Moderated What's wrong with porn?

[Belz...]

I see what you are saying, but the act of filming the sex could be the arousing factor in itself, perhaps?

Perhaps, but only for the participants.

 

[Belz...]

That is not a reason to find it specifically disgusting.

I don't like asparagus. I find it disgusting. Do you require a reason for that ?

 

[Southwind17]

Er... was that supposed to prove anything ? What was that about, now ?

It was merely an observation leading to a little playful ribbing, but it's obvious that your humour sensory gland by-pass has been a resounding success (congratulations - I thought you seemed quiet over the weekend - if I'd known I'd have had some grapes delivered to your bedside!), so I'll refrain from wasting any more wit and jesting on you (unless it's for the consumption of others, with you just bearing the brunt!).
Top tip: take the time to read and consider before responding. Things tend to work out better that way around!

 

[Southwind17]

I don't like asparagus. I find it disgusting. Do you require a reason for that ?

You find asparagus disgusting, ergo you don't like it. Do you require any more logical fallacies pointing out to you?

 

[Southwind17]

Gee, I wondered how long it would take you to revert back to your true self.

It must feel so deflating to have made over 15,000 posts here and have nothing to show for it!

ETA: BTW - "revert back" is a classic tautological blunder, on the off chance you're interested!

 

[JFrankA]

You make that sound like such "folks" are a rare breed. I'm actually one of those folks, and not ashamed of it, and I'm sure there are millions more too. I couldn't be bothered with all the fluffy stuff around the edges (so to speak!), although, that said, there are some plots that I do like, including women in uniforms and the recurring straight-up massage parlour that turns out not to be so! Accordingly, I wouldn't really describe the porn "actresses" that I've tended to see as actresses and men as actors. In most cases not a single word is even spoken! To my mind they're simply performing sexual acts (not acting) in front of a camera. And to be clear, I don't see this as objectification. It's still real people doing it consensually, both women and men. Which I guess is why porn cartoons and cgi porn do nothing for me.

I can see that as well. And if I may comment, I feel that there is some kind of acting going on. I think a great example of that is in the movie "Zack and Miri Make a Porno". The scene where Zack and Miri have their shoot compared to the other people in the movie is an exaggerated illustration of how real sex is different from shooting a porno sex.

The tendency in porn now as compared to years ago is to make the porn more like real life sex, but think that can't be done completely 100%. I think just knowing that a camera is on you makes that much of a difference, there's always some kind of "someone is watching" feeling going on. Some people find that a turn on, some people don't.

And that's why I say that any vids of sex, whether it's shown to the world or shot once and never seen again is technically porn, if the reason to shoot it is to cause arousal in someone, even if it's only for one person on camera.

I'd say you're not objectifying provided you're not supporting it (I don't think arousal has anything to do with objectification). If you're suggesting you've directed some porn fitting that scenario then yes, I'd say you were objectifying (together with many other verbs, adverbs, nouns and adjectives!). From what we've learned about you here though, JFrankA, I'm pretty sure that's not the case, though.

Thank you.

If I may ask a follow-up question, and be aware I'm asking to challenge myself and not you, since the porn I film does sometime contain scenes where the woman is resisting and therefore looks like she's scared, or angry, etc, until she finally gives into the sex - would that constitute objectification?

Basically, I'm asking this: as a porno producer, where is the line?

Again, I still believe that objectification is in the eye of the beholder, but I am challenging my beliefs.

 

[Southwind17]

If I may ask a follow-up question, and be aware I'm asking to challenge myself and not you, since the porn I film does sometime contain scenes where the woman is resisting and therefore looks like she's scared, or angry, etc, until she finally gives into the sex - would that constitute objectification?

Basically, I'm asking this: as a porno producer, where is the line?

Again, I still believe that objectification is in the eye of the beholder, but I am challenging my beliefs.

Personally? I don't consciously favour any objectification, including staged. Why (and this is arguable)? Because it could be misconstrued by some as acceptable behaviour. The same reason I don't endorse simulated rape. OK, it might be true that the vast majority of people subsequently viewing it "know what's what", and it might also be true that there's an inverse correlation between porn and rape (I stress "might" here - I don't know), but I struggle to see how the simulation of any misdemeaner for third party enjoyment could be fully validated as serving to counter it. There are always exceptions.

I honestly feel that one cannot fully divorce one's fantasies from reality. To my mind, if a man fantasises about raping a woman, for example, that shows some deep-routed desire to rape, regardless of how faint, and passing it off as fantasising is somewhat of a cop out. Fortunately, most men are capable of resisting any physical urge that such fantasy might conjure. Unfortunately, however, a few men cannot, and anything that serves to feed and legitimize such behaviour, even if only in the eye of the beholder (to use your term) could be dangerous.

Objectification, and any other arguably derogatory act, seems no different to me, in principle.

 

[Cainkane1]

The title says it all. I'm interested to hear people's views, particularly justifications for/against, including details of any scientific and empirical evidence against porn.

Who's first?

Theres a lot of things wrong with porn. The girls are often just out of highschool and while 18 may be a legal age to perform these acts I'm of the opinion that these kids are being exploited. Some of the things they do they could not possibly enjoy and some are downright injurious to their physical and mental health.

Girls in this business often want to leave and do other kinds of work but since their activities are on video this can be used against them later in life. How would you like to be a secretary and someone find out what you did for your first job?

How would you like to have children and they one day find out how Mommy used to make a living? I feel that these kids will one day regret what they did and their mistake will be on video for all the world to see.

 

[Eddie Dane]

I honestly feel that one cannot fully divorce one's fantasies from reality. To my mind, if a man fantasises about raping a woman, for example, that shows some deep-routed desire to rape, regardless of how faint, and passing it off as fantasising is somewhat of a cop out. Fortunately, most men are capable of resisting any physical urge that such fantasy might conjure.

People fantasize about all sorts of things, some of it very violent.

By your logic I really want to go to my neighbour's house when he's playing loud techno music, ring the doorbell and when he opens the door, bash his skull in with a golf club, whilst yelling 'STOP PLAYING THAT TRIPE YOU BASTARD, AND STOP BREATHING MY AIR'. *Thud*Thud*Thud*.

By the same logic, do you think that women who have rape fantasies would also want to act them out? For real?

 

[MontagK505]

Personally? I don't consciously favour any objectification, including staged. Why (and this is arguable)? Because it could be misconstrued by some as acceptable behaviour. The same reason I don't endorse simulated rape. OK, it might be true that the vast majority of people subsequently viewing it "know what's what", and it might also be true that there's an inverse correlation between porn and rape (I stress "might" here - I don't know), but I struggle to see how the simulation of any misdemeaner for third party enjoyment could be fully validated as serving to counter it. There are always exceptions.

I honestly feel that one cannot fully divorce one's fantasies from reality. To my mind, if a man fantasises about raping a woman, for example, that shows some deep-routed desire to rape, regardless of how faint, and passing it off as fantasising is somewhat of a cop out. Fortunately, most men are capable of resisting any physical urge that such fantasy might conjure. Unfortunately, however, a few men cannot, and anything that serves to feed and legitimize such behaviour, even if only in the eye of the beholder (to use your term) could be dangerous.Objectification, and any other arguably derogatory act, seems no different to me, in principle.

This same argument could be applied to any questonable act in any movie.

Example: The bank robbery scene in the movie "Heat". This did inspire some thugs to attempt the same thing in real-life.

Why is porn treated differently?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Theres a lot of things wrong with porn. The girls are often just out of highschool and while 18 may be a legal age to perform these acts I'm of the opinion that these kids are being exploited. Some of the things they do they could not possibly enjoy and some are downright injurious to their physical and mental health.

People are strange, at least some of the activities are done by people out of pure enjoyment of the act. For example there are people who take great pride in the size of objects that can be inserted into their various orrifices.

So you would need to start by demonstrating injury as well as lack of enjoyablity. I mean I would not enjoy being hung from hooks in my back, but people do it with out any financial coercion, so they must be getting some form of enjoyment from it.

Girls in this business often want to leave and do other kinds of work but since their activities are on video this can be used against them later in life. How would you like to be a secretary and someone find out what you did for your first job?

This seems to be a bit circular though. The problem with porn is that it has a stigma attached to it by society. This is being used as an aguement against porn instead of an argument against society.

How many employers look far back into someones work history?

How would you like to have children and they one day find out how Mommy used to make a living? I feel that these kids will one day regret what they did and their mistake will be on video for all the world to see.

Given the vast ammount of porn what are the odds of them seeing a video from say a decade ago? This seems only applicable to active porn stars, and why is this such a problem? Do you have any evidence that knowning your parent is a porn star is harmful to children?

 

[Matthew Best]

To my mind, if a man fantasises about raping a woman, for example, that shows some deep-routed desire to rape, regardless of how faint, and passing it off as fantasising is somewhat of a cop out.

Incidentally, I think you'll find that should be deep-rooted, on the off-chance you're interested!

 

[Cainkane1]

People are strange, at least some of the activities are done by people out of pure enjoyment of the act. For example there are people who take great pride in the size of objects that can be inserted into their various orrifices.

So you would need to start by demonstrating injury as well as lack of enjoyablity. I mean I would not enjoy being hung from hooks in my back, but people do it with out any financial coercion, so they must be getting some form of enjoyment from it.



This seems to be a bit circular though. The problem with porn is that it has a stigma attached to it by society. This is being used as an aguement against porn instead of an argument against society.

How many employers look far back into someones work history?



Given the vast ammount of porn what are the odds of them seeing a video from say a decade ago? This seems only applicable to active porn stars, and why is this such a problem? Do you have any evidence that knowning your parent is a porn star is harmful to children?

People who don't like you and plain busybodies often research your background. Why give them ammunition? There is a video on youtube that shows just how many former porn stars are dead. Suicide, drug over doses and aids. The porn industry is hard even on the men.

I'm not a prude. When porn first became legal I was the first to go to the cinema and watch it. I'm getting old though and looking at kids young enough to be my grandchildren engaged in the industry is alarming to me. We didn't have aids in my day and drugs weren't as strong as they are now. People seemed more decent. I feel that the actors particularly the barely legal girls are being exploited.

 

[Belz...]

You're answering the wrong question JFrankA, and getting yourself all uptight in the process. Let's see now, do you see a fundamental difference between what the answers to these two questions might reveal?:

1. The thought of my drinking urine disgusts me.
2. The idea of drinking urine disgusts me.

The first is a matter of the emotion that your own behaviour invokes in you.
The second is a matter of the emotion that the behaviour of others invokes in you.

There's a fundamental difference.

Huh ?

 

[Cainkane1]

You could say the same about a lot of the people who work at McDonald's.

You can't catch a std from flipping a burger.

 

[JFrankA]

You can't catch a std from flipping a burger.

But you can get terribly burned or robbed.

 

[ponderingturtle]

People who don't like you and plain busybodies often research your background. Why give them ammunition? There is a video on youtube that shows just how many former porn stars are dead. Suicide, drug over doses and aids. The porn industry is hard even on the men.

So? Remember that porn is a bigger business than mainstream movies. There are just so many people that you are going to get killed or die simply because of the numbers. This seems like it would be a very good argument against music or film in general, as it applies just as well. Now all we need to do is stigmatize all entertainers...

As for finding that someone worked in porn, well with the using of porn names how would you tie someone to their real name especialy if they were not a big name in porn?

I'm not a prude. When porn first became legal I was the first to go to the cinema and watch it. I'm getting old though and looking at kids young enough to be my grandchildren engaged in the industry is alarming to me. We didn't have aids in my day and drugs weren't as strong as they are now. People seemed more decent. I feel that the actors particularly the barely legal girls are being exploited.

Any evidence that AIDS is a major concern for say the past 10 years? I remember cases of infections on porn shoots being national news, so if a couple of infections are that newsworthy they can not be that common.

As for drugs been weaker what is your evidence for that? Herioin and Cocaine would always have had the strength dependant on how much it is cut with.

There is certainly explotation going on, but that is true of young people in most any business at all. They don't know their rights and what to expect so they are easier to take advantage of.

 

[ponderingturtle]

You can't catch a std from flipping a burger.

And how does the risks of fryer burns or salmonella compare?

Fewer porn stars are shot in hold ups than convience store clerks. What are the risks? Is being a porn star really the worlds deadiest job and do those fishermen need to give up their claim to fame?

 

[Belz...]

I could have been less terse, but I was pre-coffee.

That's why I don't drink coffee.

Or urine.

 

[Belz...]

Did I see her as an object? Perhaps. If I did, I saw her as a female person object who liked sex. I wouldn't have enjoyed seeing her as an object of degradation.

I don't know. One of the arousing things about porn, to me, is the impression that the woman is enjoying herself. Clearly, if her state of mind is important, then she's not objectified, no ?