Is Anorexia really a disease?

[Dancing David]

there is not mucg data from a cursory look for research about anorexia in non-industrial countries, will take some time, came across just two so far: The first is not what i am looking for,
http://www.emro.who.int/Publications/EMHJ/0502/20.htm

Not really a great study and somewhat old

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/185/4/312
2004 small sample but better data

 

[Nosi]

Wow, 1968, that was back when most kids would have been put in the special room with no skills training.

Wow!

I would have been in the nut hut if it wouldn't have been for my adoptive family, especially my mother who knew just how to advocate for me. This despite not being in the mental health field; she was a dance teacher and choreographer for 25 years.

 

[Epok]

And yet you do not even have a position other than "I think that self pity is the cause of anorexia", you base this upon your own experience with substance abuse.

I stated much more than that. And of course it is my only experience. I started this thread so I could learn more.

Anecdotal and unrelated. And not much of a case, you experience with substance abuse translates to people with anorexia nervosa. how?

To me it seems very similar and do they not use a 12-step program to treat anorexia.

And then you said you wanted a 'certified mental health professional', did you not?

Yes I did. Are you a certified mental health professional?

You haven't even explained what self pity is and why yo think it causes anorexia.

Why do I have to explain what self pity is?

Uh sure, you came is saying the cause of anorexia was self pity just like addiction. That is a theory or a hypothesis, and you can't support it.
And your evidence that you can just will away anorexia, if you read what i said about biological effects on behavior you will see that there are three domains, exclusively from organic dysregulation, stress related dysregulation and dysregulation form conditioning. What make you think that there are not anorexia that fit into all three categories?
Your lack of research and personal opinion?

It seems like you have completely misunderstood my point for this thread. Now I have to dissect every little detail for you to understand since you take such offense to my original belief that your anger clouds your judgement. I said that to me it seems like it was all about self pity. And I know for a fact that you can will away addiction. I don't know enough to make a professional opinion about anorexia so I am asking for advice from a professional.

You claim that you have 'Alcoholism' with a capital A, and I can't assess you on that, but...
That doesn't mean squat about anything doing with anorexia, it is about you and substance abuse, not anorexia.

I never admitted to being an Alcoholic because I don't believe in the criteria they use to determine if you are an Alcoholic.

Nope you presented your theory that anorexia nervose was based in self pity.
It could be that it is, but you have presented no evidence whatsoever.

Its not a theory because it hasn't been submitted for peer-reviewed judgement. Once again, you fail to realize that I am here for answers to questions that I have. I do not claim to be the know-all authority on this matter.

You satted a whole lot more than that as well.

I'm gonna need a correction of spelling for what you mean there.

I stated that is one of the paths to dysregulation, i did not state it was the end all be all, now did I?

No, and I never said that you did.

If they respond to CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy), if they have other severe symptoms of other disorders such as depression. You can't tell, you can only guess and treat.
causation is always speculative in mental health. Even with PET scans.

I like hearing stuff like this. It informs me to things I did not already know.

See I said I have insulted you and then stopped, have a complex?

I apologize.

Yes, I have a complex now. Every time I hear "Dancing" or "David" I feel the need to masturbate til I get blisters. You are the only one who understands me and puts me in my place. I can't live without you. And since you apologized I will take you back.

There are varied opinions amongst professionals, the mainstream consensus is that mental illness is biopsychosocial, that there are biological basis, they impact the psychology of interaction and social functioning. In all people living with a mental illness, they are going to have a mix of all three, some will have higher impact from biology (paranoid schizophrenics can usually hold jobs, disorganized schizophrenics have a much harder time), one person will develop symptoms under mild stress and other only under very high stress. Some people have mild symptoms that are mainly a product of life style and conditioning. (IE mild phobia), other will need medication and heavy behavioral therapy.

There are no absolutes, even in schizophrenia there are five major types and likely to be many, many sub-groups.

Anorexia nervosa is a strange beast, it partakes of both symptomology of depression and anxiety. And the mainstream view is that as in any mental illness there are those who have a high biological component, those who have a medium biological component and those that have a low component. This then plays out in stress as well, those with a high biological component will exhibit symptoms regardless of stress levels, medium biological components will show higher symptoms under higher stress, mild component will show symptoms under high stress. Then all categories will have various conditioning components as well. So even before you start into any other analysis you are going to have at least those three components, biological basis, response to stress and conditioned component.

So depending on just these three spectrums we can say that those who have a low biological component, low stress component and low to medium behavioral component are more likely to respond to just a behavioral therapy intervention with life style changes.

As the other scaled go up the success of behavioral intervention alone is likely to go down and the benefit of medication to increase. So in the mainstream it depends upon the cluster of symptoms and their severity, mild symptoms and high life functioning, likely to benefit from just CBT. The more severe the symptoms, the more mixed with other disorders and the more likely that medication and CBT will be beneficial.

But then the subtypes of people who practice therapy and resist sending their clients for psychiatry is there and then there is the strangeness that is the anorexia treatment community itself.

Now see how hard that was? I need info like that. Especially since my girlfriend suffers from Schizophrenia. If you give me a minute and let me look up some of those terms in the dictionary I can probably understand what you are talking about. Not that you aren't making sense, but a lot of this is new to me and I have a serious desire to learn.

 

[Epok]

No perhaps you are not used to the JREF, you have a conjoined thought,
1. That narcissism is the cause of anorexia.
2. Is narcissism biological?

I am questioning your assumption that you have of anorexia as self pity, self absorption and narcissism.

I have stated this before and called it into question, you seem to just be restating your premise that narcissism is the cause of anorexia, that is what I am questioning.

I would say it is likely that if the self absorption exists it is a co-occurent symtoms of the obsession with body image.

I stayed off to the sidelines for awhile before I started posting on JREF. I know how it works. Question my assumption all you want. But give me a reason to doubt it. James Randi has a bad habit of using tact whenever he speaks. Did you not realize that I was a fan of his? I'm sorry, I just expected there to be a more professional approach to my questions.

 

[Epok]

Disease is a vague term:

A disease or medical condition is an abnormal condition of an organism that impairs bodily functions, associated with specific symptoms and signs.

In human beings, "disease" is often used more broadly to refer to any condition that causes pain, dysfunction, distress, social problems, and/or death to the person afflicted, or similar problems for those in contact with the person. In this broader sense, it sometimes includes injuries, disabilities, disorders, syndromes, infections, isolated symptoms, deviant behaviors, and atypical variations of structure and function (Wiki)

So just based on that Anorexia would be a disease.

ETA

From a dictionary

1. a disordered or incorrectly functioning organ, part, structure, or system of the body resulting from the effect of genetic or developmental errors, infection, poisons, nutritional deficiency or imbalance, toxicity, or unfavorable environmental factors; illness; sickness; ailment.
2. any abnormal condition in a plant that interferes with its vital physiological processes, caused by pathogenic microorganisms, parasites, unfavorable environmental, genetic, or nutritional factors, etc.
3. any harmful, depraved, or morbid condition, as of the mind or society: His fascination with executions is a disease.
4. decomposition of a material under special circumstances: tin disease.

This would also include anorexia.

You claim that anorexia is different from other diseases, which is correct, since a lot of diseases differ from each other. However based on the above it seems that it can easily be classified as a disease.

That is a good point. Thank you for taking the time to point that out. I don't mind being wrong but I prefer when someone uses tact when they point it out. It gives me a better reason to listen to them.

 

[Epok]

there is not mucg data from a cursory look for research about anorexia in non-industrial countries, will take some time, came across just two so far: The first is not what i am looking for,
http://www.emro.who.int/Publications/EMHJ/0502/20.htm

Not really a great study and somewhat old

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/185/4/312
2004 small sample but better data

The second link is really good but it will take me some time to read and I bookmarked it because it has a lot of references so it is not something you can just glance over and think that you understand it completely.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I stated much more than that. And of course it is my only experience. I started this thread so I could learn more.

But all you seem to be interested in is learning more to reinforce your preconcieved notions.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

My first ever post. I am finding this discussion extremely interesting and thought I would raise one or two points. I hope I am doing this correctly.


"I never admitted to being an Alcoholic because I don't believe in the criteria they use to determine if you are an Alcoholic".

Can I ask what criteria exactly are you referring to?

 

[Hallo Alfie]

I think I am doing this a little wrong however, Epoc stated the preceding and this:

"And I know for a fact that you can will away addiction."

Really?
I would be interested in some data on this
Addiction can no more be willed away than a case of diarrhoea; it requires intense therapy and rehabilitation.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

I am currently in a debate with a friend who is/has suffered from anorexia. She claims it is a disease and I do not on the grounds that it is a conscious action that you have conditioned yourself for. Similar to Alcoholism. I know a lot of experts and psychologists consider it a disease but I don't have a good reason to believe it ....

The world Health Organisation (WHO) recognises Aloholism, drug addiction and AN etc all as diseases or illnesses. Can you believe this body and accept their judgement?
It seems to me that if we look at the definition of a disease they all fall into the disease category quite snuggly. Here's one definition as an example - there are 00s more
'.. an impairment of health or a condition of abnormal functioning..'
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

It seems to me that because of your history as (probably) a problem drinker that managed to overcome your problem you consider anyone else who cannot as weak willed or similar.

It is because you are not one who suffers with one of these conditions nor work in a related field, that your beliefs come from a position of zero empathy and even less understanding.

Frankly, it seems to me that a lot of people have spent a lot of time and effort in trying to explain logically, medically, anecdotally, theoretically and metaphorically the reasons why your assumptions and biases are incorrect.

Please tell us what will satisfy you (or have I missed something)?

 

[Dancing David]

I stayed off to the sidelines for awhile before I started posting on JREF. I know how it works. Question my assumption all you want. But give me a reason to doubt it. James Randi has a bad habit of using tact whenever he speaks. Did you not realize that I was a fan of his? I'm sorry, I just expected there to be a more professional approach to my questions.

Excuse me, that is your response, , more of your expectation, you still keep defending your belief that the cause of anorexia is some sort of self absorption, self pity or whatever.

But that is you belief and your claim and you can't defend it, so when i call you on it you shift the goals psost.

You made a conflation of two ideas and then asked why i didn't answer it, now you are talking about James Randi?

I didn't know that was my screen name. I called you on your fallacy of conflation.

 

[JJM 777]

Is this thread dying off? So let us add some more fuel:

"And I know for a fact that you can will away addiction."
(...)
Addiction can no more be willed away than a case of diarrhoea; it requires intense therapy and rehabilitation.

Diarrhea cannot be cured by the power of thought (except according to some weird positive-thinking gurus). But it is possible to refrain from addiction, by simply deciding not to take the next dose. Even if not taking the next dose leads to severe pain or death, it is possible to decide not to take the next dose.

For unknown reasons, some people are more strong-willed than others. Also various reasons make equally strong-willed persons more or less motivated to fight the addiction. The best solution is a closed environment where the object of addiction is not available, and where the withdrawal symptoms are treated. How to get back from there to an environment where the object of addiction is again available, the truth is that some people never learn the trick, and their only hope would be living in a city where the object is not available. Talking about cigarettes, alcohol or drugs, great numbers of people are easily found who would volunteer, or indeed prefer, not to have them for sale in their city.

 

[Dancing David]

I stated much more than that. And of course it is my only experience. I started this thread so I could learn more.



To me it seems very similar and do they not use a 12-step program to treat anorexia.

To you they seem similar?

That is the basis of what, personal opinion, and I am calling you on that opinion. You haven't done anything to support your belief that substance dependence is related to anorexia at all.

Yeah and non-professional treatment groups mean what?

That is like saying 'well people use homeopathy, so it must be medicine'

Are you really using critical thinking skills in reference to your own ideas?

Yes I did. Are you a certified mental health professional?

And it would matter because?

that is an appeal to authority is it not? I could come up with all sorts of people who are.

What sort of critical thinking is that?

Why do I have to explain what self pity is?

Okay, it is a vague term and has no meaning.

Especially in term of forming any ideas about possible causes of mental illness.

So the corollary that people with self pity will develop anorexia is what? False.

Self-pity is not helpful as a term.

You are just restating your personal opinion and that is all it is.

It seems like you have completely misunderstood my point for this thread. Now I have to dissect every little detail for you to understand since you take such offense to my original belief that your anger clouds your judgement.

Ah yes, I did act rudely , now you assume you can skate on your lack of critical thinking. You really have psychic powers to determine my thoughts and motivations now as well.

I am not insulting you know. I was wrong to do so.

But you are still just clinging to your opinion with no evidence.

I said that to me it seems like it was all about self pity. And I know for a fact that you can will away addiction.

Now that would require tow things.
1. A demonstration of addiction.
2. A demonstration that you can just will it away.

Not that you haven't defined 'will away' anyhow, and the bigger issue:

What does that have to do with anorexia nervosa, other than your over generalization?

I don't know enough to make a professional opinion about anorexia so I am asking for advice from a professional.

And that was not well stated in your OP, now was it?

I never admitted to being an Alcoholic because I don't believe in the criteria they use to determine if you are an Alcoholic.

And those criteria are where, and what are they?

Now this could be ambiguous as to are you talking about yourself or someone else, but which is it?
"5. I can be stubborn at times. But I have dealt with Alcoholism and I see many similarities with it and Anorexia. I feel that if anyone can stop drinking then these people should be able to start eating."

And again the same overgeneralization.

Its not a theory because it hasn't been submitted for peer-reviewed judgement. Once again, you fail to realize that I am here for answers to questions that I have. I do not claim to be the know-all authority on this matter.

Nor did I say you had, however the JREF is about examining the basis of our personal beliefs.

You are failing to even try to defend your personal belief or provide evidence to support it.
"I believe that because people can stop drinking people with anorexia nervosa can just stop.'

That is a fallacy of overgeneralization.

I'm gonna need a correction of spelling for what you mean there.

fair enough, 'stated'. But I have belabored the point that you have constructed personal beliefs you are not supporting with evidence.

No, and I never said that you did.



I like hearing stuff like this. It informs me to things I did not already know.



Yes, I have a complex now. Every time I hear "Dancing" or "David" I feel the need to masturbate til I get blisters. You are the only one who understands me and puts me in my place. I can't live without you. And since you apologized I will take you back.

That was an inappropriate response, you are something else.

Now see how hard that was? I need info like that. Especially since my girlfriend suffers from Schizophrenia. If you give me a minute and let me look up some of those terms in the dictionary I can probably understand what you are talking about. Not that you aren't making sense, but a lot of this is new to me and I have a serious desire to learn.

Then start to defend your ideas or at least stop just asserting your opinions.

I am glad you know someone with a mental illness, but again you conflate 'anorexia nervosa' with 'problem drinking'.

Your Op was still mainly just the same opinion you have continued to state and not defend.

 

[ponderingturtle]

For unknown reasons, some people are more strong-willed than others.

Or some feel such compulsions more weakly. I am not so convinced that saying that X people are strong willed and X people are weak willed is valid.

 

[Dancing David]

I think I am doing this a little wrong however, Epoc stated the preceding and this:

"And I know for a fact that you can will away addiction."

Really?
I would be interested in some data on this
Addiction can no more be willed away than a case of diarrhoea; it requires intense therapy and rehabilitation.

Welcome to the fray!

I would agree, it takes an adjustment of all sorts of small behaviors. I prefer the 'big choice' of Trimpey myself. I think rehab can be helpful but have a bias towards community based treatments. Some people seem to need rehab, but the success rates are about teh same for everything.

 

[paximperium]

Or some feel such compulsions more weakly. I am not so convinced that saying that X people are strong willed and X people are weak willed is valid.

And some feel the uncontrollable need to bite their nails until they bleed or to cut themselves repeatedly. How does this compare to any other addiction or disorder?

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Agreed.
Each to their own:
no program or therapy cliams to have a 100% success rate (dont we wish?) but each has their own place to assist a small portion of those suffering.

 

[paximperium]

Agreed.
Each to their own:
no program or therapy cliams to have a 100% success rate (dont we wish?) but each has their own place to assist a small portion of those suffering.

Welcome to the dogpile.

 

[dlorde]

... And I know for a fact that you can will away addiction.

So vague a generalisation that it seems lacking in useful meaning.

And yet - I've always had the impression that (in general usage) 'addiction' usually means going beyond the point in some compulsive activity at which you can simply 'will it away'... i.e. you're addicted when you can't just stop at will.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Thanks for the welcomes friends.