Is Anorexia really a disease?

[LissaLysikan]

ADHD is so 10 years ago, it is autism now baby.

Unrelated disorders, with different indicators.

 

[tesscaline]

If they do, then it should be considered a Innate Genetic disorder. Until then, we must assume it is all in the individuals mind's, and it needs to stop

Please look up "false dichotomy".

 

[Nosi]

So prove the biological basis for Autism Spectrum disorder, or Schizophrenia.

Drugs can normalize brain function in Schizophrenia. I don't know that much about Autism, although I should, I'm mildly Autistic. I do take medications for bi-polar, depression, and mood disorder.

 

[Nosi]

I wonder: Do anorexics actually see themselves different in the mirror? Or do they see what they want to see?

Body dismorphic disorder often goes hand in hand with bulimia & anorexia. Someone with body dismorphic disorder sees oneself as something different than what is reflected in the mirror. An example could be a hideously fat or fat reflection, or perhaps a plump one even when they really look like a starvation victim in reality.

 

[MysteryMammal]

Body dismorphic disorder often goes hand in hand with bulimia & anorexia. Someone with body dismorphic disorder sees oneself as something different than what is reflected in the mirror. An example could be a hideously fat or fat reflection, or perhaps a plump one even when they really look like a starvation victim in reality.

This is a really good point. Anecdote time! A few years back I often hung out with a woman who was battling anorexia. She was very, very skinny in the lacking normal body fat kind of way. At the time she was in an out-patient treatment program. She came up to me and said something along the lines of "I wish I could look like you." I was in very good shape at the time in the healthy/athletic range for body fat. I took her statement as her wishing to put on weight. "No! No! No! I want to be thin like you!"

That was the first time that body dysmorphic disorder really clicked in my head. She saw me as most people would, but she saw herself almost as though through a fun house mirror. It never occurred to me before that people with bdd didn't see everyone as fat, or imperfect, or whatever.

As for the disease/disorder debate: It's a disorder. As mentioned before, it has parallels to OCD. If you've ever known someone with OCD, you would understand that although the disorder presents as behavior, the person can't just "will" themselves not to do it. Often times the brain is so thoroughly convinced that cessation of the behavior will result in disaster/death. With anorexia you can see similar thought processes: cessation of the rigid and often ritualized food behaviors will result in (in the mind of the afflicted) all of the dangers obesity brings, being unlovable/becoming a pariah, etc. And remember, in their mind they are convinced that these things will happen. It's not that they suspect or assume, they know, despite all evidence to the contrary, they will die/be miserable for life should they not do what is killing them.

 

[paximperium]

Drugs can normalize brain function in Schizophrenia. I don't know that much about Autism, although I should, I'm mildly Autistic. I do take medications for bi-polar, depression, and mood disorder.

Drugs never totally "normalize" schizophrenics. It may control the symptoms and the patients may be able to compensate for it but realitywise, their though processes are never totally normal.

 

[Dancing David]

If they do, then it should be considered a Innate Genetic disorder. Until then, we must assume it is all in the individuals mind's, and it needs to stop

There is no mind except by common usage of the word, there is only the brain.

About as effective as teeling someone with OCD to just stop it, or someone with depression to snap out of it.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Unrelated disorders, with different indicators.

But it is all about what the in diagnosis is. ADHD is not the current hot diagnosis.

 

[Dancing David]

Well, there are diagnoses and then there are diagnoses.

There is so much shopping when it comes to children and treatment in particular, the parents going looking until they find someone (usually not an MD) who gives them the label they want.

Six years ago it was bipolar and now autism spectrum disorder, I predict that Tourettes will the the next hot one.

the issue for me is that there are also sooooooo many people who play diagnosis by the internet.

just like here on the forum, we have had people assert that they think they have Asperger's or that someone else has ASD, but they have no real understanding of the criteria and fuctional imparirment. And so it goes...

The real deal is that the disorders in the DSM sure appear to exist and many of them seem to have a biological component. Diagnosis often follows treatment rather than the other way around especially when you get into mood disorders with mood congruent features, and the bugaboo of substance abuse.

 

[Dancing David]

Drugs can normalize brain function in Schizophrenia. I don't know that much about Autism, although I should, I'm mildly Autistic. I do take medications for bi-polar, depression, and mood disorder.

Hi, did a doctor give you that label. Of autism?



Autism can not be treated with medication, it can be treated pallativly throughe arly childhood intervention to teach the skills needed to cope with the dsiorder. And if someone has co-morbid sympoms of another disorder, then they can be treated pallativly as well.

Did you show the loss of language skills aquired by age two as you approached age 3?

 

[Epok]

This is a really good point. Anecdote time! A few years back I often hung out with a woman who was battling anorexia. She was very, very skinny in the lacking normal body fat kind of way. At the time she was in an out-patient treatment program. She came up to me and said something along the lines of "I wish I could look like you." I was in very good shape at the time in the healthy/athletic range for body fat. I took her statement as her wishing to put on weight. "No! No! No! I want to be thin like you!"

That was the first time that body dysmorphic disorder really clicked in my head. She saw me as most people would, but she saw herself almost as though through a fun house mirror. It never occurred to me before that people with bdd didn't see everyone as fat, or imperfect, or whatever.

As for the disease/disorder debate: It's a disorder. As mentioned before, it has parallels to OCD. If you've ever known someone with OCD, you would understand that although the disorder presents as behavior, the person can't just "will" themselves not to do it. Often times the brain is so thoroughly convinced that cessation of the behavior will result in disaster/death. With anorexia you can see similar thought processes: cessation of the rigid and often ritualized food behaviors will result in (in the mind of the afflicted) all of the dangers obesity brings, being unlovable/becoming a pariah, etc. And remember, in their mind they are convinced that these things will happen. It's not that they suspect or assume, they know, despite all evidence to the contrary, they will die/be miserable for life should they not do what is killing them.

So there is something wrong with the brain that causes a narcissistic behavior? I know a lot of overweight people who don't like it but they just deal with it. Its hard to have sympathy for someone who spends most of their day looking in a mirror even if something is going wrong inside their head. But why don't you see people in third world countries with anorexia?

 

[Epok]

Beyond the insulting tone of Dancing David, which I will not excuse him for (although I understand the passion of someone who works against the bigotry of the public directed at the mentally ill) I have yet to see anything that he has written to be wrong. In fact he has presented evidence which you are lacking.

He has not and never claimed to be a Doctor so you insinuation is not warranted. Your dismissal of the evidence is also not warranted. You say "inconclusive" but I doubt you actually read any of it or frankly I doubt you even understand it. You are ignorant of this subject. Completely and utterly so and your "there is a lot of woo in psychology" is a beyond retarded ad hominem. You know this how? What does Psychiatry say about this? What about the Neuropsychiatry and neurobiology of these people? Or did someone say something you heard?

There is NO test for schizophrenia except via similar criteria used on Anorexia Nervosa and Alcoholism. A PET Scan and DNA test are not part of any psychiatric diagnoses. Your friend was likely involved in a study. Psychiatry and psychology is an evolving field. The criterias changes and we understand so much of how the brain works.

This defensive whiny play is not exactly very "skeptical" or even open minded. You can either learn something or close your mind. Your choice.

Now that I have time to get to you. I never said that Dancing David claimed to be a doctor, he said he worked in the mental health profession. I doubted that claim because of his unprofessional attitude. I don't work in the mental health profession so I can be as arrogant and smug as I wanna be. Its up to the mental health professionals to give me a reason to care.

 

[Epok]

So prove the biological basis for Autism Spectrum disorder, or Schizophrenia.

I don't have to prove anything. I want to see a certified mental health professional give me a good reason to believe it is a disease. When I wrote the OP I stated my opinion and what I understood about the disorder. People wanna take offense to what I said without even understanding what I was trying to get at. A true professional wouldn't get emotional and start insulting me for my opinion because they know as soon as they did I wouldn't listen to a damn thing they had to say.

 

[MikeMangum]

Neither disorders nor alcoholism or drug addiction are a simple matter of "just quitting", and anyone who says otherwise is, quite frankly, deluding himself.

Well, yes and no. Quitting smoking or other drugs can very well be done by "just quitting". It is difficult, but it can indeed be done. I have no idea how that relates to a mental disorder.

 

[MikeMangum]

This is the biggest blind spot of psychiatry: (1) people have financial or social problems => (2) people feel sad, as a perfectly healthy and natural response to the circumstances => (3) people are diagnosed as having a "mental disorder" and given medicine to chemically remove the sadness => return to square one, infinitely.

This is one thing I've noticed. Anything other than being completely happy has now become a disease. Someone cheats on their spouse causing their spouse to leave them; they are now "depressed" and require medication. Whether the doc really thinks that depression is a valid diagnosis or not, if approached by a client are they really going to turn them away? I've seen this sort of discussion before, and it was basically Patient:"Doctor, I'm depressed." Doctor:"Well, if you feel depressed, let's try [name of SSRI here] and see how you feel" . If someone is unhappy (as opposed to depressed) due entirely to their own choices, telling them they have a "disease" removes much of their own sense of responsibility for the condition they are in.

Being sad is an important behavioral feedback. "I treated all of my friends like crap and I don't have friends anymore; that makes me feel sad. Maybe, in the future, I should not treat my friends like crap."

 

[paximperium]

This is one thing I've noticed. Anything other than being completely happy has now become a disease. Someone cheats on their spouse causing their spouse to leave them; they are now "depressed" and require medication. Whether the doc really thinks that depression is a valid diagnosis or not, if approached by a client are they really going to turn them away? I've seen this sort of discussion before, and it was basically Patient:"Doctor, I'm depressed." Doctor:"Well, if you feel depressed, let's try [name of SSRI here] and see how you feel" . If someone is unhappy (as opposed to depressed) due entirely to their own choices, telling them they have a "disease" removes much of their own sense of responsibility for the condition they are in.

Being sad is an important behavioral feedback. "I treated all of my friends like crap and I don't have friends anymore; that makes me feel sad. Maybe, in the future, I should not treat my friends like crap."

In conclusion, you have no idea what you're talking about. Being sad is not being depressed. I find it exceedingly insulting that people still have this throwback mindset towards mental illness.

The rather haphazard practice of family docs in dolling out SSRIs does not invalidate the severity and abnormality of depression and a multitude of psychiatric illnesses. If you think being depressed is just "being sad", you are beyond ignorant.

 

[paximperium]

Well, yes and no. Quitting smoking or other drugs can very well be done by "just quitting". It is difficult, but it can indeed be done. I have no idea how that relates to a mental disorder.

Really? Do tell. How do you "just quit"?
Oh, because YOU can do it, it invalidates the fact that some can never do it. Well, I guess you are lucky to not have the disorder. Good for you.

 

[Dancing David]

So there is something wrong with the brain that causes a narcissistic behavior?

Are you assuimng that is the cause of the anorexia mervosa?
That is rather a huge leap, is it not?

I know a lot of overweight people who don't like it but they just deal with it. Its hard to have sympathy for someone who spends most of their day looking in a mirror even if something is going wrong inside their head. But why don't you see people in third world countries with anorexia?

 

[Dancing David]

I don't have to prove anything. I want to see a certified mental health professional give me a good reason to believe it is a disease. When I wrote the OP I stated my opinion and what I understood about the disorder. People wanna take offense to what I said without even understanding what I was trying to get at. A true professional wouldn't get emotional and start insulting me for my opinion because they know as soon as they did I wouldn't listen to a damn thing they had to say.

I think you are demanding a standard of proof that you won't meet your self.

There are multiple causes or triggers of the spectrum of disorders that cause mental illness.

1. Biological basis of human functions. The brain is a physical organ, if it malfunctions or has dysregulation, then this will create problems in the balanced functioning of the brain. Now drawing conclusions from this is sort of the scientific fine point. There are reasons to assume that schizophrenia is mostly a biological disorder in brain functioning. But short of showing exactly which pathways out of trillions are malfunctioning, you can not have certainty.

2. The biological vulnerabilities of brain functioning: there are times when a 'well functioning' brain can be driven to dysregulation. Lack of sleep for example can cause major hallucinations as can toxin and the like. Many people appear to have vulnerabilities based upon the concept of stress. If you place people in high stress environments, those that have certain vulnerabilities are more likely to display symptoms of disorders. And in fact grief and bereavement would probably fall somewhere in here.

3. Conditioning and associative learning. With the proviso that these are not spiritual processes, these are physical processes that are part of organic brain function. So we have classical operant conditioning and all of its associated paths and spin offs. Every human behavior is learned to some extent, at least those that happen after about six weeks of age. We can develop strange patterns and behaviors based solely upon conditioning in all its varieties. Sop often treatment of mild disorders involves just that changing the patterns of behavior and conditioning.


So we have a spectrum of possible triggers of mental disorders, some such as seizures are assumed to be mostly biiological in nature, orthers like mild anxiety or phobia are more than likely conditioned.

But it is organic and biological all the way so now we get to something it appears that you have stated:

The basis of anorexia nervosa is self absorption, is that right?

Now how do you think you could demonstrate that in terms we could measure of test for?


Then we can get to your fallacies later:

1. Reverse appeal to authority.
2. Lack of application of critical thinking or even explanation of your own ideas.
3. An apparent theory of psychology that you have yet to substantiate or flesh out, that self pity or self absorption causes anorexia.
4. Your anecdotal evidence that there is a test for schizophrenia, so far we have an anecdote where a person who is living with schizophrenia had two tests, but no demonstration that they indicated that the person had schizophrenia or that they were not part of a research study.
5. The application of a double standard where you assume that that there is a biological basis for one mental disorder but not another.
6. A unwillingness to meet the burden of proof and special pleading for your own ideas.

BTW I said former MH professional, and even is I was still doing that, my behavior of the board is not indicative of my professional status.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I don't have to prove anything. I want to see a certified mental health professional give me a good reason to believe it is a disease. When I wrote the OP I stated my opinion and what I understood about the disorder. People wanna take offense to what I said without even understanding what I was trying to get at. A true professional wouldn't get emotional and start insulting me for my opinion because they know as soon as they did I wouldn't listen to a damn thing they had to say.

So in other words you refuse to support the claims you make. Skepticism is very much about evidence and evaluating claims, in this you are failing.