Moderated What's wrong with porn?

[ponderingturtle]

Now you hang on for a second. It *is* a fetish to objectify women in certain ways, and that isn't what pornography does. Pornography, if it objectifies anything, objectifies *sex*. As far as the people being objectified, that would obviously be both males and females. Bodies. In general.

I would add that being objectified in the right context for a limited time is not necessarily a bad thing.

 

[Southwind17]

I never said the word "disgust", did I?

...once again, an assumption.

Regardless of that, I did answer your question as to "Why do you not drink urine?"

No but Ron did! I think you've lost the plot JFrankA.

 

[Southwind17]

Even if I'm to accept that axiom, there still is a bit of a gap to be bridged from finding something disgusting to disrespecting someone for doing it.

E.g., I find the taste of mutton disgusting. Should I start thinking that whoever eats it has a self-esteem problem?

E.g., for that matter don't even get me started on pheasant or other meat softened that way before cooking. Just the thought of eating something that's been basically rotting on a hook for days, makes me want to dash to the porcelain altar. Should I start disrespecting everyone who actually pays a premium for that kinda stuff?

E.g., one of the most (in)famous Swedish "delicacies" is Surströmming, i.e., fermented Herring. The thing stinks to high heavens. It's considered just about ready to be eaten when the can looks almost ball-shape, instead of the original tin can shape. From what I gather, even most modern day Swedes find the thing repulsive, and foreigners rarely manage to eat it even on a dare.

Educational link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcnfEVqNdoA

But apparently it's not toxic or anything, and the bacteria that are used to ferment that aren't really any worse than those used to ferment sausage or salami or, for that matter, cheese or yoghurt. Virtually all of us have eaten something made with or by bacteria. The ones used for Surströmming just happen to produce a horrible stench in the process.

So, should I start having contempt for those who eat Surströmming just because I find it disgusting?

E.g., if you think playing with a little fake crap in front of a camera for half an hour is disgusting, now think kneading real crap for a lifetime. Yep, that's how the fine art of tanning leather used to work in the days before modern chemistry. They'd knead the hides in crap. Literally. All day long. And then some more posh folks would wear clothes and boots made of that leather, or soldiers would use it for anything from armours to belts to boots.

Disgusting, I think you'll agree.

So, should I start having contempt for everyon who lived before the 19'th century or so?

ETA: and for that matter, I think I'll start having contempt for the ren faire kind of folk. Pining and trying to reenact those times... ugh...

No, is the answer to all of your questions (which are pretty much all one question unnecessarily repeated). I'll leave it to you to decide whether to spend your time reading back to see why it can be answered so simply. I'm sure not going to spend my time repeating myself in different ways just because you don't "get it".

 

[JFrankA]

No but Ron did! I think you've lost the plot JFrankA.

Doesn't matter if you are asking the disgust question or not, my list applies.

The specific disgust answer comes from number one and number three of that list.

I think raw carrots are disgusting. They make me sick just thinking of eating one. Does that mean I should feel disrespect for Mel Blanc who also hated carrots, but ate them raw while recording the voice of Bugs Bunny?

Perhaps I should disrespect Mel Blanc!


ETA: sorry, my posting needed clarification.

 

[Southwind17]

I would add that being objectified in the right context for a limited time is not necessarily a bad thing.

"In the right context". "For a limited time". You're so altruistic turtle, just like fuelair, oh so willing to run to other posters' defence when you spot their parapraxes, before they have time to respond and dig themselves in even deeper. You should be commended. Oh, and for the benefit of anybody who hasn't spotted it, here's what's prompted turtle's panic attack on this occasion:

BTW sugarb, I made a remark in Post #619 concerning something you wrote (I highlighted it). I don't think you responded (I thought you might). I'm interested to know - do you think it's OK for a man to objectify a woman by invitation but not otherwise? If so, what do you see as fundamentally different between the character of a man when he objectifies by invitation and otherwise? I'm hoping you don't claim that a man objectifying by invitation is only pretending to objectify, because that's not what your post says, or even implies, and that wouldn't be much fun, anyhow, would it!

 

[Southwind17]

Doesn't matter if you are asking the disgust question or not, my list applies.
The specific disgust answer comes from number one and number three of that list.
I think raw carrots are disgusting. They make me sick just thinking of eating one. Does that mean I should feel disrespect for Mel Blanc who also hated carrots, but ate them raw while recording the voice of Bugs Bunny?
Perhaps I should disrespect Mel Blanc!
ETA: sorry, my posting needed clarification.

Of course the "disgust" question matters. Ron wrote this:

I find the idea of drinking urine disgusting (or drinking cum). But other people do it and I have no problem with that, nor see it reasonable to think less of them because of it.

To which you, in the fullness of time, defended with this:

Oh for **** sake. I'll answer this.
I do not drink urine
1. Because I have been taught and conditioned to respond to drinking urine in a negative way.
2. Because it has no nutritional value to my body.
3. Because I don't like the taste.
4. Because it doesn't bring me sexual pleasure to be so submissive that I need to prove my loyalty to a Domme.
5. Because it doesn't bring me sexual pleasure to shock another person in that way.
6. Because I know of more imaginative and creative ways to shock, if I cared to shock a person sexually that is much more fun and devious.
7. Because someone hasn't paid me enough money to watch me do it.

In other words, you provided a list of reasons to justify why you don't drink urine. Your list goes no way to helping Ron justify why he finds the idea of drinking urine (or cum) disgusting. Get it now?

 

[HansMustermann]

"In the right context". "For a limited time". You're so altruistic turtle, just like fuelair, oh so willing to run to other posters' defence when you spot their parapraxes, before they have time to respond and dig themselves in even deeper. You should be commended. Oh, and for the benefit of anybody who hasn't spotted it, here's what's prompted turtle's panic attack on this occasion:

Yep, I'm voting "troll".

 

[HansMustermann]

In other words, you provided a list of reasons to justify why you don't drink urine. Your list goes no way to helping Ron justify why he finds the idea of drinking urine (or cum) disgusting. Get it now?

Yes, I get it, the latest in your long list of hand-waving is... that apparently you're mis-using a public board and thread as a private conversation with Ron, so obviously everyone else should stay out of it or their contribution doesn't count. See your the answer to the turtle too. Which has to be one of the lamest excuses to dodge a question or objection, but then again, why do I feel unsurprised by now?

 

[JFrankA]

Of course the "disgust" question matters. Ron wrote this

You misunderstood my use of the word "matters". Perhaps I should have stated "difference".

In any event your statement here:

In other words, you provided a list of reasons to justify why you don't drink urine. Your list goes no way to helping Ron justify why he finds the idea of drinking urine (or cum) disgusting. Get it now?

I am not answering the question for Ron, I'm answering it for me. And by using the same logic you use, I have had the experience to imagine that most people would have the same reasons.

But in answer to "why do I find the idea of drinking urine (or cum or eating raw carrots or drinking hot coffee (which I don't like)) disgusting is because of the list I gave you especially number three.

No matter how you re-word it, the answer is the same.

Now, I suppose if you could answer you own question that you have posted, i.e. Why do you find the idea of drinking urine (or cum) disgusting? and answer a follow up question:

Why is it relavant?

As I've stated, I find raw carrots disgusting. I also find black coffee disgusting. I also find beer disgusting. All are harmless, all don't cause any harm to anyone, just like urine or cum, yet why is this relavant to the discussion?

One more, if may, if I find those things disgusting, no matter the reason, (I've given you my reasons), then why should I automatically disrespect anyone who DOES like it?

I don't mean to be rude or insulting, but for someone who has claimed that I think people should think the way I do, you seem to be doing the same thing.

 

[JFrankA]

"In the right context". "For a limited time". You're so altruistic turtle, just like fuelair, oh so willing to run to other posters' defence when you spot their parapraxes, before they have time to respond and dig themselves in even deeper. You should be commended. Oh, and for the benefit of anybody who hasn't spotted it, here's what's prompted turtle's panic attack on this occasion:

BTW sugarb, I made a remark in Post #619 concerning something you wrote (I highlighted it). I don't think you responded (I thought you might). I'm interested to know - do you think it's OK for a man to objectify a woman by invitation but not otherwise? If so, what do you see as fundamentally different between the character of a man when he objectifies by invitation and otherwise? I'm hoping you don't claim that a man objectifying by invitation is only pretending to objectify, because that's not what your post says, or even implies, and that wouldn't be much fun, anyhow, would it!

Wait. Hold on.

Since you say you love porn so much, and hate "marshmallow" porn and perfer something harder than that, and also because you have said that we all objectify people depending on what they do, I believe you gave a football player as an example of being an object while on the field, therefore by watching porn, aren't you objectifying the women in the porn?

What does that say about your character?

Just asking.

 

[Southwind17]

Wait. Hold on.

Since you say you love porn so much, and hate "marshmallow" porn and perfer something harder than that, and also because you have said that we all objectify people depending on what they do, I believe you gave a football player as an example of being an object while on the field, therefore by watching porn, aren't you objectifying the women in the porn?

What does that say about your character?

Just asking.

Notwithstanding your misrepresenting me by using adjectives that I haven't, thereby essentially misquoting me (and you know what JFrankA, I think that's been the biggest problem with this thread, but not just this thread, it's possibly the biggest problem with Forums like this one generally), I suppose it says that my character is pretty much the same as yours, and everybody elses here, for that matter.

Just answering.

 

[Southwind17]

You misunderstood my use of the word "matters". Perhaps I should have stated "difference".

In any event your statement here:


I am not answering the question for Ron, I'm answering it for me. And by using the same logic you use, I have had the experience to imagine that most people would have the same reasons.

But in answer to "why do I find the idea of drinking urine (or cum or eating raw carrots or drinking hot coffee (which I don't like)) disgusting is because of the list I gave you especially number three.

No matter how you re-word it, the answer is the same.

Now, I suppose if you could answer you own question that you have posted, i.e. Why do you find the idea of drinking urine (or cum) disgusting? and answer a follow up question:

Why is it relavant?

As I've stated, I find raw carrots disgusting. I also find black coffee disgusting. I also find beer disgusting. All are harmless, all don't cause any harm to anyone, just like urine or cum, yet why is this relavant to the discussion?

One more, if may, if I find those things disgusting, no matter the reason, (I've given you my reasons), then why should I automatically disrespect anyone who DOES like it?

I don't mean to be rude or insulting, but for someone who has claimed that I think people should think the way I do, you seem to be doing the same thing.

You're answering the wrong question JFrankA, and getting yourself all uptight in the process. Let's see now, do you see a fundamental difference between what the answers to these two questions might reveal?:

1. The thought of my drinking urine disgusts me.
2. The idea of drinking urine disgusts me.

The first is a matter of the emotion that your own behaviour invokes in you.
The second is a matter of the emotion that the behaviour of others invokes in you.

There's a fundamental difference.

 

[sugarb]

BTW sugarb, I made a remark in Post #619 concerning something you wrote (I highlighted it). I don't think you responded (I thought you might). I'm interested to know - do you think it's OK for a man to objectify a woman by invitation but not otherwise? If so, what do you see as fundamentally different between the character of a man when he objectifies by invitation and otherwise? I'm hoping you don't claim that a man objectifying by invitation is only pretending to objectify, because that's not what your post says, or even implies, and that wouldn't be much fun, anyhow, would it!

Good afternoon, Southwind17. I just caught up on the thread and this came up a few times, so I'll start here I guess. I'm sorry I didn't respond, but it wasn't a question, and it seemed to me a...judgement I'd best not respond to. As you mentioned, I've felt at times that I'm close to breeching the MA, and I really don't want to do that. The "emphasis added for credulity" struck me as bait. I'm not a fish (although some would argue I evolved from one).

Anyway, yesterday afternoon/night we were out of town. It was a nursing home visit day, and when we returned I simply was not in the frame of mind to deal with this type of topic. I'm not sure that I am, yet, so right off the bat I'll tell you that my thoughts may seem jumbled. I'm a bit shaky today, so I apologize in advance.

The question you ask is a difficult one for me to answer, because...I'm not in the minds of other people, I didn't live their lives, and I don't know what types of interactions help them or hurt them. And I think that's part of the problem here. Of course, let me point out first that in answering your question, I'll not be referring to pornography, as my comment that you were so incredulous about isn't about pornography. We're getting into the realm of the personal, but I'll do my best to answer you.

Do I think it is okay for a man to objectify a woman only by invitation? And is there some fundamental difference between just doing so and being invited to do so. And my answer to that is this: Southwind17, my impression throughout this life of ours is that we all objectify one another to some extent, at different times, for different reasons. To say objectification isn't okay is to say that one should never ignore a waitress or be rude to a store clerk for something that store clerk cannot help. I think...that there is always a degree of objectifying going on in life. Sex is but a small, small part of it. That, of course, is only my opinion, based on my own observations and experiences in life.

The "character of the man". I don't think I can judge the character of any man by this one issue, but I'd say that those who objectify in a cold, off hand way (not by "invitation" as you put it, though again, and I'll get to it momentarily, "invitation" doesn't really strike me as the right word) is perhaps a person who has a sense of entitlement. The man who goes home and slaps his wife for not having his dinner ready. The woman who takes a lamp and hits her husband over the head for not buying her the right color sweater. The parent who shoves or hits a child for not behaving in a way that enables the parent to feel superior to other parents. Those types of objectification, that kind of character, is, I think, bordering on, if not deep into the realm of, seriously anti-social, narcissistic behavior.

This may surprise you, or you may not feel it is relevant, but I am nice to everyone. I am kind to each and every person I happen to interact with. Intentionally so, even if only because I grew up knowing what it felt like to not be recognized as human, to not be regarded as having feelings. One thing I have noticed, though...and perhaps this is the one area in my life where your "naive" accusation is true...is that people begin to take advantage of that "niceness" at times, and push to break. Sometimes I break. I'm human, but sometimes breaking doesn't diminish me as a person. Indeed, it *makes* me a person, no?

So, although I make extreme efforts to not do it, at times I am sure, like everyone else, that I objectify other humans in some ways. If I'm distracted, wrapped up in my own chores or problems, what have you. I treat people at times in an off-hand way. That's wrong...but it is also inevitable. At some point.

In my relationship, since that is what you commented on, for me personally, objectification is at times something *I* need. You see, all of my life has been caring for someone else, other people's problems, other people's issues. I'm a "people pleaser" with a severely guilty conscience (for no reason, it is just how I am). Those times of objectification are times when I can intentionally, and with no fear, dissociate myself from realities that I find hard to deal with. And with no guilt, because it is also pleasing to my guy, so there are mutual benefits, mostly for me though. You see, not everyone is the same. Not everyone feels "safe" in the here and now, and that temporary escape is almost crucial to me keeping things together (in my own mind).

But...I think what is bothering me in this discussion is that, while you seem to think that is a bad thing, you at the same time seem to dissociate from the fact that by watching the things you discuss, you are pretty much doing the same thing, only passively. Yet...you don't subject yourself to the same kinds of judgement you subject the people you are using for your entertainment to. That doesn't make sense to me, and although I realize that we're generally more blind to our own faults/guilts/shortcomings than we are to those of other people, I'm seeing a disconnect that makes no sense to me. And if that comes across as rude, I do not mean for it to, it simply perplexes me.

You know, that would be like my guy disrespecting me because I let myself be objectified (and no, it is not "pretend"...not for me, although I can see how some people might find that kind of "pretend" enjoyable at times), even though he's the one taking advantage of it. That would be pure hypocrisy, and worse, from my view.

Are you asking if I think that a man who objectifies a woman without mutual consent is "worse than" my guy? No. No. Unless he surpasses the boundaries of the laws and safety, sanity, and well being of who he is objectifying. The problem is, there are people who do that every day, in every aspect of life. Pornography, to me, is far removed from day to day reality. I don't watch it, Southwind17. Does that mean that people who do are more depraved than me? You say that my mind is warped...and yet, you are sitting somewhere watching people do things that you find disgusting, and somehow don't see *that* as warped?

I apologized for my wrong perceptions, when you indicated that they were wrong, and I sincerely mean it. I do think, though, that there's a bit of a disconnect between how you are judging the people that you admit you find enjoyment from. I'm sorry, but that really makes no sense to me.

Like I said, my head is muddled today, so if I failed to respond to what you were looking for, just remind me and I'll get back to that. I apologize in advance for perhaps being all over the place.

 

[JFrankA]

You're answering the wrong question JFrankA, and getting yourself all uptight in the process. Let's see now, do you see a fundamental difference between what the answers to these two questions might reveal?:

1. The thought of my drinking urine disgusts me.
2. The idea of drinking urine disgusts me.

The first is a matter of the emotion that your own behaviour invokes in you.
The second is a matter of the emotion that the behaviour of others invokes in you.

There's a fundamental difference.

Okay, I understand that.

But I still say in either case, the list I have still applies.

In any event you still haven't answered my follow up questions (edited to fit the second point):

Why is it relevant?

As I've stated, I find raw carrots disgusting. I also find that others drinking black coffee disgusting. I also find beer disgusting because I would imagine how I would feel drinking them, However, I understand that people like them and it's really all are harmless, all don't cause any harm to anyone, just like urine or cum, yet why is this relevant to the discussion?

One more, if may, if I find those things disgusting, no matter the reason, (I've given you my reasons), then why should I automatically disrespect anyone who DOES like it?

 

[JFrankA]

Notwithstanding your misrepresenting me by using adjectives that I haven't, thereby essentially misquoting me (and you know what JFrankA, I think that's been the biggest problem with this thread, but not just this thread, it's possibly the biggest problem with Forums like this one generally), I suppose it says that my character is pretty much the same as yours, and everybody elses here, for that matter.

Just answering.

Fair enough. Perhaps we both have to stop making assumptions about each other.

 

[porch]

I sometimes wonder if people unaware of what it is that we do would view it differently if they could see the same things we see, beyond the physical acts.

Do you mean as viewed from the warped minds that you have or otherwise?!

I'd say that this is all we need to know, folks. Just like our previous epic porn thread, nobody was able to establish any harm. From there we moved on to "there's clearly, self-evidently, something wrong with kinky people, and if you don't see that, there's something wrong with you." Frustrating, pointless and insulting.

 

[Southwind17]

I'd say that this is all we need to know, folks. Just like our previous epic porn thread, nobody was able to establish any harm. From there we moved on to "there's clearly, self-evidently, something wrong with kinky people, and if you don't see that, there's something wrong with you." Frustrating, pointless and insulting.

I might be misreading you porch, but I'm inclined to comment that "all we really need to know" is that when somebody jumps into a thread well after 700 posts, particularly one that has evolved and developed the way this one has, and seeks to draw a closing conclusion that's been eluding every other poster, they're highly likely to be way off the mark. On the other hand, they might have taken the time to read all of those 700+ posts and, through careful analysis, hit the nail on the head at the first strike. I honestly don't know which, if either, is the case in this instance, but I'd hazard a guess. I don't suppose you'll mind too much if I keep that particular opinion to myself, though, on this occasion, if that's OK.

 

[quadraginta]

I might be misreading you porch, but I'm inclined to comment that "all we really need to know" is that when somebody jumps into a thread well after 700 posts, particularly one that has evolved and developed the way this one has, and seeks to draw a closing conclusion that's been eluding every other poster, they're highly likely to be way off the mark. On the other hand, they might have taken the time to read all of those 700+ posts and, through careful analysis, hit the nail on the head at the first strike. I honestly don't know which, if either, is the case in this instance, but I'd hazard a guess. I don't suppose you'll mind too much if I keep that particular opinion to myself, though, on this occasion, if that's OK.

Frankly, his comment suggests to me that he actually had read all 735 posts.

 

[Whiplash]

Southwind17, you appear to think you have a moral right to tell other people how to behave. Why is that?

Ben, I understand completely where you are coming from.. but at the same time.. that mentality can be taken to the point where no single living soul on this planet has any right to ever suggest moral behavior to anyone else, ever, anywhere. We are all flawed and unworthy of doing so.

Yet we find places we can all agree (at least on some issues) and try to enforce them as best as we can. I can't imagine a world dominated by the moral relativistic mindset of no one being able to ever tell anyone else they were wrong, or immoral, or evil, or anything of the sort. Talk about free for all, anything goes pure chaos.

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

I dunno. Southwind (appears! I could be wrong) to be saying that objectifying people are wrong, and that we shouldn't.

Or something. Maybe he'll clarify my post.