Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

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Waterman, what a positive response to your first post, you must be proud. Bringing a logical interpritation to the actions of a hand full of simple souls from 2000 years ago to discredit something that that you know has no defendable base except faith. Like shooting ducks in a barrel, you can't fail.

I don't deny that i was going for the realtively easy shot. I have been lurking for a couple years and had never seen anyone make the follow up comment to this effect, I didn't know if it was because it was a new thought (nah probably not) or if it was something that could be easily dismantled.

Consider the time and place of the events. The Romans are hunting Christians, messiah's are arriving and departing like a Chinese meal and your leader has been crucified. After his death in this climate of failure could not the faithful consider that all they had seen was a conjurers tricks, I would. It is the resurrection and the appearance that Christ made to his most faithful that inspired the belief in them of the validity of his words, not the miracles.
Why did Jesus appear to his best mates, because he understood the frailty of humanity, and that frailty is based upon mortality, and the victory over mortality is the only salient example of a god that humanity would accept then and now as proof positive of a power greater than us.

I see this as a story element in what would be a compelling scene in the context of the story they were trying to convey and set them apart from all the other 'messiahs' you note above. It would be a boring scene of Jesus showed up freshly resurrected and he was greeted by "Hey, it's about time, what kept you? Did you remember to get the chips?"

The texts are about as valid as Wiki will be in 2000 years, who wrote it, did they have an agenda, can I believe it. At the end of the day texts and forced indoctrination do not sway your thoughts, as you make up your own mind, but you must consider there are possible alternatives to any thoughts where the defying of logic and physics is primarily involved in the arguement. Such as god and utility bills.

I don't think that god can be proven or disproven by logic or physics. Those who choose to believe under those stipulations is fine by me. However in the context of this thread based on the OP the discussion focused around providing some sort of proof.

Utility Bills... no, these are DEFINIATELY from a more sinister source.
 
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"Consider the time and place of the events. The Romans are hunting Christians, messiah's are arriving and departing like a Chinese meal and your leader has been crucified. After his death in this climate of failure could not the faithful consider that all they had seen was a conjurers tricks, I would."

I simply see no accolade in one guess over another, especially when a scenario as I presented would come to you as a opposing position to your own thought direction, or perhaps that is the only thought that Waterman had on the subject, the most obvious one to suit his position

I have pondered over this a lot over the years and had many thoughts on the topic. Christianity needed to distinguish how they were different and offer hope for everlasting life. The story of the resurrection demonstrated that this was possible. However, to consider the statements above as histrically correct descritpion of the scene and not elements for the purpose of story telling you would have to accept that the Bible is (at least as far as that scene goes) an accurate representation of the events. But then you are in to the circular argument cycle.
 
No it is a valid though obvious observation, and he has a right to express it. My point is why bother expressing it, as my contrary supposition is as relevant if you consider the enviroment of the faithful at the time of Christs death.
This is my alternate supposition to Waterman's. I would not have expressed it as a view given that the reply could have been as Watermans was, a very valid possibility, and some saw great merit in it because it suited their biases, not because of the quality of the thought.

Waterman welcome to JREF:)

Thank you, I did not expect to post here and come away unchallenged. In fact I would have been a little disappointed. I am not a great scholar or historian. I am a learner and seeker of provisional truths, if I can be shown to be mistaken in my thinking I am willing to revise my position.
 
I'm convinced by all the evidence I've presented in my 1200 posts in this thread as well as other evidence I've presented in other threads. For example my thread "The 25 fulfilled prophecies of Isaiah 53". If your truly not convinced, then so be it. But there is plenty of evidence there for Christians to believe, and nothing any skeptic has said in this or any other thread has changed my mind.

So, after 1200+ posts in a thread titled "Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth," the evidence you have presented has convinced you of something you already believed. Good work! And what an exacting standard of evidence you have.
 
I don't need a miracle to believe Jesus in the New Testament fits these verses.

From Isaiah Chapter 53

Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

Does not apply to Jesus, according to the common Christian reading, Jesus WAS God, so, he had no need to believe HIS OWN message or to see his own arm revealed to him.

He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.

Not really specific, everybody do grow up (including in a more metaphorical sense, when referring to a people). In fact, the more specific aspects do not apply well to Jesus, if you refer to John Crossan's excavating Jesus; Nazareth was "ideally situated (...) atop the Nazareth range, which separates the Nahal Zippori and Beit Netofah valley to the North from the much larger Jezreel valley to the south. The later was vast and fertile plain."


1 He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

2 He was despised and rejected by men,

Does not apply well to Jesus, not only there is no mention of him being unattractive anywhere in the Bible but the gospels do have plenty of account of him attracting people to him. Gathering crowd and attracting follower and being appreciated and popular among the populace rather than 'despised and rejected'.
There is account of people getting excited when he walks into their town and gathering around to listen to him and fighting for the honour of feeding him and giving him shelter.
The only people that have a problem with Jesus really seem to be a small minority with an agenda.


3 a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Does not apply well either. Sure, Jesus end of life was difficult and painful, but the expression 'familiar with suffering' implies a long series of sufferings (and sorrows) through his life rather than one violent episode at the end.
There is no evidence of that in the gospels.


4 Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Once again, it does not apply well as the Jesus from the Gospels was rather popular and esteemed indeed.


5 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,

Maybe, I guess, although Jesus' sacrifice is considered to be about sins rather than 'infirmities and sorrows', but I am feeling generous.


6 yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

Nope; does not apply, Jesus was never seen as being stricken by God. At worst, there is a period of doubt... for three days but, even then, he was not perceived as being stricken by God but martyred for him.


7 But he was pierced for our transgressions,

I'll give that to you too, although, one has to consider the term 'piercing' as purely metaphorical as the actual martyrdom was the crucifixion, not 'piercing'.


8 he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

Yep; he was martyred for our sins


9 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

Ok; our sins, his martyrdom, we get it already


10 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;

Nope; does not match. Jesus did speak up, we even have two separate and conflicting list of what he said.


11 he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,

Still about Jesus being the sacrificial lamb


12 and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

As mentioned, it does not fit as Jesus DID speak up.


13 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.

Yes; Jesus was innocent and got scarified for our sins.



14 And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.

Does not fit, because, what descendants?


15 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,

16 and with the rich in his death,

The closest from an actual prediction.
Of course, one has to mention the unlikely and convoluted series of event that lead to this event taking place. In fact, many have seen this part of the Gospels as being fictional, added there a posteriori, presumably to do some post-hoc matching with this particular prophecy.
After all, Jesus was alone in his tomb and not 'with the rich' and he never was dead anyway.
Most likely, this verse is a metaphor for the sacrificial lamb dying in shame and being vindicated by God after his death, a theme that become prevalent later in the prophecy.


17 though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

Again: Jesus was innocent and got martyred.


18 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,

Again: Jesus was innocent and got martyred.


19 he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

Does not fit, again, no descendant. And it is quite clear, here, that descendant is not mean in a metaphorical way.


20 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;

Does not fit, this talk about somebody being vindicated and rewarded AFTER his death.
But Jesus is God; he knew of the plan all along. Also, he did not receive anything he already had from all eternity.


21 by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

Again: Jesus was innocent and got martyred.


22 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,

23 and he will divide the spoils with the strong,

Does not fit, once again, very clearly, the prophecy is about God rewarding a humble SERVANT after his death, giving him riches and honour he did not have before. Not about God self-pleasuring.


24 because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.

25 For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

Again: Jesus was innocent and got martyred.



So; if you make the total, there is 25 statements in the prophecies.
12 do not match very well at all, in fact they are plainly contradicted by the Gospels account.
1 is less clear but does not seem to match very well either but in the most general sense.
12 do sort of match.


Of course, this thing is quite repetitive, so if we only count the same repeated statements once:
We have 6 statements that are wrong, the same one statement that is too vague to warrant consideration.
And TWO statements that seem to match: Jesus will be the sacrificial lamb and there will a game of musical-tomb played.

Even then, of this two statements, one his of dubious historicity and the second one is a reference to an old Jewish Religious concept, one that would have been very familiar to the disciple of Jesus.

So, what seems the most parsimonious explanation, that a prophet would be able to foresee Jesus, through a distance of 8 centuries, or that the disciples, trying to make sense of Jesus' death, would decide to read into the concept of a well established Jewish Religious tradition?
 
So, He {the apostle Peter} gets to have personal evidence, but I don't?

You must have missed this post.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5246982#post5246982


I'm supposed to believe the bible in all this. The same book which was decided upon by committee?

So you would have the official book of the Church of Jesus Christ to include the writings of every Tom, Dick, and Harry, who decided to write about Christ?
 
Does not apply to Jesus, according to the common Christian reading, Jesus WAS God, so, he had no need to believe HIS OWN message or to see his own arm revealed to him.



Not really specific, everybody do grow up (including in a more metaphorical sense, when referring to a people). In fact, the more specific aspects do not apply well to Jesus, if you refer to John Crossan's excavating Jesus; Nazareth was "ideally situated (...) atop the Nazareth range, which separates the Nahal Zippori and Beit Netofah valley to the North from the much larger Jezreel valley to the south. The later was vast and fertile plain."...

<snip>

If anyone wants an explanation of each of the 25 points in Isaiah 53, you can read the book that is listed in this post:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4704978#post4704978

Also at the end of post #1 in the above link is an explanation of some of them. I'm finished talking about Isaiah and how his writings pertain to Jesus in the NT. The bottom line is that some Jews (including Jay Sekulow who has argued several cases before the Supreme Court) have been converted because of Isaiah chapter 53.
 
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Oh. you mean:
The book cited in post 1 (page 322) responds to your point:

"Does Jesus have to appear to every person in the world to make his claims credible? Why would he? We don't have to witness every event firsthand in order to believe the event actually occurred. In fact, it would be practically impossible to do so.
So god is limited. Excellent argument...against god


We believe the testimony of others if they are trustworthy individuals {for example Luke, called one of the world's greatest historians},
who made up the census story...
and especially if their testimony is corroborated by other data. This is exactly the case with the testimony of the New Testament writers.
....well there's a problem with this point, isn't there? (i'll get to it)

...if God were too overt because of frequent miraculous displays, then he might, in some cases infringe on our free will.
Yet, this didn't stop him from proving himself to the appostles? Wasn't god worried about thier free will as well?



So you would have the official book of the Church of Jesus Christ to include the writings of every Tom, Dick, and Harry, who decided to write about Christ?
We already have a Matthew mark, luke and john..

There are many other gospels. many of which don't agree with eachother. (worse than the 4 canonical gospels).

Indeed, the existence of these contradictory sources argue against that whole corroboration argument you made above.
and seeing how the gospels are written by the apostles they are attributed to, the argument of corroboration is meaningless. Afterall, they coudl be corroborating on the same story, much in the same way you ask 5 people to write a summary of Star Wars. You'll get corroborating stories, but that's not proof they are telling a true story.
 
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The bottom line is that some Jews (including Jay Sekulow who has argued several cases before the Supreme Court) have been converted because of Isaiah chapter 53.
The bottom line is you have been told lots and lots of times that fallacious appeals to authority, mean nothing yet you still make them time and time again.

Why do you think they are important?
Do you think people are impressed by them?
Why continue to make them?
 
If anyone wants an explanation of each of the 25 points in Isaiah 53, you can read the book that is listed in this post:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4704978#post4704978

Also at the end of post #1 in the above link is an explanation of some of them. I'm finished talking about Isaiah and how his writings pertain to Jesus in the NT. The bottom line is that some Jews (including Jay Sekulow who has argued several cases before the Supreme Court) have been converted because of Isaiah chapter 53.

Well, I'm convinced. Thanks Doc. You're the best evidencer ever!
 
If anyone wants an explanation of each of the 25 points in Isaiah 53, you can read the book that is listed in this post:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4704978#post4704978

Also at the end of post #1 in the above link is an explanation of some of them. I'm finished talking about Isaiah and how his writings pertain to Jesus in the NT. The bottom line is that some Jews (including Jay Sekulow who has argued several cases before the Supreme Court) have been converted because of Isaiah chapter 53.


Well; you were the one that brought up the alleged prophecy.

Also, there are far fewer Jews that converted due to Isaiah 53 than there were Christians abandoning Religion due to the contradictions in the Bible.
 
No, the writings of every Tom, Dick, and Harry who wrote about Christ were not included in the Bible. But Joobz seems to imply that they should have been.


But the writings of every Tom, Dickus and Harry who wrote about Christ ARE included in the Bible. If their writings were to appear OUTSIDE of the Bible, then that MIGHT be evidence that the New Testament writers were telling the truth.

That would be a step up on what's been presented in your few dozen posts to date.
 
The name 'Jesus' actually means, ''god saves''. His name if this character ever really existed was Yeshua, or Joshua. A very popular name in the first century.

Amb, as you probably noted I have kept away from the etherial/divine Christ, instead busying myself with the "did this historic character really exist" which I believe is a given even to most atheists.
 
Amb, as you probably noted I have kept away from the etherial/divine Christ, instead busying myself with the "did this historic character really exist" which I believe is a given even to most atheists.
Which historic Yeshua are you talking about?
 
Thank you, I did not expect to post here and come away unchallenged.

Greetings Waterman, like yourself I am a newbie and just feeling my way around the new schoolyard. As you can see my negative response to your post certainly drew flak from the other guys and girls, so you were well defended in your absence and I have been your only detractor...I think that is a positive start and hope to debate or concur with you into the future.

PS. X My first attempt at multi posting failed, I will work it out eventually...thanks.
 
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