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Is Anorexia really a disease?

Not trying to insult, trying to get you to go back and read those posts you skipped that showed you that you were wrong. There are people that use their handicaps as excuses for not doing anything to improve their lives - but that doesn't mean the handicap itself doesn't exist or is not serious. You started out with the view that because you know someone that uses it as an excuse then all it is, is an excuse and not a valid disorder/disease. When shown in many different ways that it IS a valid disorder/disease you come back and say you think it's just an excuse, as if no one had posted since your opening. Did you expect people to respond to that with RESPECT?
I'm severely autistic, Turner Syndrome, and a few other minor genetic difficulties that made the doctors say I wouldn't survive being born, wouldn't live past 12, wouldn't live past 20, etc. I'm still here. I hide in my forest and when people ask why I tell them - not as an excuse, but as an explanation. From your point of view (guessing from your posts - I don't know you) I am "just making excuses" why I won't go out where there are people. Because you do not understand does not mean I can "will" my mind to allow me to be near people - your lack of understanding extends only to you.
I do not know the anorexic you speak of, so I can not say if that one specifically is using the diagnosis as an excuse to be weird and possibly even using it for the sympathy card. But I do know that your responses on this thread show that you are using that particular person as proof that your self-righteous ego is correct in spite of all evidence to the contrary.
If I hurt your feelings, good - it means you actually read at least part of what I said. If I didn't hurt your feelings and you see no reason to re-evaluate what you have read, oh well, not everyone can learn.

I have read all of the post here and most of the links. I still have some more reading to do but I still don't see valid evidence to support anorexia being a disease that makes you helpless. Its not just one person that I have met that has brought me to my opinion, its quite a few people. And you didn't hurt my feelings. I just thinks it funny how a lot of people are taking offense to my opinion.
 
I still don't see valid evidence to support anorexia being a disease that makes you helpless.

The first part of your question has been answered. The last (underlined part) you have just added.

Helpless is a vague term, so I would like to know in what sense you are using it. Apart from a condition that puts you unconscious in bed I think no disease makes you helpless .

In your opinion what is the differece between blaming a disease for bad behaviors and explaining bad behaviors as part of a disease?
 
The first part of your question has been answered. The last (underlined part) you have just added.

Helpless is a vague term, so I would like to know in what sense you are using it. Apart from a condition that puts you unconscious in bed I think no disease makes you helpless .

In your opinion what is the differece between blaming a disease for bad behaviors and explaining bad behaviors as part of a disease?

It should be pretty obvious what I mean by helpless but I can explain it if you want. I mean helpless in the sense that you can't stop yourself. And as for the difference, which should also be obvious, if the bad behavior is part of a disease then they would have an excuse. But I don't believe that alcoholics are helpless. If you cowboy up and stop having a helpless attitude then its possible to stop drinking. When I got a DUI I was court ordered to attend AA meetings and noone at those meetings ever had the 5 year coins. They were constantly relapsing and I think because they kept believing in the helpless attitude is what caused them to relapse so much. I see a lot of similarities in the attitudes of people with anorexia. I believe that if you condition yourself then you can screw up your bodies physiology but I don't think that there is anything that forces these people to get that way in the first place. It seems like conditioning to me.
 
Epok

Earlier I cited the WHO as the yardstick for which we accept AN, alcoholism etc as a disease.
I also cited a definition of the word disease for your edification.
As others have previously stated, you simply choose to ignore any data or references from authority that do not fall in line with your own experience and misguided opinions.
Tell me, just how many AA meetings did you go to? Where abouts? I work in the industry and I know 00s of people that through AA (and elsewhere) have decades of sobriety.

None are so blind as those who will not see.
In this case you have yet to provide any data or evidence supporting your claims rather than your skinny anecdotes. Please put some meat on the bones of your argument so we can have a serious discussion.
 
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I have read all of the post here and most of the links. I still have some more reading to do but I still don't see valid evidence to support anorexia being a disease that makes you helpless. Its not just one person that I have met that has brought me to my opinion, its quite a few people. And you didn't hurt my feelings. I just thinks it funny how a lot of people are taking offense to my opinion.

Now this is a different set of issues, no one is helpless in most cases. But helpless to do what is the question.

That includes people with severe biological symptoms, there are a few diseases like narcolepsy where e there are very few choices people can make to alter the course of the disease.

Now this is a separate issue from disease in general, people can not usually control the symptoms of a disease, but they can modify their response to the symptoms.

In the case of mental health issues only mild symptoms will respond to solely behavioral strategies. So depending on the severity of the symptoms the range of responses the individual may have will vary. This is true of schizophrenia, anxiety, depression and I believe anorexia nervosa.

In the case of anorexia nervosa, if the symptoms are strong they will have little ability to distract themselves from the intrusive thoughts and body distortions. As stated before the best course then it going to be medication, CBT and lifestyle changes. But without symptom reduction, there is little that CBT alone is going to be able to do.


Now the issue of helplessness is a very complex one and it is multifaceted.

There is the histrionic behavior or dependant behavior that has a behavioral payoff for a wide variety on individuals, it is not limited to those with a mental illness by any means. There are those who will use their condition as an excuse to get other people to do things that they can do for themselves. It is a very common human behavior.

But helplessness is also a feeling associated with depression and that can be co-occurring with anorexia nervosa, feeling overwhelmed is a common reason people feel hopeless when they are depressed there are some cognitive behavioral skills that will help there, but again in the fact of strong symptoms they will be mostly ineffective.

So again there are some things people are helpless to control, such as symptoms of anxiety, intrusive thoughts and compulsions. The response to those symptoms will be mostly under the control of the individual (bounded by panic and compulsion at times). But the effectiveness of changing responses is going to vary depending on the severity of the symptoms.

If a person has mild AN, it might be that they can use 'retalking' or decoupling and substitution of behaviors to have an effect upon the outcome of their response to symptoms. Standard CBT will have some effect and most likely reduce overall symptomology.

But is they are having more severe symptoms, then less likely unless there is medication and a reduction of symptoms to go along with the CBT.

Then there are always the three bugaboos of mental health treatment: substance abuse, lifestyle and relationships. They always mess with CBT and medication. Substance abuse is a major contributor to all sorts of mental health issues, stimulants in particular can mess up anxiety and worsen symptoms. It is not uncommon to have to have a dual treatment in place to reduce substance abuse while using CBT and medication. Then there is lifestyle, many people (and rightly so) do not want to change their lifestyle, they do not want to give up the stress in their lives because of things like money. Then the wonderful relationships, if you have an enmeshed partner or family member who derives their self worth from your helplessness, they often don't want the system to change.

So again the issue comes down to helpless over what, people can control some things and not others. There are people who will manipulate a situation and milk it for all it is worth and there are also those who really can't do more than hold place against their symptoms, then there are the vast majority somewhere in between.
 
if the bad behavior is part of a disease then they would have an excuse.

Ok, so under the definitions that were provided before both alcoholism and AN can be classified as a disease.

The rest of your reasoning is just based on emotions and personal anecdotes.

How do you know if behavior exhibited during the disease is part of that disease or not, and therefore excusable?

Can you show some reasoning/ research not based on emotions to support your claim that these behaviors are not part of the disease??
 
Epok

Earlier I cited the WHO as the yardstick for which we accept AN, alcoholism etc as a disease.
I also cited a definition of the word disease for your edification.
As others have previously stated, you simply choose to ignore any data or references from authority that do not fall in line with your own experience and misguided opinions.
Tell me, just how many AA meetings did you go to? Where abouts? I work in the industry and I know 00s of people that through AA (and elsewhere) have decades of sobriety.

None are so blind as those who will not see.
In this case you have yet to provide any data or evidence supporting your claims rather than your skinny anecdotes. Please put some meat on the bones of your argument so we can have a serious discussion.

Its more of a philosophical argument on my end. The only evidence I have is that fact that I did it. I have friends that have done it. One of friends was hooked on heroin and was shooting up every 3 hours. If he can quit without a 12-step program then anyone can.
 
Ok, so under the definitions that were provided before both alcoholism and AN can be classified as a disease.

The rest of your reasoning is just based on emotions and personal anecdotes.

How do you know if behavior exhibited during the disease is part of that disease or not, and therefore excusable?

Can you show some reasoning/ research not based on emotions to support your claim that these behaviors are not part of the disease??

Ok, according to the dictionary definition of disease it could be classified that way but I still have trouble agreeing with it because under that loose definition you could also say that someone who can't quit biting their nails has a disease. That also doesn't mean that you can't quit just by stepping up and taking responsibilities for your actions. And as for your last question no I haven't found any research that correlates with my belief. I wouldn't expect a doctor or a therapist to wanna agree with me because that would mean less capital for them.
 
So again the issue comes down to helpless over what, people can control some things and not others. There are people who will manipulate a situation and milk it for all it is worth and there are also those who really can't do more than hold place against their symptoms, then there are the vast majority somewhere in between.

I think that is my biggest beef with this issue. The people who use it to get sympathy and keep right on with their irrational behavior even though they know they could quit if they made an honest effort to.
 
Its more of a philosophical argument on my end. The only evidence I have is that fact that I did it. I have friends that have done it. One of friends was hooked on heroin and was shooting up every 3 hours. If he can quit without a 12-step program then anyone can.


Weak anecdotes!
I also said that people recovered in polaces other than 12 step programs. 12 step programs have never said they own the monopoly on recovery and it is the height of ignorance for you to suggest it.
I too have friens such as you mention - some managed to die at the end of a needle or the bottom of a bottle - they didnt have a problem either - some too managed recovery in a variety of forms.

You fail to address the main issue here which for me seems to be a general inability to see reason. You may not have noticed but you stand alone in your beliefs from; those in this forum, mental health experts, other experts in the field, medical experts, psychiatric and phycological experts, world health bodies and english language experts.

What you want is someone to agree with you.

It is impossible to debate if you give nothings except childish stubbornness.

Either put up or shut up.
 
Its more of a philosophical argument on my end. The only evidence I have is that fact that I did it. I have friends that have done it. One of friends was hooked on heroin and was shooting up every 3 hours. If he can quit without a 12-step program then anyone can.

Faulty logic. If he quite with out a 12 step program it is possible, it does not follow that anyone can do the same. It is rather like saying if prozac cured my suicidal friends depression it will cure anyones.
 
Its more of a philosophical argument on my end. The only evidence I have is that fact that I did it. I have friends that have done it. One of friends was hooked on heroin and was shooting up every 3 hours. If he can quit without a 12-step program then anyone can.

Now that is another topic. The utility of 12-steps programs and who benefits are seperate issues. (Especially from anorexia nervosa)
 
Ok, according to the dictionary definition of disease it could be classified that way but I still have trouble agreeing with it because under that loose definition you could also say that someone who can't quit biting their nails has a disease. That also doesn't mean that you can't quit just by stepping up and taking responsibilities for your actions. And as for your last question no I haven't found any research that correlates with my belief. I wouldn't expect a doctor or a therapist to wanna agree with me because that would mean less capital for them.



-Defintions are 75% of what the JREF discussions are about, one needs defintions to have critical discussions.Seriously that is the vast majority of discussion in the SMT forum.
-Now the use language 'who can't quit biting their nails has a disease' is hard to discuss, you just used a phrase which implies it is beyond their control, I don't think that is what you met
-this is also an overgeneralization

Then your big assertion:
"And as for your last question no I haven't found any research that correlates with my belief. I wouldn't expect a doctor or a therapist to wanna agree with me because that would mean less capital for them"

Now you just made another conjoined fallacy that I doubt you will defend:
-research is preformed by people with a monetary intrest in the promotion of a disease
 
I think that is my biggest beef with this issue. The people who use it to get sympathy and keep right on with their irrational behavior even though they know they could quit if they made an honest effort to.

Well, how can you tell that they can just quit?

that would be the rub, you can't tell just by looking at them. (At least if you are sceptical of your own beliefs.)

You would have to use some metrics to really measure the success of the behavioral change to determine how the symptoms respond to behavioral intervention.

So it might appear (and you can clarify) that you are asserting that all people diagnosed with anorexia nervosa fall into this category. Is that your intention?

Or would it seem reasonable to you that there would be people who can just quit without any effeort, those wo will need more serious intervention/medication?
 
Faulty logic. If he quite with out a 12 step program it is possible, it does not follow that anyone can do the same. It is rather like saying if prozac cured my suicidal friends depression it will cure anyones.

And that the process of addiction/substance abuse is the same as the process of anorexia nervosa.
 

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