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Iran Nuclear Agreement

"Richardson: A missile like that, you're not going to use it against a moving target like a fleet. If the fleet had a base, a dockyard within missile range, you could certainly fire at that. But in terms of Tel Aviv, I think you best you could say is that you might hope to hit central Tel Aviv. It would not be practical to say: 'We're going to hit the Israeli Ministry of Defense in Tel Aviv.' They don't have that kind of accuracy."
Yet.

Do you think that the advance of tech in general has made it harder, or easier, to harness a GPS guidance package to ... pretty much anything?

Not military quality sooper special GPS, but run of the mill GPS that you or I use in a car.

In rough terms:

With a ballistic missile, given the terminal phase being basically "falling down" at speeds that render the wind vector nearly moot, (absent anomalous winds) all you need to do to get the kind of accuracy that you need to hit the Israeli MoD is establish the delta between your globe model, WG 84 or whatever you are using, and then altitude corrections from that datum plane. X seconds before your last course correction and Y altitude, you correct for deviation from ideal track to damned near.

And you also launch more than one missile, if you really want to hit the MoD.

I think there are enough intelligent mathematicians in Iran to provide a large enough brain pool to figure that out.

This ain't quantum physics. Where the cost comes is in in getting reliability up to an acceptable percentage, and getting a high confidence factor in the PHit of the weapons system.

DR
 
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Do you think that the advance of tech in general has made it harder, or easier, to harness a GPS guidance package to ... pretty much anything?

Small problem for Iran: we can turn GPS off any time we want to. We can probably even do worse: make it read wrong. Do you really think Iran is going to trust their ballistic missile guidance to GPS?
 
Yet.

Do you think that the advance of tech in general has made it harder, or easier, to harness a GPS guidance package to ... pretty much anything?

Not military quality sooper special GPS, but run of the mill GPS that you or I use in a car.
As Zigurrat pointed out we can turn it off any time we like, or simply encrypt it so our military can use it and theirs can't.

I don't think Iran is stupid enough to use a GPS guided missile.
 
Responding to more of the standard CE foolishness here.

A dense minefield would make the Straits of Hormuz close to impassable.

Sunburn makes passage of the straits a higher risk, depending upon what you are sailing in, and who you are. Sunburn is a good missile, but it isn't magic.

Reality check for Dart Rotor: http://exiledonline.com/the-war-nerd-this-is-how-the-carriers-will-die/

Picture of American carrier sinking: http://exiledonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/uss_oriskany_sinking-450x384.jpg

Interesting article by the war nerd organized around a telling statement from the Navy:

The Chinese military has developed a ballistic missile, Dong Feng 21, specifically designed to kill US aircraft carriers: “Because the missile employs a complex guidance system, low radar signature and a maneuverability that makes its flight path unpredictable, the odds that it can evade tracking systems to reach its target are increased. It is estimated that the missile can travel at mach 10 and reach its maximum range of 2000km in less than 12 minutes.” That’s the US Naval Institute talking, remember. They’re understating the case when they say that, with speed, satellite guidance and maneuverability like that, “the odds that it can evade tracking systems to reach its target are increased.”

You know why that’s an understatement? Because of a short little sentence I found farther on in the article—and before you read that sentence, I want all you trusting Pentagon groupies to promise me that you’ll think hard about what it implies. Here’s the sentence: “Ships currently have no defense against a ballistic missile attack.”


So there you have it: large war ships anno 2009 are useless, even the US navy implicitly admits it. These carriers might have been effective against these single engine Japanese fruit flies like those in 1942 but today they are sitting ducks and financial bleeders.

Telluric nations - Thalassic nations 1 - 0
Russia................USA
China
Iran
 
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As Zigurrat pointed out we can turn it off any time we like, or simply encrypt it so our military can use it and theirs can't.

I don't think Iran is stupid enough to use a GPS guided missile.

DF-21A/CSS-5 Mod 2
The DF-21A was operational by 1996 and has improved accuracy, with both GPS and a radar-based terminal guidance system in a redesigned nose. It is thought to have a lower yield, around 90kt, but longer range (up to 2500 km).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DF-21#cite_note-5

This is interesting. I wonder if Wikipedia is right?
 
Hitting a mobile target with a ballistic missile is rather difficult. The war nerd seems to be ignoring this challenge completely. He's trying to argue from historical perspective, but there's no historical precedent for doing that. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it hasn't been done, because it's bloody hard. Unless China wants to load nukes onto those missiles, they've got to have some pretty fancy targeting and guidance, because between launch and impact, a carrier can move several kilometers.
 
DF-21A/CSS-5 Mod 2
The DF-21A was operational by 1996 and has improved accuracy, with both GPS and a radar-based terminal guidance system in a redesigned nose. It is thought to have a lower yield, around 90kt, but longer range (up to 2500 km).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DF-21#cite_note-5

This is interesting. I wonder if Wikipedia is right?
I don't see anything saying Iran has those? :confused:

And if the US is fighting a power that uses GPS to guide it's missiles those missiles will be quite ineffective.

And radar-guided missiles can be jammed.
 
“Ships currently have no defense against a ballistic missile attack.”

Funny. I can think of a fairly simple one: move.

ETA: and for the less simple, there's also the Phalanx systems, some of which are going to be backed up by SeaRAMs as well.

How's that for a reality check?
 
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Even Air Launched Cruise Missiles have a targeting problem to solve, and they tend to have active terminal homing.

Your fantasies are obviously fascinating to you, but the USS Oriskany hasn't been afloat for how many years?
At the end of the Cold War and the subsequent reduction of the U.S. Navy's active force, Oriskany was recognized as being obsolete and was struck from the Naval Vessel Register in 1989. Her hull was stripped of all equipment that could be reused or recycled. The ship's bell (removed during decommissioning in 1976) is now on display in Oriskany, New York, and various parts were scavenged to support the USS Hornet museum in Alameda, California and other Navy ship museums.

Oriskany received two battle stars for Korean War service and five for Vietnam War service.

Proposals were made in the early 1990s to refurbish ex-Oriskany and display her in Tokyo Bay as part of a planned "City of America" exhibit. Congressional legislation was initiated to transfer Oriskany, but the project failed due to lack of financing.

Oriskany was sold for scrap by the Defense Reutilization and Marketing Service on 9 September 1995 to Pegasus International, a start-up company at the former Mare Island Naval Shipyard in Vallejo, CA. The contractor towed the ship from Bremerton to Vallejo, but the contract was terminated for default on 30 July 1997 due to lack of progress. While berthed at Mare Island in rusted and decrepit condition, ex-Oriskany was used as a setting for the Robin Williams film, What Dreams May Come (1998) as part of the representation of Hell.

The Navy retook possession of the ship and after a few more years at the former Mare Island Navy Yard, the ship was towed in 1999 to the Maritime Administration's Beaumont Reserve Fleet in Beaumont, Texas, for storage pending availability of funding for its disposal.

Please, stop it with the stupid. My God, do you take special pills for this condition?

DR
 
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I don't see anything saying Iran has those? :confused:

And if the US is fighting a power that uses GPS to guide it's missiles those missiles will be quite ineffective.

And radar-guided missiles can be jammed.

Well, you said you didn't think Iran was stupid enough to use a GPS guided missile. I just put this up to see what you had to say about it cause I was curious why China would use one.

Then I saw this on the FAS website:
"With the addition of GPS targeting the [shahab 3] warhead accuracy is greatly enhanced"
http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/man/militarysumfolder/shahab-3.html
Seems corroborated here:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iran/shahab-3.htm

As for China, from what I can ascertain Chinese missiles make use of either GPS or the Beidou, which is an independent Chinese satellite guidance system they're setting up.

Here's an interesting note of the Chinese use of satellite guidance systems for missiles (if anyone thinks they're clever and points out that this is a cruise missile I'm gonna flip)

"The potential use of the American GPS system would render this system vulnerable to jamming of the unencrypted civil signal (CA code) from GPS satellites within view of the Chinese area of operations, or to local jamming and spoofing in the target area. Chinese cruise missiles could still find their targets using inertial navigation system (INS) technology, but without GPS updates they would be significantly less accurate.

It is likely that even if the US tried to deny GPS signals to China, the PLA’s cruise missiles could still function via the Russian GLONASS, or in the future the European GALILEO navigation signals. China is also developing its own “Compass Satellite Navigation System”, which would eventually comprise 5 Geostationary Earth Orbit (GEO) satellites and 30 medium Earth orbit satellites to provide a global cover."

http://www.sinodefence.com/strategic/missile/cruisemissile.asp

In Iran's case I'm guessing/hoping that Russia would also take steps to jam their non-military satellite signals in the event of an Iranian missile attack even assuming the Iranian missile could use the Russian network.

It does seem weird that Iran would put GPS in its missiles.
 
As Zigurrat pointed out we can turn it off any time we like, or simply encrypt it so our military can use it and theirs can't.

I don't think Iran is stupid enough to use a GPS guided missile.
I don't think you've looked at this deeply enough.

Think about this. GPS is used for a whole lot of stuff.

1. If used as a first strike, GPS is a viable application, particularly if nobody know that GPS is how you guide the weapon.

It's passive, not active.

2. So, first strike happens, someone guesses "they used GPS" and they turn GPS off. Didn't stop the strike, and flipping that switch just screwed over a whole lot of tactical capability with one flick of the switch, not to mention US ARTC. Flipping over to back up takes X time, and then ...

Not as easy to counter as you think, if their development of such a package remains their version of Top Secret or above.

DR
 
1. If used as a first strike, GPS is a viable application, particularly if nobody know that GPS is how you guide the weapon.

Yes. But is Iran willing to assume that "if"? And a weapon that is only useful in first strike mode and cannot be relied upon for retaliatory strikes is strategically crippled. Ballistic missile first strikes with conventional warheads would be bloody stupid for Iran to use (wasn't the argument that they have strategic value to provide disincentives to others to strike first?) because they would provoke a military response but wouldn't do much real damage, and nukes can probably get close enough with inertial guidance so GPS isn't much of a concern there.

2. So, first strike happens, someone guesses "they used GPS" and they turn GPS off. Didn't stop the strike, and flipping that switch just screwed over a whole lot of tactical capability with one flick of the switch, not to mention US ARTC.

You don't have to turn all of GPS off. The military and civilian signals are different, and the military signal can be encrypted. Turning off the civilian signal won't stop the military signal. And if the military has been smart about this, they don't even have to turn off the entire civilian signal, they can silence just the birds over Iran.

Lastly, of course, while GPS receivers are indeed quite common, none of the receivers on the civilian market are able to operate above about 60,000 ft and faster than 515 m/s. This makes them unsuitable for use in ballistic missiles. So Iran would need to develop their own GPS receivers. And, well, they aren't exactly known for their electronics industry.
 
Yes. But is Iran willing to assume that "if"?
I don't know.
And a weapon that is only useful in first strike mode and cannot be relied upon for retaliatory strikes is strategically crippled.
But politically useful.
Ballistic missile first strikes with conventional warheads would be bloody stupid for Iran to use (wasn't the argument that they have strategic value to provide disincentives to others to strike first?) because they would provoke a military response but wouldn't do much real damage, and nukes can probably get close enough with inertial guidance so GPS isn't much of a concern there.
A better point, to be sure.
You don't have to turn all of GPS off.
The impact, globally, on all users of GPS is non trivial if you "just shut it off." It's all pervasive.
The military and civilian signals are different, and the military signal can be encrypted. Turning off the civilian signal won't stop the military signal. And if the military has been smart about this, they don't even have to turn off the entire civilian signal, they can silence just the birds over Iran.
Only if you know, suspect, that is how the guidance at the TARGET end is going, which means turn off the GPS over Israel in the scenario I mention, an attack on Israel's MoD.

Once again, the terminal guidance of a falling body, see also GPS guidance for a 2000 lb bomb (velocity vector a bit different, of course) is all that GPS is needed for in the above strike package. Even if GPS fails, or gets no signal, the missile still hits sorta close.
Lastly, of course, while GPS receivers are indeed quite common, none of the receivers on the civilian market are able to operate above about 60,000 ft and faster than 515 m/s. This makes them unsuitable for use in ballistic missiles. So Iran would need to develop their own GPS receivers. And, well, they aren't exactly known for their electronics industry.
Zigg, look at what the GPS guidance is supposed to achieve. They only need to receive the signal as I described, in end game, within the parameters you so rightly point out. If you think the end game, roughly a vertical track, with little lateral displacement, is the same problem as moving 515 m/s laterally, OK, maybe it's a bit trickier than my simple outline investigates. Your average F-16 dropping a GPS weapon puts the ballistic weapon into a basket by flying to a "spot" in three dimensional space. Your TBM, Scud, for example, does likewise. As I have not gone all stubby penci on this, it may well be that the number of seconds remaining in the end game from roughly 60K feet is exceeded by the seconds and fractions needed to get that last correction in, at that terminal downward velocity, with the fins/airfoils at supersonic speed. I haven't field tested this, of course.

Getting to the end game position remains the function of all the INS and aiming in the first place. The point wasn't to guide missile from launch to hit with GPS. That isn't necessary. You adapt an already extant tech to a falling body.

NO, you won't get the extra cheese accuracy of US mil GPS, when finely tuned, whose CEP is not gonna say it's nobody's business wonderful.

Look at my scenario, and look at the CEP you need.

I also nowhere stipulated this as a one trick pony, but to be crystal clear, as an adjunct capability to present capability.

It need not be gold plated to work. Foxbat taught us that.

Also note: using something other than GPS, US ballistic missile warheads, in the seventies, could reasonably expect to land in about a tennis court sized target (OK, two together).

DR
 
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Zigg, look at what the GPS guidance is supposed to achieve. They only need to receive the signal as I described, in end game, within the parameters you so rightly point out. If you think the end game, roughly a vertical track, with little lateral displacement, is the same problem as moving 515 m/s laterally, OK, maybe it's a bit trickier than my simple outline investigates.

That 515 m/s isn't a limit on lateral velocity, it's a limit on velocity. Any velocity. The limits were chosen specifically to prevent the use of civilian GPS receivers in ballistic missiles. Since I think the designers knew what they were doing, I suspect those limits will achieve that purpose.

Also note: using something other than GPS, US ballistic missile warheads, in the seventies, could reasonably expect to land in about a tennis court sized target (OK, two together).

And 1940's US tech could produce a nuclear weapon from scratch. Iran can't match 1940's US technology on their own, they had to buy stolen designs. And the F-14's which they have are also 1970's designs, but they can't make replacement parts for them either. Why would you expect them to be able to match us in ballistic missile technology when they can't match us in anything else?
 
Hitting a mobile target with a ballistic missile is rather difficult. The war nerd seems to be ignoring this challenge completely. He's trying to argue from historical perspective, but there's no historical precedent for doing that. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it hasn't been done, because it's bloody hard. Unless China wants to load nukes onto those missiles, they've got to have some pretty fancy targeting and guidance, because between launch and impact, a carrier can move several kilometers.

Uh, moving target? That's 30 miles/hour against Mach 3-10! Ziggurat seems to think that elephants have never been shot because there are 'mobile'. :D

And no historical precedent?! I guess that around 1980 most of you were probably busy filling diapers but there was a little intermezzo called the Falkland war. There you had first world nation Britain trying to take back some silly rocks from a second world country, Argentina, whose ruling generals had decided to invade their way out of internal economic mess. The deciding point of who won that war was about the question whether Argentina could yes/no lay their hands on a few more of those fancy frenchy exocet rockets. That was the central issue at the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_War

On 4 May, two days after the sinking of Belgrano, the British lost the Type 42 destroyer HMS Sheffield to fire following an Exocet missile strike. Sheffield had been ordered forward with two other Type 42s to provide a long-range radar and medium-high altitude missile picket far from the British carriers. She was struck amidships, with devastating effect, ultimately killing 20 crew members and severely injuring 24 others. The ship was abandoned several hours later, gutted and deformed by the fires that continued to burn for six more days. She finally sank outside the Maritime Exclusion Zone on 10 May.

Much more damage was done:

At sea, the paucity of the British ships' anti-aircraft defences was demonstrated in the sinking of HMS Ardent on 21 May, HMS Antelope on 21 May, and MV Atlantic Conveyor (struck by two AM39 Exocets) on 25 May along with a vital cargo of helicopters, runway-building equipment and tents. The loss of all but one of the Chinook helicopters being carried by the Atlantic Conveyor was a severe blow from a logistics perspective. Also lost on this day was HMS Coventry, a sister to HMS Sheffield, whilst in company with HMS Broadsword after being ordered to act as decoy to draw away Argentinian aircraft from other ships at San Carlos Bay.[41] HMS Argonaut and HMS Brilliant were badly damaged.

I remember vividly that the Argentinians desperately tried to buy more of these exocet rockets but they were prevented to do so by application of pressure by Western governments to potential sellers. Had they succeeded the Brits could have tried to continue to 'project power' from the bottom of the sea.

That was 1980. That was Argentina against Britain. Now we are almost in 2010. We have Mach 3-10 missiles. There is only one conclusion that even the US Navy has drawn: ships are indefensible. Ships, because of their costs are an asset to the enemy because they tie useful resources in useless sitting ducks. The US has 12 of these floating graveyards with, how many again, 5,000 sailors per piece? My friendly advice: scuttle the junk in the Atlantic, make cruise ships out of them, or post modern floating apartment buildings, shopping malls or sell them to China, anything. But get rid of them. They are useless. The role of the classical navy is over. Too big, too slow, too vulnerable.
 
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Uh, moving target? That's 30 miles/hour against Mach 3-10!

Speed differentials are irrelevant. You can probably throw a ball a lot faster than I can run, but if I'm thirty yards away, you won't be able to hit me. Between launch and impact of a ballistic missile, a carrier can move several kilometers. The missile would need a way to track these movements and perform appropriate course corrections throughout its flight in order to hit the carrier. That is not an easy task, and nobody has done it yet.

Ziggurat seems to think that elephants have never been shot because there are mobile. :D

Elephants are not typically shot from ranges where they move tens of body lengths between when the gun is fired and the bullet strikes.

And no historical precedent?!

Yes, no historical precedent for the use of ballistic missiles against moving targets.

I guess that around 1980 most of you were probably busy filling diapers but there was a little intermezzo called the Falkland war.

Which involved no ballistic missiles used against warships. The Exocet is not a ballistic missile. And contrary to your link's claim, neither is the Harpoon.

But get rid of them. They are useless. The role of the classical navy is over. Too big, too slow, too vulnerable.

You are rather demonstrably wrong. They have proven themselves quite useful over the last few decades, and will likely continue to do so. While their use against an enemy like China may be somewhat constrained, China is far from the only security concern we have.
 
More on the exocet: Mach 1, range up to 180km.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exocet

Interesting detail: the warhead of the eocet that hit the HMS SHeffield did not even go off, it was just the kinetic energy:

The Exocet that struck the HMS Sheffield impacted on the second deck, 2.4 metres (7 ft 10 in) above the waterline and penetrated deeply into the Sheffield's control room,[6] near to the forward engine room, cracking the hull open roughly 1.2 by 3 metres (3.9 ft × 9.8 ft). It appears that the warhead did not explode.

It's a recurring pattern in the history of warfare, everybody is preparing for a war just like the last one. Carriers were usefull during the battle of Midway, now they are a bad joke.
 
Speed differentials are irrelevant. You can probably throw a ball a lot faster than I can run, but if I'm thirty yards away, you won't be able to hit me.

That's an irrelevant comparisson because my ball is not equiped with radar to follow the moving target. According to your 'logic' warplanes have no chance of hitting each other because of their high speed. We all know better than that, take for instance flight93 or the KAL-airliner. Even the exocet developed as early as 1975 had an active radar guidance system.


Between launch and impact of a ballistic missile, a carrier can move several kilometers. The missile would need a way to track these movements and perform appropriate course corrections throughout its flight in order to hit the carrier. That is not an easy task, and nobody has done it yet.

Huh, 'ballistic'? You mean thingies that operate under F=M*g and s= g*t*t/2, these nice parabolic curves, without adaptive control? I just quoted extensively from the Falklands war where scores of ships were sunk. You seem the think that we still live in the times of the canons of Navarone or the Dicke Bertha.

Elephants are not typically shot from ranges where they move tens of body lengths between when the gun is fired and the bullet strikes.

There are rifles with which one can shoot an elephant from a distance of several kilometers with 100% change of a hit.

Yes, no historical precedent for the use of ballistic missiles against moving targets.

Poor Nelson probably would be disagreeing with you but lucky for you he is dead now. Because of something ballistic. (I had a discussion with a fine British officer a few years ago while visiting Southhampton and the HMS Victory who told me that dead Nelson had been conserved during the trip home from Trafalgar in a barrel of whiskey. During the long journey Nelson had become 'muffy' as the officier put it and had started to expand causing the lid of the barrel to break and the remains of Nelson to pop up from the barrel causing the crew to believe that Nelson had been rising from the dead :D)

You are rather demonstrably wrong. They have proven themselves quite useful over the last few decades, and will likely continue to do so. While their use against an enemy like China may be somewhat constrained, China is far from the only security concern we have.

No they have not, because the US has a preference to pick a fight with third rate adversaries. Against a serious enemy like China, Russia or Iran (that has Russian Sunburn rockets) the Navy will experience what 'Gary Brecher' has predicted: carrier going belly up in the straight of Hormuz.

"You just sunk my carrier."
 
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That's an irrelevant comparisson because my ball is not equiped with radar to follow the moving target. According to your 'logic' warplanes have no chance of hitting each other because of their high speed. We all know better than that, take for instance flight93 or the KAL-airliner. Even the exocet developed as early as 1975 had an active radar guidance system.
Which is why it's not a ballistic missile.

Huh, 'ballistic'? You mean thingies that operate under F=M*g and s= g*t*t/2, these nice parabolic curves, without adaptive control? I just quoted extensively from the Falklands war where scores of ships were sunk. You seem the think that we still live in the times of the canons of Navarone or the Dicke Bertha.
Scores of ships were sunk by non-ballistic missiles.

Ballistic missiles are a specific category of missile that are aimed, launched, and guided on a ballistic trajectory towards a specific set of coordinates. They do not track targets, they do not correct their course in response to a moving target.

Non-ballistic missiles, conventionally known as "guided missiles" are a totally different category of missile. Stop confusing the two, and stop using guided missiles to support your claims about ballistic missiles.
 

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