Is Anorexia really a disease?

[Dancing David]

This is one thing I've noticed. Anything other than being completely happy has now become a disease.

No, that is a lay misperception. that is not the common practice in mentl health. Please demonstrate that is true and not just your impression.

Someone cheats on their spouse causing their spouse to leave them; they are now "depressed" and require medication. Whether the doc really thinks that depression is a valid diagnosis or not, if approached by a client are they really going to turn them away?

yes.

I've seen this sort of discussion before, and it was basically Patient:"Doctor, I'm depressed." Doctor:"Well, if you feel depressed, let's try [name of SSRI here] and see how you feel" .

So where did you see that discussion?

If someone is unhappy (as opposed to depressed) due entirely to their own choices, telling them they have a "disease" removes much of their own sense of responsibility for the condition they are in.

There is usually a mix of both in depression. You evaluate based upon functioning. The biggest problem is usually alcohol use and then the street drugs. People can have co-morbid addiction. But they can also have states created by substance abuse and dependance.

Being sad is an important behavioral feedback. "I treated all of my friends like crap and I don't have friends anymore; that makes me feel sad. Maybe, in the future, I should not treat my friends like crap."

Sadness and depression are related but different, one is like daily weather, the other is more like climate.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Well, yes and no. Quitting smoking or other drugs can very well be done by "just quitting". It is difficult, but it can indeed be done. I have no idea how that relates to a mental disorder.

I think it is better to say that some people can just quit, that does not prove that it is possible for everyone to just quit.

 

[Dancing David]

Well, really another thread.

it is about how you decide to quit.

You have to be ready to quit long before the actual event.

In the relapse prevention group the motto was, "If you are already headed to the liquor store it is too late."

 

[Pantaz]

Quitting smoking or other drugs can very well be done by "just quitting". It is difficult, but it can indeed be done.

My mother would have disagreed. Even after developing COPD (chronic obstructive pulmonary disease), and requiring supplemental oxygen, she continued to smoke. I was so amazed, I actually videotaped her one day, because I didn't think other family member would believe me.

 

[paximperium]

My mother would have disagreed. Even after developing COPD (chronic obstructive pulmonary disease), and requiring supplemental oxygen, she continued to smoke. I was so amazed, I actually videotaped her one day, because I didn't think other family member would believe me.

I find it sad watching COPD patients smoking while taking their albuterol breathing treatments.

 

[Nosi]

Hi, did a doctor give you that label. Of autism?



Autism can not be treated with medication, it can be treated pallativly throughe arly childhood intervention to teach the skills needed to cope with the dsiorder. And if someone has co-morbid sympoms of another disorder, then they can be treated pallativly as well.

Did you show the loss of language skills aquired by age two as you approached age 3?

I was diagnosed at age five with mild Autism at the Ming Quong Center back in the relative dark ages (born in 1968 when few knew what Autism was) and was then treated pallatively with behavior modification to do all the 'normal' things like speak, read, and live like any other person, at somewhat delayed rate at a special school. For example, I wasn't fully verbal until about sevenish to nine.

In Junior High I was mainstreamed into the public school system with help from Special Education. After high school graduation, I went to junior college and got an AA in journalism. Physical illness set in after graduation, killing any career, leaving me on SSD but that's not relative to this post.

Now the Autism basically 'hides' in my back pocket.

 

[Nosi]

Well, yes and no. Quitting smoking or other drugs can very well be done by "just quitting". It is difficult, but it can indeed be done. I have no idea how that relates to a mental disorder.

Cigarettes have chemicals that are addictive physically. That makes it harder to quit, and some people have more sensitivity to these chemicals, others have addictive personalities.

 

[Kariboo]

But why don't you see people in third world countries with anorexia?

A good question

For one I can't find any studies done on this. So one conclusion can be that we don't have the information to make that statement. Unless you can show me a study done on anorexia in 3rd world countries that claims otherwise.

I can find references (mostly abstracts because I don't have access to the whole studies) to studies done in Asia, India and the middle east. All suggesting that it does occur there. Not in the abundance we find anorexia here although there is some suggestion that it may be under diagnosed because of cultural differences.

How would you define 3rd world countries?

 

[Epok]

I think you are demanding a standard of proof that you won't meet your self.

There are multiple causes or triggers of the spectrum of disorders that cause mental illness.

1. Biological basis of human functions. The brain is a physical organ, if it malfunctions or has dysregulation, then this will create problems in the balanced functioning of the brain. Now drawing conclusions from this is sort of the scientific fine point. There are reasons to assume that schizophrenia is mostly a biological disorder in brain functioning. But short of showing exactly which pathways out of trillions are malfunctioning, you can not have certainty.

2. The biological vulnerabilities of brain functioning: there are times when a 'well functioning' brain can be driven to dysregulation. Lack of sleep for example can cause major hallucinations as can toxin and the like. Many people appear to have vulnerabilities based upon the concept of stress. If you place people in high stress environments, those that have certain vulnerabilities are more likely to display symptoms of disorders. And in fact grief and bereavement would probably fall somewhere in here.

3. Conditioning and associative learning. With the proviso that these are not spiritual processes, these are physical processes that are part of organic brain function. So we have classical operant conditioning and all of its associated paths and spin offs. Every human behavior is learned to some extent, at least those that happen after about six weeks of age. We can develop strange patterns and behaviors based solely upon conditioning in all its varieties. Sop often treatment of mild disorders involves just that changing the patterns of behavior and conditioning.


So we have a spectrum of possible triggers of mental disorders, some such as seizures are assumed to be mostly biiological in nature, orthers like mild anxiety or phobia are more than likely conditioned.

But it is organic and biological all the way so now we get to something it appears that you have stated:

The basis of anorexia nervosa is self absorption, is that right?

Now how do you think you could demonstrate that in terms we could measure of test for?

I wouldn't know how to demonstrate it in terms that could be tested. I am not a doctor. My whole point is to find a professional who could explain it in terms I can understand. I stated my beliefs and those beliefs come from my past experiences. I don't mind being wrong about something but I wanna have a good reason to reverse my position on it.

Then we can get to your fallacies later:

1. Reverse appeal to authority.
2. Lack of application of critical thinking or even explanation of your own ideas.
3. An apparent theory of psychology that you have yet to substantiate or flesh out, that self pity or self absorption causes anorexia.
4. Your anecdotal evidence that there is a test for schizophrenia, so far we have an anecdote where a person who is living with schizophrenia had two tests, but no demonstration that they indicated that the person had schizophrenia or that they were not part of a research study.
5. The application of a double standard where you assume that that there is a biological basis for one mental disorder but not another.
6. A unwillingness to meet the burden of proof and special pleading for your own ideas.

BTW I said former MH professional, and even is I was still doing that, my behavior of the board is not indicative of my professional status.

1. Whatever that means. There are many authorities that I don't believe. You even said yourself that there is some quackery in the mental health profession but I agree, that just like doctors, that doesn't make the whole profession quacks.
2. I did explain my ideas in the OP.
3. Its not a theory its a hypothesis, if you can even call it that. Its not like I'm submitting a paper to a scientific journal.
4. I'll admit I don't know that much about schizophrenia but from what I do know it doesn't sound like something that you can just will away.
5. I can be stubborn at times. But I have dealt with Alcoholism and I see many similarities with it and Anorexia. I feel that if anyone can stop drinking then these people should be able to start eating.
6. The burden of proof is not on me. It is entirely possible that there is a God but I'm not gonna buy into it until I see proper evidence for it. I only stated the opinion that I don't believe it is a disease like cancer is. You stated yourself that someone can be conditioned to become Anorexic but you also stated that there are cases where some people have an actual neurological dysfunction. How do you tell the difference?


I honestly wanna hear a professional point of view. If you just wanna say that I'm a jerk then thank you, it took me a long time to get that esteemed honor.

 

[Epok]

A good question

For one I can't find any studies done on this. So one conclusion can be that we don't have the information to make that statement. Unless you can show me a study done on anorexia in 3rd world countries that claims otherwise.

I can find references (mostly abstracts because I don't have access to the whole studies) to studies done in Asia, India and the middle east. All suggesting that it does occur there. Not in the abundance we find anorexia here although there is some suggestion that it may be under diagnosed because of cultural differences.

How would you define 3rd world countries?

Maybe I should have said "countries or regions that suffer from famine or food shortages". That is another reason that fueled my belief that its not a disease in the sense that cancer is a disease. I would very much like to find some information on that. Thanks.

 

[Epok]

Cigarettes have chemicals that are addictive physically. That makes it harder to quit, and some people have more sensitivity to these chemicals, others have addictive personalities.

I have a friend who was shooting up heroin almost every 3 hours. He quit everything but cigarettes. Heroin is a nasty drug to detox off of but it is possible, although extremely hard, to stop using. It takes an incredible amount of willpower.

 

[Epok]

Are you assuimng that is the cause of the anorexia mervosa?
That is rather a huge leap, is it not?

This is what is getting frustrating. Did you notice the question mark at the end of my sentence? I put it there for a reason. You seem to wanna put me down rather than answer an honest question.

 

[MikeMangum]

In conclusion, you have no idea what you're talking about. Being sad is not being depressed. I find it exceedingly insulting that people still have this throwback mindset towards mental illness.

The rather haphazard practice of family docs in dolling out SSRIs does not invalidate the severity and abnormality of depression and a multitude of psychiatric illnesses. If you think being depressed is just "being sad", you are beyond ignorant.

You missed my point. I wasn't saying that the mental health profession treats anything other than a constant state of bliss as abnormal, I was saying that it seems to be a growing outlook in society. I view it as very destructive.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Alcoholism is a weird disease in that the government often court orders people to cure it using religion. Here in Wickenburg, home of such shows as A&E's intervention, with celebrity rehabs as far as the eye can see, they do the same with anorexia and other disorders.

I dont know if they're any more or less successful whacking anorexia with the bible than they are with alcoholism

 

[Dancing David]

I was diagnosed at age five with mild Autism at the Ming Quong Center back in the relative dark ages (born in 1968 when few knew what Autism was) and was then treated pallatively with behavior modification to do all the 'normal' things like speak, read, and live like any other person, at somewhat delayed rate at a special school. For example, I wasn't fully verbal until about sevenish to nine.

In Junior High I was mainstreamed into the public school system with help from Special Education. After high school graduation, I went to junior college and got an AA in journalism. Physical illness set in after graduation, killing any career, leaving me on SSD but that's not relative to this post.

Now the Autism basically 'hides' in my back pocket.

Wow, 1968, that was back when most kids would have been put in the special room with no skills training.

Wow!

 

[Dancing David]

I wouldn't know how to demonstrate it in terms that could be tested. I am not a doctor. My whole point is to find a professional who could explain it in terms I can understand. I stated my beliefs and those beliefs come from my past experiences. I don't mind being wrong about something but I wanna have a good reason to reverse my position on it.

And yet you do not even have a position other than "I think that self pity is the cause of anorexia", you base this upon your own experience with substance abuse.

Anecdotal and unrelated. And not much of a case, you experience with substance abuse translates to people with anorexia nervosa. how?

1. Whatever that means. There are many authorities that I don't believe. You even said yourself that there is some quackery in the mental health profession but I agree, that just like doctors, that doesn't make the whole profession quacks.

And then you said you wanted a 'certified mental health professional', did you not?

2. I did explain my ideas in the OP.

You haven't even explained what self pity is and why yo think it causes anorexia.

3. Its not a theory its a hypothesis, if you can even call it that. Its not like I'm submitting a paper to a scientific journal.

Uh sure, you came is saying the cause of anorexia was self pity just like addiction. That is a theory or a hypothesis, and you can't support it.

4. I'll admit I don't know that much about schizophrenia but from what I do know it doesn't sound like something that you can just will away.

And your evidence that you can just will away anorexia, if you read what i said about biological effects on behavior you will see that there are three domains, exclusively from organic dysregulation, stress related dysregulation and dysregulation form conditioning. What make you think that there are not anorexia that fit into all three categories?
Your lack of research and personal opinion?

5. I can be stubborn at times. But I have dealt with Alcoholism and I see many similarities with it and Anorexia. I feel that if anyone can stop drinking then these people should be able to start eating.

You claim that you have 'Alcoholism' with a capital A, and I can't assess you on that, but...
That doesn't mean squat about anything doing with anorexia, it is about you and substance abuse, not anorexia.

6. The burden of proof is not on me. It is entirely possible that there is a God but I'm not gonna buy into it until I see proper evidence for it.

Nope you presented your theory that anorexia nervose was based in self pity.
It could be that it is, but you have presented no evidence whatsoever.

I only stated the opinion that I don't believe it is a disease like cancer is.

You satted a whole lot more than that as well.

You stated yourself that someone can be conditioned to become Anorexic

I stated that is one of the paths to dysregulation, i did not state it was the end all be all, now did I?

but you also stated that there are cases where some people have an actual neurological dysfunction. How do you tell the difference?

If they respond to CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy), if they have other severe symptoms of other disorders such as depression. You can't tell, you can only guess and treat.
causation is always speculative in mental health. Even with PET scans.

I honestly wanna hear a professional point of view. If you just wanna say that I'm a jerk then thank you, it took me a long time to get that esteemed honor.

See I said I have insulted you and then stopped, have a complex?

I apologize.

There are varied opinions amongst professionals, the mainstream consensus is that mental illness is biopsychosocial, that there are biological basis, they impact the psychology of interaction and social functioning. In all people living with a mental illness, they are going to have a mix of all three, some will have higher impact from biology (paranoid schizophrenics can usually hold jobs, disorganized schizophrenics have a much harder time), one person will develop symptoms under mild stress and other only under very high stress. Some people have mild symptoms that are mainly a product of life style and conditioning. (IE mild phobia), other will need medication and heavy behavioral therapy.

There are no absolutes, even in schizophrenia there are five major types and likely to be many, many sub-groups.

Anorexia nervosa is a strange beast, it partakes of both symptomology of depression and anxiety. And the mainstream view is that as in any mental illness there are those who have a high biological component, those who have a medium biological component and those that have a low component. This then plays out in stress as well, those with a high biological component will exhibit symptoms regardless of stress levels, medium biological components will show higher symptoms under higher stress, mild component will show symptoms under high stress. Then all categories will have various conditioning components as well. So even before you start into any other analysis you are going to have at least those three components, biological basis, response to stress and conditioned component.

So depending on just these three spectrums we can say that those who have a low biological component, low stress component and low to medium behavioral component are more likely to respond to just a behavioral therapy intervention with life style changes.

As the other scaled go up the success of behavioral intervention alone is likely to go down and the benefit of medication to increase. So in the mainstream it depends upon the cluster of symptoms and their severity, mild symptoms and high life functioning, likely to benefit from just CBT. The more severe the symptoms, the more mixed with other disorders and the more likely that medication and CBT will be beneficial.

But then the subtypes of people who practice therapy and resist sending their clients for psychiatry is there and then there is the strangeness that is the anorexia treatment community itself.

 

[Dancing David]

This is what is getting frustrating. Did you notice the question mark at the end of my sentence? I put it there for a reason. You seem to wanna put me down rather than answer an honest question.

No perhaps you are not used to the JREF, you have a conjoined thought,
1. That narcissism is the cause of anorexia.
2. Is narcissism biological?

I am questioning your assumption that you have of anorexia as self pity, self absorption and narcissism.

I have stated this before and called it into question, you seem to just be restating your premise that narcissism is the cause of anorexia, that is what I am questioning.

I would say it is likely that if the self absorption exists it is a co-occurent symtoms of the obsession with body image.

 

[gnome]

I would say that anorexia is a sign of self-disrespect... in fact the opposite of narcissism.

 

[Kariboo]

Maybe I should have said "countries or regions that suffer from famine or food shortages". That is another reason that fueled my belief that its not a disease in the sense that cancer is a disease. I would very much like to find some information on that. Thanks.

Well again there are no studies in those regions that I am aware of. So best we can say is that we don't know if anorexia exists in those areas.

I also think it would be kind of awkward to do those studies (hi are you starving because of the famine or because you have anorexia?)

 

[Kariboo]

I don't have to prove anything. I want to see a certified mental health professional give me a good reason to believe it is a disease.

Disease is a vague term:

A disease or medical condition is an abnormal condition of an organism that impairs bodily functions, associated with specific symptoms and signs.

In human beings, "disease" is often used more broadly to refer to any condition that causes pain, dysfunction, distress, social problems, and/or death to the person afflicted, or similar problems for those in contact with the person. In this broader sense, it sometimes includes injuries, disabilities, disorders, syndromes, infections, isolated symptoms, deviant behaviors, and atypical variations of structure and function (Wiki)

So just based on that Anorexia would be a disease.

ETA

From a dictionary

1. a disordered or incorrectly functioning organ, part, structure, or system of the body resulting from the effect of genetic or developmental errors, infection, poisons, nutritional deficiency or imbalance, toxicity, or unfavorable environmental factors; illness; sickness; ailment.
2. any abnormal condition in a plant that interferes with its vital physiological processes, caused by pathogenic microorganisms, parasites, unfavorable environmental, genetic, or nutritional factors, etc.
3. any harmful, depraved, or morbid condition, as of the mind or society: His fascination with executions is a disease.
4. decomposition of a material under special circumstances: tin disease.

This would also include anorexia.

You claim that anorexia is different from other diseases, which is correct, since a lot of diseases differ from each other. However based on the above it seems that it can easily be classified as a disease.