Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[paximperium]

Give me a break Bob, all laws that evolved from a Muslim/Judeo/Christian Abrahamic foundation (and thoe societies are the ones you mentioned) started with the ten commandments at their base as their guide to anti social behaviour.

You forgot something.

Iran, Libya, Saudi Arabia etc. most definitely agree with the ten commandments including the part involving killing apostate, blasphemers and cutting the hands off thieves and stoning adulterers.

 

[paximperium]

If someone was to tell me that Alexander the Great rose from the dead, walked on water and was going to come back to earth sometime again, I'd call BS on that as well.

Being real doesn't mean that all stories about that person are real.

Did George washington Chop down a cherry tree?
\

I can believe that some Jewish rabbi named Yeshuah ben Joseph existed and created a love cult that became Christianity. All that other nonsense, no.

 

[sonofgloin]

Well I see Callisthenes is reported to have written about Alexander the Great but all his works have perished. You demand contemporary evidence for Jesus, but then rely on perished works for Alexander the Great.

Doc an excellent point, and miraculously the point I have been trying to bring to the attention of theists and the atheists, the agnostics are still pondering. At the end the subject is faith and that is decided individually. We can not positively or negatively discriminate on the evidence of texts altered, abridged, and manipulated by the hand of man over the past 2000 years. But that they exist is an indicator to a core truth.

 

[joobz]

I can believe that some Jewish rabbi named Yeshuah ben Joseph existed and created a love cult that became Christianity. All that other nonsense, no.

More of a doomsday cult, but I agree.

 

[paximperium]

Doc an excellent point, and miraculously the point I have been trying to bring to the attention of theists and the atheists, the agnostics are still pondering. At the end the subject is faith and that is decided individually. We can not positively or negatively discriminate on the evidence of texts altered, abridged, and manipulated by the hand of man over the past 2000 years.

So why prop up faith with lies and a facade of rationality when in fact it is basically irrational nonsense? I guess even theist are embarrassed by their "faith".

But that they exist is an indicator to a core truth.

No.

 

[Paulhoff]

“Boil thy water before thou drink it.” Now there would be a commandment ahead of its time.

“Cook thy pork till the color of blood no longer shows”, another good one.

“Take a bath before people flee thy presents”, I like that one.

Paul



Not taking a wooden nickle was going to far.

 

[Hokulele]

Your argument would make sense if I said the number of sales of a book is evidence of the truth of that book or the number of posts in a thread is evidence of the truth of that thread. But I have never said that. Thus, Straw Man.

Then why do you keep bringing up the the number of copies of the bible? You have made reference to this whenever someone asks you for evidence. Are you saying that this isn't evidence, just random chatter?

Yes, but Heaven's Gate did not result in the greatest selling book in the History of the world like the Bible is. and Heaven's Gate founder did not have 42 or 43 presidents attend worships services in honor of its founder or have someone like Thomas Jefferson say it has produced the greatest moral teachings the world has ever known. And I would assume its founder's grave or ashes are accounted for. And its founders birthday did not affect the calender (e.g. B.C. -- a.d.)

I said:

Yes, but Heaven's Gate did not result in the greatest selling book in the History of the world like the Bible is. and Heaven's Gate founder did not have 42 or 43 presidents attend worships services in honor of its founder or have someone like Thomas Jefferson say it has produced the greatest moral teachings the world has ever known. And I would assume its founder's grave or ashes are accounted for. And its founders birthday did not affect the calender (e.g. B.C. -- a.d.)

From Wiki's article on the "Best Selling Books"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_books..

No, it wasn't it was the Bible.

<snip>

-the Bible is the greatest selling book of all time is a fact.

<snip>

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Doc an excellent point, and miraculously the point I have been trying to bring to the attention of theists and the atheists, the agnostics are still pondering. At the end the subject is faith and that is decided individually. We can not positively or negatively discriminate on the evidence of texts altered, abridged, and manipulated by the hand of man over the past 2000 years. But that they exist is an indicator to a core truth.

Hmm... It would appear you are a bit confused. See, Doc is the one trying to pass The Bible off as accurate


ETA: As to age vs truth, Beowulf is almost as old as The Bible. Does the fact that it survives mean that it's true? What about The Illiad and The Odyssey, (eta: ) which are both older than The Bible?

 

[sonofgloin]

So, let me repeat, do you have any actual disagreement with Waterman's post? Is there an area of "increased complexity" that would invalidate the observation? If not, then doesn't that explain WHY people complemented his post? Especially given he is a new member here?

No it is a valid though obvious observation, and he has a right to express it. My point is why bother expressing it, as my contrary supposition is as relevant if you consider the enviroment of the faithful at the time of Christs death.
This is my alternate supposition to Waterman's. I would not have expressed it as a view given that the reply could have been as Watermans was, a very valid possibility, and some saw great merit in it because it suited their biases, not because of the quality of the thought.

Waterman welcome to JREF

Consider the time and place of the events. The Romans are hunting Christians, messiah's are arriving and departing like a Chinese meal and your leader has been crucified. After his death in this climate of failure could not the faithful consider that all they had seen was a conjurers tricks, I would. It is the resurrection and the appearance that Christ made to his most faithful that inspired the belief in them of the validity of his words, not the miracles.

 

[Elizabeth I]

Your argument would make sense if I said the number of sales of a book is evidence of the truth of that book or the number of posts in a thread is evidence of the truth of that thread. But I have never said that. Thus, Straw Man.

Hmmm...haven't you often used the Bible as "the bestselling book in the world" as "evidence" that it's true?

 

[sonofgloin]

I've read several of them.
So which are first hand accounts again? Who are these contemporaries again? Who mentions Jesus and his resurrection explicitly and not about those Christian cultists and their nonsense beliefs?

Pax, I did not mention"first hand accounts or contemporaries" I did not mention an account of the death and reserection, these things do not exist. The guy had a core following of 12, and perhaps 70 extended. I hardly think his name was going to appear regularly in the Judea Times.

Perhaps you should get down to a library and find those names yourself. You may have a hard time since they don't exist even in your Bible.

Pax, it's everbody's bible, and it's every body's choice to follow the teachings within or not. I have no particular affinity with the fashioned texts the church has passed onto us, but I do not dicredit it all because of it's obvious flaws. If it stems from fact, I know one fact that that taints it, and that is that it was written into hard copy by the hand of man.

Edit: Don't think this nonsense, misquotes and lies have never been tried before. Its always amusing how theist have to use false factoids and lies to prop up their weak faith.

Well I may as well pack up and look for other innocent lambs to indoctrinate, your too strong willed for me.....but before I go could you please email me your address, the cult likes to send mailouts.

 

[sonofgloin]

Sorry not to have been more explicit, sonofgloin.
I meant during those three days between the cruxifition and the resurrection.

Pakeha, there is none, nothing was transcribed at the time, all texts are after the event. Though the narratives do say that the Christians went into hiding, remember one denied Christ to the roman soldiers three times.

 

[joobz]

No it is a valid though obvious observation, and he has a right to express it. My point is why bother expressing it, as my contrary supposition is as relevant if you consider the enviroment of the faithful at the time of Christs death.

Your "contrary argument" doesn't invalidate the point. the surrounding climate should not matter to god. he should be able to prove himself regardless. The fact that the miracles in the bible are easily confused with conjurer tricks only acts as a exclamation point to the argument. Why should we believe? Beyond the "magic", there are only a handful of good ideas contained in the story of jesus. Including the care for eachother, questioning of established religious authorities, care for those who society marginalized. Those are good ideas. But that's not enough to prove divinity. Nor is it unique.

 

[sonofgloin]

That leaves don't lie, steal or kill. Well Duh! Any healthy/surviving society worked out these out ages ago and didn't need their neighbourhood invisible magic-man in the sky to spell it out for them.

Well Duh?...... The point being that the things we would not want visited upon us from other humans had been identified in all the worlds major religions texts and enforced by the religion and the society of the times. Later these basic tenets were the basis for defining the laws. Humanity reverts to primalism very quickly, blood fueds went for generations in many parts of the world where the law is not strong, death is the easiest solution, and we practice it. The healthy society you mention would deteriorate to a "every man for themselves" credo if food was with held for a couple of months. We need to associate amicably for society to prosper, but it is not in our natures, we primarily cover our own asses, we need laws.

The ten commandments are like the sermon on the mount. Sounds pretty and useful and everyone points at them when asked about why their religion is good, but when examined half of it turns out to be utterly useless.

Given that both those texts renowned for their virtue and base truth on how we should interact, your view is refreshing and challenging

 

[sonofgloin]

So again, what do the first five have to do with laws.
Paul

Absolutely nothing, but the stealing, lying, and murdering in the couple left cover a lot of ground. Do you not see a worth in them?

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Absolutely nothing, but the stealing, lying, and murdering in the couple left cover a lot of ground. Do you not see a worth in them?

Because we see a value in keeping other members of our society alive, we must accept that the Ten Commandments are the source of that morality?

 

[sonofgloin]

How do you define adultery?

Something that should happen to someone else perhaps.

 

[Hokulele]

Absolutely nothing, but the stealing, lying, and murdering in the couple left cover a lot of ground. Do you not see a worth in them?

Not if it means allowing a good deal of undesirable behavior and outlawing a bunch of harmless behavior.

 

[sonofgloin]

Give me a break sonofgloin, all the Ten Commandments evolved from a Egyptian/Canaanite/Babylonian/Greek Foundation started with the "golden rule" at their base as their guide to anti-social behavior.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity

I don't disagree, I said all religions had similar social caveats, and the extension of those caveats into common law shows the validity of them. Pax most Christian holidays are borrowed from the pagans, are you going to throw that in as well.

 

[joobz]

Actually, I propose that we can cut these further. #10 is thought crime and I refuse point-blank to be held accountable for my thoughts. #5 and #7 are a little problematic. Adulterers are clearly scum in the majority of cases but is it illegal? Dishonoring parents - definition please? I do not do everything my parents tell me to, I am very critical of their occasional foolishness when it happens and if I felt they were being unreasonable, then they can go jump - they don't get a special pass because they're related to me.

That leaves don't lie, steal or kill. Well Duh! Any healthy/surviving society worked out these out ages ago and didn't need their neighbourhood invisible magic-man in the sky to spell it out for them. The ten commandments are like the sermon on the mount. Sounds pretty and useful and everyone points at them when asked about why their religion is good, but when examined half of it turns out to be utterly useless.


Btw, no-one is demanding that I believe in Alexander the Great or burn forever, or am immoral because I don't believe in him, or passing laws based on him. If they did, then they'd d*mn well better pony up the evidence, and it'd better be good. Until then I don't care if Alexander the Great was real. Also you did it wrong, this is the Julius Caesar/Socrates b*llcr*p argument, not the Alexander b*llcr*p argument.

Can't have a discussion of truncating the 10 commandments without mentioning this.

WARNING NAUGHTY LANGUAGE: