who do this business and evaluate what type of people do it

Here I see that you are just giving reasons for why it is easier to describe this stuff in person but you don't address the issue of why MLMers refuse to give any information unless they can meet with you in person. I can say from personal experience that I have seen this type of behavior because a friend of mine did exactly that to me. Now, I do believe that the reason that they do that is so you don't have a chance to come across any bad publicity about the company.

Of course, I'm sure there's other people like yourself who have so little faith in themselves that they couldn't possibly survive seeing something in the company of others, they'd obviously be far too weak to resist all that peer pressure!

I have some books and CDs that might be able to help you with your lack of confidence, Almo. Really, you should work on it, it's probably holding you back no end.

This sounds like a thinly veiled insult while trying to sell someone onto your product.

Now I am asuming that Amway sells the same woo woo health products that Melaleuca does. What is a Pro-Amway/pro-woo person doing on a skeptic forum? MLMs are such a great hustle because they get their cult-like members to do the advertising for them. And just because Pepsi and other companies spend millions on advertising doesn't mean that you have to spend millions of dollars on advertising just to sell your product. There are plenty of successful, legitimate, non-MLM, non-scam companies that are very successful.

 

[icerat]

Here I see that you are just giving reasons for why it is easier to describe this stuff in person but you don't address the issue of why MLMers refuse to give any information unless they can meet with you in person.

Your overgeneralizing a bit here aren't you? If people ask me I certainly give them some more information.

I can say from personal experience that I have seen this type of behavior because a friend of mine did exactly that to me. Now, I do believe that the reason that they do that is so you don't have a chance to come across any bad publicity about the company.

This is one of the reasons, particularly for new people that don't have the skills or knowledge to be able to address comments and objections that come up. I can give you case after case of people who have said something like "if I'd known I was going to look at Amway, I wouldn't have gone. I'm glad I did because it's nothing like I thought".

I'm dealing with a guy now who isn't keen on coming to our seminars because of the chanting and candle waving he saw on Dateline. The thing is, in 10 years of going to these seminars I've never once encountered anything remotely like chanting and candle waving at any of our seminars. He thinks that's what we do. Today I did a followup with a lady who has been buying Amway products for years off some friends. They pretty much held tupperware party style stuff. I'm not interested in doing that, neither is she. Neither her "Amway" friends nor her had an inkling of the type of thing we do building professional networks.

Getting more information is *exactly* what we want people to do. Unfortunately due to past experiences and/or reading other people *entirely unrepresentative* experiences, many people decide NOT to get more information because they think they know everything already. Heck *I* am one of those people. When my sponsor called me up I asked him if it was Amway and said I wasn't interested. He said it was and asked me what I knew. I explained how I'd been an IBO before, he asked me a few questions and explained a bit how he and the team he was with operated. I was an Amway expert - I'd even been an IBO for cryin out loud. What he showed me and what I do today is NOTHING like I thought he was calling about. Too many people are like folk here - for some reason which defies logic they think an extremeley loose nit organisation involving millions of people, most of whom never have anything at all to do with eachother, trained by different people and different companies - for some reason they think everyone does it the same way!

So we have to be careful to ensure that people actually *do* get more information, rather than make a decision based on very very limited information. Now, having said that there's professional ways to do it, and there's unprofessional ways. My sponsor did it professionally. Others do not.

This sounds like a thinly veiled insult while trying to sell someone onto your product.

It was a joke. His problem is arrogance, not a lack of confidence. Believe me I'm not trying to "sell" him a damn thing. He has no interest in "buying" and I have no interest in trying to sell him anything.

Now I am asuming that Amway sells the same woo woo health products that Melaleuca does.

I've undertaken no research into what Melaleuca offers, so I can't say. Nutrilite is not "woo". Nutrilite employs over a thousand scientists and works with top research institutions around the world and has hundreds of published papers and conference presentations. I am a research scientist by training, that's my background before I went into business for myself. While obviously, just like in any other field, quality varies from study to study, and the scientific support for a product varies from product to product, Nutrilite is one hell of an impressive brand. All we ask is that people evaluate the evidence.

What is a Pro-Amway/pro-woo person doing on a skeptic forum?

I'm a skeptic. I did however make the unfortunate mistake of believing other skeptics collect data and form opinions based on the evidence. I've discovered that for some topics this simply isn't true - well, and the fact there's a lot of irrational woo believers on this forum as well. I've not done any research to see if the anti-mlmers here are primarily of that group, so I have no expectation they'll make rational, logical evaluations, or they're primarily misinformed skeptics who for some reason leave rationality at the door when evaluating a topic like MLM.

MLMs are such a great hustle because they get their cult-like members to do the advertising for them. And just because Pepsi and other companies spend millions on advertising doesn't mean that you have to spend millions of dollars on advertising just to sell your product. There are plenty of successful, legitimate, non-MLM, non-scam companies that are very successful.

I'm not sure what your point is here? There's plenty of successful companies in all fields. Amway, and many other MLMs, spends millions on advertising too by the way. I know some reps claim they "don't advertise", but it's not true, it's a myth. Indeed I saw one published study comparing legitimate MLMs to illegal pyramid schemes claiming to be MLM and they pointed out one distinguishing feature is that the scams do pretty much no traditional advertising at all, while the legitimate companies like Amway, Avon, Mary Kay etc all have multi-million dollar advertising budgets in support of field efforts.

 

[icerat]

This is absolutely true.

So which part of the confirmable facts and figures supported by links I posted is "spinning".

It's really quite straight forward. Price A > Price B or Price B > Price A.

Where's the spin?

Or you can't handle the facts so you've just got to make (and agree with) inane comments?

Personally if I was you or NT I'd be cringing in humilation. How long can you maintain the "overprice crap" myth in the face of clear evidence to the contrary? Don't you find it at all humiliating to espouse beliefs that are clearly and provably not true? Heck, at least with religion one can't really disprove the existence of a god, but your beliefs on this topic are being clearly disproved again and again yet you persist in your "faith"!

Quite amazing really.

 

[NewtonTrino]

I'm a skeptic. I did however make the unfortunate mistake of believing other skeptics collect data and form opinions based on the evidence. I've discovered that for some topics this simply isn't true - well, and the fact there's a lot of irrational woo believers on this forum as well. I've not done any research to see if the anti-mlmers here are primarily of that group, so I have no expectation they'll make rational, logical evaluations, or they're primarily misinformed skeptics who for some reason leave rationality at the door when evaluating a topic like MLM.

You realize this is exactly the same kind of tune that the woo wooers of all kinds spout right? Whether it's homeopathy, dowsing, whackadoo religion or amway we are always the ones who are "looking at the correct facts" or are "painting them all with a broad brush". We are supposed to believe that their particular woo that has all the signs of being complete garbage is somehow different. In your case it's extra funny because you have no choice to admit that huge portions of amway have done hugely fraudulent things in the past so you have to spin your group as being "special". Nothing could be further from the truth. Of course your group does a better job spinning this ridiculous business, they have no choice if they want to survive. But that's all it is, same crap in different packaging.

Icerat, come back when you've made some significant money from this scam. Then you can be the awesome model for how great this scam is (and show us you aren't making the vast majority of your money on the backs of those lower on the pyramid). Until then you have zero credibility talking about this topic. As far as I'm concerned you are simply one of the marks who hasn't realized they're being scammed yet.

 

[icerat]

You realize this is exactly the same kind of tune that the woo wooers of all kinds spout right? Whether it's homeopathy, dowsing, whackadoo religion or amway we are always the ones who are "looking at the correct facts" or are "painting them all with a broad brush".

So tell me what's "woo" about Amway products then NT.

We are supposed to believe that their particular woo that has all the signs of being complete garbage is somehow different.

A skeptic looks at the claims and the evidence and makes a decision. With regard homeopath and dowsing the suggested mechanism looks bogus, there's no other plausible mechanism, and testing finds no effect.

With the majority of Amway health-related products there are both science-based plausible mechanisms and research into efficacy.

A true skeptic would evaluate the evidence, not just dismiss it as woo for no particular reason than some guy once harassed them or explained the marketing model badly.

Icerat, come back when you've made some significant money from this scam.

Just for the heck of it I'll ask ... how much is "significant".

Until then you have zero credibility talking about this topic.

Right ... so I've used the products, sold the products, tried the business model, made money, read everything I can get my hands on about the business model and products, spoken to huge numbers of people who have both succeeeded and failed ...

... and I have zero credibility.

You ... have a relative who worked with it and did some programming for some folk once.

and your credibility is what exactly?

 

[NewtonTrino]

So tell me what's "woo" about Amway products then NT.

As usual you are purposfully misunderstanding. It's ok, I get your game now. Guess again what I'm talking about. It's not the products.

A skeptic looks at the claims and the evidence and makes a decision. With regard homeopath and dowsing the suggested mechanism looks bogus, there's no other plausible mechanism, and testing finds no effect.

With the majority of Amway health-related products there are both science-based plausible mechanisms and research into efficacy.

A true skeptic would evaluate the evidence, not just dismiss it as woo for no particular reason than some guy once harassed them or explained the marketing model badly.

Not talking about the products. Nice try though.

Just for the heck of it I'll ask ... how much is "significant".

Let's say a profit of 150,000 euros in a year. This should be easily achievable for someone with your vast amway knowledge.

Right ... so I've used the products, sold the products, tried the business model, made money, read everything I can get my hands on about the business model and products, spoken to huge numbers of people who have both succeeeded and failed ...

... and I have zero credibility.

You ... have a relative who worked with it and did some programming for some folk once.

and your credibility is what exactly?

My credibility isn't at stake as I'm not the one selling the snake oil. I love how you mischaracterize my experience. My dad has been involved for *30 years* and is still involved. My "some programming" was software that was used by hundreds of large pins to run their businesses. This gave me immense insight into multiple and large businesses including things like details on the tools scam profits. Frankly I think I've had a lot more inside access than you will have until you build a diamond level or above business. Have you ever had a chance to examine the business records of multiple diamonds? I have. They are crooks because of the tool scam. You admit that this scam exists, but you just don't care. Actually not only do you not care you think tools are great and fairly priced. This is all admitted on this board.

 

[icerat]

As usual you are purposfully misunderstanding. It's ok, I get your game now. Guess again what I'm talking about. It's not the products.

EPok raised the topic of "woo", directly in reference to products. I responded to his comments, you responded to mine.

Perhaps if you want to change the topic, you should said so.

So tell me, what exactly is "woo" about "find lots of people who want to buy your products, profit share with people who help you find lots of people who want to buy your products. Sell for more than you buy for."

That's all the business is about, what's "woo"?

Let's say a profit of 150,000 euros in a year. This should be easily achievable for someone with your vast amway knowledge.

Leadership expert John Maxwell once said "The greatest gap in life is the gap between knowing and doing"

Creating a business that profits €150,000/yr is not "easily achievable" for anyone. It's hard work and takes a lot of time, as you would expect for a legitimate business. I expect it will take me at least 5 years given my current goals and circumstances. If you're still hanging around this forum, I'll be sure to let you know.

Interesting of course that you seem to think people who set a goal to make €100/mth, and achieve it successfully, have somehow been "scammed".

They are crooks because of the tool scam. You admit that this scam exists, but you just don't care. Actually not only do you not care you think tools are great and fairly priced. This is all admitted on this board.

"tools" is a separate issue altogether. I'm more than aware some people have acted unethically in that area. That doesn't make Amway a scam.

Regarding selling tools in general, no I simply do not see how selling products of value at a good price to people who want them is a "scam". If you're doing false advertising, or whatever else, that's a different issue, but again that's a question not of the "selling tools" business model per se, but the marketing strategy used to promote it. Same issue as with Amway.

Despite your constant attempts to characterise my position differently, you'll get no argument from me that there's folk who have or do run their Amway businesses and/or tool businesses unethically.

 

[Epok]

I'm dealing with a guy now who isn't keen on coming to our seminars because of the chanting and candle waving he saw on Dateline. The thing is, in 10 years of going to these seminars I've never once encountered anything remotely like chanting and candle waving at any of our seminars. He thinks that's what we do. Today I did a followup with a lady who has been buying Amway products for years off some friends. They pretty much held tupperware party style stuff. I'm not interested in doing that, neither is she. Neither her "Amway" friends nor her had an inkling of the type of thing we do building professional networks.

I decided I didn't want to go for Melaleuca after I had my meeting and had a chance to do some research on it. And it wasn't just one newscast from Dateline that did it either. I spent many hours looking through many sources that were negative and positive. I saw more negative which is what influenced my decision. Amway gets bad press because the negative aspects of the company are overwhelming but ,unfortunately, people will still fall for the rhetoric of people like you.

Getting more information is *exactly* what we want people to do.

If this were true then you wouldn't have to hide the name of your company before you schedule your meetings.

Unfortunately due to past experiences and/or reading other people *entirely unrepresentative* experiences, many people decide NOT to get more information because they think they know everything already. Heck *I* am one of those people. When my sponsor called me up I asked him if it was Amway and said I wasn't interested. He said it was and asked me what I knew. I explained how I'd been an IBO before, he asked me a few questions and explained a bit how he and the team he was with operated. I was an Amway expert - I'd even been an IBO for cryin out loud. What he showed me and what I do today is NOTHING like I thought he was calling about. Too many people are like folk here - for some reason which defies logic they think an extremeley loose nit organisation involving millions of people, most of whom never have anything at all to do with eachother, trained by different people and different companies - for some reason they think everyone does it the same way!

So we have to be careful to ensure that people actually *do* get more information, rather than make a decision based on very very limited information. Now, having said that there's professional ways to do it, and there's unprofessional ways. My sponsor did it professionally. Others do not.

Why do you have "sponsors"? AA has sponsors and they are a cult-like group. They use misleading information and prey on people with low self-esteem who are at a low point in their life to bump up their membership.
The people who are very good at manipulative speech patterns are the ones who succeed at MLMs.

It would be nice if you would submit some evidence of your education since you claim to have a scientific background.

It was a joke. His problem is arrogance, not a lack of confidence. Believe me I'm not trying to "sell" him a damn thing. He has no interest in "buying" and I have no interest in trying to sell him anything.

I figured it was a joke. Its hard to take you seriously when you resort to that type of behavior to "advertise" for Amway. I see this a lot when someone makes a valid complaint against a MLM.

I've undertaken no research into what Melaleuca offers, so I can't say. Nutrilite is not "woo". Nutrilite employs over a thousand scientists and works with top research institutions around the world and has hundreds of published papers and conference presentations. I am a research scientist by training, that's my background before I went into business for myself. While obviously, just like in any other field, quality varies from study to study, and the scientific support for a product varies from product to product, Nutrilite is one hell of an impressive brand. All we ask is that people evaluate the evidence.

I looked up Nutrilite and it does sound like the kind of stuff that Melaleuca sells. I found this link http://www.nutrilite.com/en-us/Nature/WhyNutrilite/our-history.aspx I found this quote from the link to be incredible funny

Carl supplemented his meager diet with soups from what was available: local herbs, grasses, and vegetables, along with rusty nails (for iron), and lime stone and ground-up animal bones (for calcium).

C'mon dude, the guy was eating rusty nails. How is that not woo? Do you expect me to believe he was supplementing his diet with rusty nail and didn't Tetanus from it? And you claim that Amway employs over 1000 scientists just for Nutrilite. That is a lot of scientist. Can you find some links to any accredited scientific journals that they have published in that aren't owned by Amway? That is an extraordinary claim is it not?

I'm a skeptic. I did however make the unfortunate mistake of believing other skeptics collect data and form opinions based on the evidence. I've discovered that for some topics this simply isn't true - well, and the fact there's a lot of irrational woo believers on this forum as well. I've not done any research to see if the anti-mlmers here are primarily of that group, so I have no expectation they'll make rational, logical evaluations, or they're primarily misinformed skeptics who for some reason leave rationality at the door when evaluating a topic like MLM.

So when a few people disagree with your MLM you wanna discredit the whole group of skeptics. As if we are one entity. The people on this forum come from all walks of life. The only bond we have is that we like to question people's claims.

I'm not sure what your point is here? There's plenty of successful companies in all fields. Amway, and many other MLMs, spends millions on advertising too by the way. I know some reps claim they "don't advertise", but it's not true, it's a myth. Indeed I saw one published study comparing legitimate MLMs to illegal pyramid schemes claiming to be MLM and they pointed out one distinguishing feature is that the scams do pretty much no traditional advertising at all, while the legitimate companies like Amway, Avon, Mary Kay etc all have multi-million dollar advertising budgets in support of field efforts.

My point is that Amway is a shady company. Trying to lump Amway with Avon and Mary Kay is deceptive as well. Avon and Mary Kay are more upfront about their business practices and I doubt that their founders ate rusty nails. Haha, sorry I couldn't help sneaking that joke in there. I almost lost control of my bowels when I read that. Rusty Friggin' Nails dude. Thats it, I'm telling everybody about that one. We could start a thread that would last for 2000 pages making fun of Ol' Carl "Rusty Nail" Rehnborg.

 

[Epok]

I know it bad manners and really looked down on in the JREF community to make fun of and generalize someone but I hope we can make an exception in this case.

I would like to pass a vote around to the committee to rename Icerat "Rusty Nail Jr.". Normally one little tidbit of info like that shouldn't completely discredit someone or a whole company but I find that to be incredible and it could possibly explain a lot of the actions of Amway members. I would like dedicate the song Clowns Are Experts (At Making Us Laugh) by The Vandals to you, Mr Rusty Nail Jr. http://www.metrolyrics.com/clowns-are-experts-at-making-us-laugh-lyrics-the-vandals.html

 

[NewtonTrino]

EPok raised the topic of "woo", directly in reference to products. I responded to his comments, you responded to mine.

Perhaps if you want to change the topic, you should said so.

So tell me, what exactly is "woo" about "find lots of people who want to buy your products, profit share with people who help you find lots of people who want to buy your products. Sell for more than you buy for."

That's all the business is about, what's "woo"?

The woo part is that it's a good business opportunity.;

Leadership expert John Maxwell once said "The greatest gap in life is the gap between knowing and doing"

Creating a business that profits €150,000/yr is not "easily achievable" for anyone. It's hard work and takes a lot of time, as you would expect for a legitimate business. I expect it will take me at least 5 years given my current goals and circumstances. If you're still hanging around this forum, I'll be sure to let you know.

Of course it's not easily achievable by anyone. This is one of the main lies of amway. If you "do the work" and "follow the system" that success is guaranteed. It's a lie plain and simple. My business (which btw makes a helluva lot more than 150k euros in profit) isn't built on a pyramid of suckers either.

Interesting of course that you seem to think people who set a goal to make €100/mth, and achieve it successfully, have somehow been "scammed".

Find me some of these mythical people where this is their goal. This isn't how the opportunity is sold and you know it. What a crock.

"tools" is a separate issue altogether. I'm more than aware some people have acted unethically in that area. That doesn't make Amway a scam.

This is where we disagree. Why would you want to be involved with something that's so tainted that people run away at the name?

Regarding selling tools in general, no I simply do not see how selling products of value at a good price to people who want them is a "scam". If you're doing false advertising, or whatever else, that's a different issue, but again that's a question not of the "selling tools" business model per se, but the marketing strategy used to promote it. Same issue as with Amway.

Despite your constant attempts to characterise my position differently, you'll get no argument from me that there's folk who have or do run their Amway businesses and/or tool businesses unethically.

Now, I just extend this unethical model to ALL amway groups. They ALL operate this way even if you refuse to see it. Find me a group that doesn't sell tools into their group and I'll agree that it's more ethical although still crappy as a business.

 

[icerat]

Of course it's not easily achievable by anyone. This is one of the main lies of amway.

No, this one of the main lies of people like you - that Amway claims it is easy.

My business (which btw makes a helluva lot more than 150k euros in profit) isn't built on a pyramid of suckers either.

You've created a business that creates 150K in profit after everyone and everything has been paid and with minimal input from you? Good for you. It's rare.

Find me some of these mythical people where this is their goal.

I'm getting active now and done a few followups the past week or so -

First guys goal - 1000€ a month, after tax, to replace his income as a bus driver.
Second, a lady - 100€ a month, she basically wants to have home parties around sports nutrition for some fun and extra cash
Third, a guy - 1000€ a month, after tax, to allow him time to focus on writing more books. He's just published his first but realises he needs an income to be able to do more.
Fourth, a gal - 2000€ a month, to replace her income.
Fifth guy - he's already a successful businessman, an asset millionaire, been researching network marketing, and wants to generate an additional passive income of 4000€/mth, thinks this will be a good way to do it. His main goal though is to help others do it, but first he needs to learn how himself
Sixth guy - a successful internet entrepreneur, I don't know his $$$ goal, but he simply wants to incorporate Nutrilite into the products he's already offering people to aid against psoriasis, an area he has a personal interests in.

Not a single one of them has a goal remotely near your €12500/month. I'm sure they'd all *like* that, who wouldn't? but it's not what they're setting as a goal coming in to the opportunity.

This isn't how the opportunity is sold and you know it. What a crock.

No, what is "a crock" is your absurd claim to know how millions of independent business owners around the world operate their Amway businesses. You don't. I and the people I work with show the possibilities from €100 a month to €12000 a month and ask them what their goals are and what they want to achieve. It's exactly the same way it was "sold" to me 10 years ago.

This is where we disagree. Why would you want to be involved with something that's so tainted that people run away at the name?

Never had it happen.

Now, I just extend this unethical model to ALL amway groups. They ALL operate this way even if you refuse to see it. Find me a group that doesn't sell tools into their group and I'll agree that it's more ethical although still crappy as a business.

Your assertion that because someone offers training and support materials they are for some reason automatically unethical is absurd. When they do it cheaper than from alternative sources it's even more absurd.

 

[NewtonTrino]

No, this one of the main lies of people like you - that Amway claims it is easy.

So "the system" doesn't have a 100% success rate even if you execute as told RIGHT?

You've created a business that creates 150K in profit after everyone and everything has been paid and with minimal input from you? Good for you. It's rare.

Actually way more profit than that.

I'm getting active now and done a few followups the past week or so -

First guys goal - 1000€ a month, after tax, to replace his income as a bus driver.
Second, a lady - 100€ a month, she basically wants to have home parties around sports nutrition for some fun and extra cash
Third, a guy - 1000€ a month, after tax, to allow him time to focus on writing more books. He's just published his first but realises he needs an income to be able to do more.
Fourth, a gal - 2000€ a month, to replace her income.
Fifth guy - he's already a successful businessman, an asset millionaire, been researching network marketing, and wants to generate an additional passive income of 4000€/mth, thinks this will be a good way to do it. His main goal though is to help others do it, but first he needs to learn how himself
Sixth guy - a successful internet entrepreneur, I don't know his $$$ goal, but he simply wants to incorporate Nutrilite into the products he's already offering people to aid against psoriasis, an area he has a personal interests in.

Not a single one of them has a goal remotely near your €12500/month. I'm sure they'd all *like* that, who wouldn't? but it's not what they're setting as a goal coming in to the opportunity.

Bring them on to talk then.

No, what is "a crock" is your absurd claim to know how millions of independent business owners around the world operate their Amway businesses. You don't. I and the people I work with show the possibilities from €100 a month to €12000 a month and ask them what their goals are and what they want to achieve. It's exactly the same way it was "sold" to me 10 years ago.

I'm sure somebody somewhere only wants to make a few extra bucks but that's not how the opportunity is presented in the vast majority if cases. To claim otherwise is just plain lying.

Your assertion that because someone offers training and support materials they are for some reason automatically unethical is absurd. When they do it cheaper than from alternative sources it's even more absurd.

Selling training materials to your DOWNLINE for 10x what they cost to produce is what's absurd and unethical. Especially with the garbage that's on most of this "motivational" material.