Is Anorexia really a disease?

[Hallo Alfie]

Not really, I don't think Epok is trolling. Epok is responding to post, just disagreeing. There is a difference.

Just for my benefit, what is the difference?
Im not being deliberately naive here either, just plain ignorant I'm afraid

 

[Belz...]

I think that is my biggest beef with this issue. The people who use it to get sympathy and keep right on with their irrational behavior even though they know they could quit if they made an honest effort to.

Well, then. I think you should reevaluate that beef of yours. Basically you're saying that because some anorexics are using their condition as an excuse, anorexia can't be a disease.

Think about it.

 

[Dancing David]

I was speaking just to his idea that anyone can quite drugs with out any assistence.

Sure, i should have been clearer, i was just sidebarring back to his comparison between substance issues and anorexia nervosa.

 

[Dancing David]

Just for my benefit, what is the difference?
Im not being deliberately naive here either, just plain ignorant I'm afraid

Well troll takes a bit of effort and is used rather loosely, just my opinion.

Usually but not always trolls
-never respond to direct questions
-engage in all sorts of hisitrionics and theatrics

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Cheers, that makes sense.

 

[pipelineaudio]

How is it such a big leap from "you can talk your way out of a behaviour/addiction" to "you can will yourself out of a behaviour/addiction"?

Many people here seem to believe 12 step religious programs can cure alcoholism and addiction, the american government even forces people into these programs.

12 step religious programs do not use drugs to treat, they use talk. Their success rate depends ultimately on the will of the subject. I can't make the logical connection to where so many seem to stand where they say "snap out of it" is such bad advice.

I dont know anything about the biology of anorexia, but I do know that in many cases 12 step religious programs are used to treat them in lieu of drugs, at least here in rehab central.

 

[ponderingturtle]

How is it such a big leap from "you can talk your way out of a behaviour/addiction" to "you can will yourself out of a behaviour/addiction"?

The difference is what will work for a person. Sure some people can will themselves out of long term usage patterns. Others can with the help of support groups. There is also a difference between thearapy and just talking in a support group as well.

The issue is that just because some people can just stop a behavior does not mean that everyone can. There is a difference between a habit of biting your nails and a compulsion to bite your nails.

 

[Kariboo]

How is it such a big leap from "you can talk your way out of a behaviour/addiction" to "you can will yourself out of a behaviour/addiction"?

Many people here seem to believe 12 step religious programs can cure alcoholism and addiction, the american government even forces people into these programs.

12 step religious programs do not use drugs to treat, they use talk. Their success rate depends ultimately on the will of the subject. I can't make the logical connection to where so many seem to stand where they say "snap out of it" is such bad advice.

I dont know anything about the biology of anorexia, but I do know that in many cases 12 step religious programs are used to treat them in lieu of drugs, at least here in rehab central.

It starts with the assumption that a behavior (drinking or AN) is the result of a lack of will to do the right thing. In the best case scenario this is only partially true (there can be biological, genetic, social and psychological reasons as well). So offering a program that only uses 'the will of the subject' to treat the disorder only addresses part of the issue. If you then make the assumption that lack of success of such a program is only due to the lack of will of a person, you are using circular reasoning.

 

[pipelineaudio]

It starts with the assumption that a behavior (drinking or AN) is the result of a lack of will to do the right thing. In the best case scenario this is only partially true (there can be biological, genetic, social and psychological reasons as well). So offering a program that only uses 'the will of the subject' to treat the disorder only addresses part of the issue. If you then make the assumption that lack of success of such a program is only due to the lack of will of a person, you are using circular reasoning.

In what way does a talking program not ultimately rely on the will of the person being treated?

Pondering turtle helped me see that its more of a points along a specturm thing, sometimes talking to yourself isn't enough and talking to others can be better, but ultimately it all comes down to will

I don't buy the claim you seem to be making that religion can treat the biological and genetic parts of an addiction

 

[Dancing David]

In what way does a talking program not ultimately rely on the will of the person being treated?

Pondering turtle helped me see that its more of a points along a specturm thing, sometimes talking to yourself isn't enough and talking to others can be better, but ultimately it all comes down to will

I don't buy the claim you seem to be making that religion can treat the biological and genetic parts of an addiction

Now that depends on whate a 'talking programs' is, does it not?

You can also have a behavioral focus which comes down to a lot more than sheer will power. It is about the application of that will.

 

[Kariboo]

In what way does a talking program not ultimately rely on the will of the person being treated?

Pondering turtle helped me see that its more of a points along a specturm thing, sometimes talking to yourself isn't enough and talking to others can be better, but ultimately it all comes down to will

I don't buy the claim you seem to be making that religion can treat the biological and genetic parts of an addiction

That's not what I am trying to say.

A talking program does rely on the will of the subject, I am just saying if 'will' is not the only reason for a disease a talking program does not address that. So a talking program does not treat biological or genetic issues and if they are the underlying problem than a talking program will fail in treating that person

 

[Epok]

Weak anecdotes!
I also said that people recovered in polaces other than 12 step programs. 12 step programs have never said they own the monopoly on recovery and it is the height of ignorance for you to suggest it.
I too have friens such as you mention - some managed to die at the end of a needle or the bottom of a bottle - they didnt have a problem either - some too managed recovery in a variety of forms.

You fail to address the main issue here which for me seems to be a general inability to see reason. You may not have noticed but you stand alone in your beliefs from; those in this forum, mental health experts, other experts in the field, medical experts, psychiatric and phycological experts, world health bodies and english language experts.

What you want is someone to agree with you.

It is impossible to debate if you give nothings except childish stubbornness.

Either put up or shut up.

I'm not the only person in the world who shares this belief and I am not just looking for someone to agree with me. I'm looking for a good, thorough discussion about Anorexia. Taking the time to respond to post like these that wanna insult me (and later on you try to insinuate that I'm a troll) do make me respond stubbornly. It also takes away from the discussion.

 

[Epok]

-Defintions are 75% of what the JREF discussions are about, one needs defintions to have critical discussions.Seriously that is the vast majority of discussion in the SMT forum.
-Now the use language 'who can't quit biting their nails has a disease' is hard to discuss, you just used a phrase which implies it is beyond their control, I don't think that is what you met
-this is also an overgeneralization

Then your big assertion:
"And as for your last question no I haven't found any research that correlates with my belief. I wouldn't expect a doctor or a therapist to wanna agree with me because that would mean less capital for them"

Now you just made another conjoined fallacy that I doubt you will defend:
-research is preformed by people with a monetary intrest in the promotion of a disease

I don't think that all studies are some big conspiracy to make money off of a disease but there have been studies that have been tainted for that reason. I sometimes wonder if it is the case with AN. And, honestly, I'm not gonna defend myself if I feel that I was genuinely wrong about something.

 

[Epok]

So it might appear (and you can clarify) that you are asserting that all people diagnosed with anorexia nervosa fall into this category. Is that your intention?

Or would it seem reasonable to you that there would be people who can just quit without any effeort, those wo will need more serious intervention/medication?

Well, yeah that is what I was asserting. Anorexics and Addicts do say some similar things so it was natural for me to assume that it works the same way. Now, I don't think that Addicts/Alcoholics can quite without any effort but it is possible to completely quit and never go back to using again. It does take a lot of willpower but I don't think its easy. Some people need the extra support but not everyone.

My main doubts are with the claims that Anorexia is not any different from having cancer. You can't just will away cancer, even though it has been shown that having a positive outlook does have an effect, you still need professional medical help to cure it.

 

[Epok]

He uses it to get sympathy and keeps right on with his irrational behavior even though he knows he could quit if he made an honest effort to...

Its not me that ran into that brick wall. That damn brick wall just jumped out and bumped into me. And I'm gonna make it pay.

 

[Dancing David]

Well, yeah that is what I was asserting. Anorexics and Addicts do say some similar things so it was natural for me to assume that it works the same way. Now, I don't think that Addicts/Alcoholics can quite without any effort but it is possible to completely quit and never go back to using again. It does take a lot of willpower but I don't think its easy. Some people need the extra support but not everyone.

My main doubts are with the claims that Anorexia is not any different from having cancer. You can't just will away cancer, even though it has been shown that having a positive outlook does have an effect, you still need professional medical help to cure it.

Well, that is not a claim I have made (cancer is different from AN), i have compared anorexia nervosa to depression and OCD. Both of which fall on a spectrum where some will rspond to CBT alone, others will respond to medication and CBT. For some the response will be marginal none the less.

 

[Kariboo]

Well, yeah that is what I was asserting. Anorexics and Addicts do say some similar things so it was natural for me to assume that it works the same way. Now, I don't think that Addicts/Alcoholics can quite without any effort but it is possible to completely quit and never go back to using again. It does take a lot of willpower but I don't think its easy. Some people need the extra support but not everyone.

My main doubts are with the claims that Anorexia is not any different from having cancer. You can't just will away cancer, even though it has been shown that having a positive outlook does have an effect, you still need professional medical help to cure it.

You haven't provided any evidence that willpower is the only factor in the cause of alcoholism and/or AN. Because if it is not - and I believe you have been given information that it is not- just using willpower will not cure everyone. Not because of a lack of willpower but because there is a different cause.

Now unless you can provide any information, that is: not just your opinion, that willpower is the one and only cause of these issues, you can not claim that using willpower only is the cure.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

I'm not the only person in the world who shares this belief and I am not just looking for someone to agree with me. I'm looking for a good, thorough discussion about Anorexia. Taking the time to respond to post like these that wanna insult me (and later on you try to insinuate that I'm a troll) do make me respond stubbornly. It also takes away from the discussion.

And I repeat:
You fail to address the main issue here which for me seems to be a general inability to see reason. You may not have noticed but you stand alone in your beliefs from; those in this forum, mental health experts, other experts in the field, medical experts, psychiatric and phycological experts, world health bodies and english language experts.



Just because you and other share a belief, does not make it true; all it is is a belief. I apologise for insinuating you are a troll if indeed you aren't. Here's a chance to prove it - address the evidence and balanced part of the arguments that have been put before you and quell all our suspicions.

 

[Epok]

You haven't provided any evidence that willpower is the only factor in the cause of alcoholism and/or AN. Because if it is not - and I believe you have been given information that it is not- just using willpower will not cure everyone. Not because of a lack of willpower but because there is a different cause.

Now unless you can provide any information, that is: not just your opinion, that willpower is the one and only cause of these issues, you can not claim that using willpower only is the cure.

I don't think that lack of willpower is the only cause of addiction or even anorexia. Like Dancing David said, there are a few things that go along with it like depression and such. But I do think that willpower is the best way to control it. Trying to cure a heroin addiction with methadone isn't a very good idea. You're just trading one addiction for a new one. And I think people are forgetting the point of the OP. I didn't come here to convince people that anorexia isn't a disease. I gave my opinion and asked for info about it. If the info doesn't look that good then I'm gonna question it and ask for more. But some people would rather take offense to my opinion and tell me I'm a jerk without passing along any good info.

 

[Epok]

Well, that is not a claim I have made (cancer is different from AN), i have compared anorexia nervosa to depression and OCD. Both of which fall on a spectrum where some will rspond to CBT alone, others will respond to medication and CBT. For some the response will be marginal none the less.

I know you never made that claim but a lot of anorexics do. That is another reason I started this thread. Before posting here the only exposure I had to it was people I know that suffer from it and what I've seen on TV about it. I still need to read some of the links you sent me. I've just been busy as hell with this bobcat and my niece just got back from church (yeah I hate it) so I gotta fix her some food. Maybe I can get around to it later tonight.