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Hardfire: Szamboti / Chandler / Mackey

Don't take it so personal. I was mostly sighing at Tony. Maybe you haven't followed the discussion, but he's had it explained to him, in person, solely for his benefit by numerous posters here. And he still doesn't get it.

Again, this is why "debating" the Truth Movement is futile. Their only weapon is dogged refusal to accept reality.

I welcome Tony to prove me wrong about that last statement by coming to terms with the tilt prior to collapse. Or the inward bowing several minutes before collapse. Most people, having seen actual photographs of these phenomena, don't need to be told a hundred times, but the Truth Movement is special in this respect.

Ryan, I would say you are the one who denies reality.

Your example in your paper on the amount of potential energy used in collapsing the building is ridiculous on it's face to anyone with a strong technical background. You show an example where the collapse acceleration would be 1.7 m/s/s and then go through the math to show that the difference between it and the rate of gravity (9.8 m/s/s) is the resistance of 8.1m/s/s and that it is equal to 81% of the building's potential energy, which would have been used in the destruction.

This little manipulation sounds impressive at first unless one is keen enough to realize that the building structure was designed to hold several times 100% of the potential energy.

The reality is that using the resistance to the continuous acceleration which occurred is not valid to use as a measure of the energy required, as it is not correlated to a calculated amount of energy which would be required to collapse the building. For instance, if demolition devices were used to remove resistance then the actual resistance to free fall acceleration experienced does not account for that.

There is only one way a lesser amount of energy could do the job and that is with concentrated periodic impacts/dynamic loads which require deceleration, which unfortunately for your story is not observed. Your own theory requires huge decelerations from jolts but you don't have any evidence of them, so you then spin a story that the columns weren't involved and the entire upper block fell on the floor slabs, or that there were lots of little jolts, without explaining that the aggregate of these little jolts would have to cause the same velocity loss as one large one due to the same energy dissipation.

These are just some of several misleading type of arguments that you make, and it is hard for me to imagine that you don't know better if you are actually a mechanical engineer.

I am wondering when the majority of honest posters here, who may not suspect the misleading nature of these arguments and/or just don't know better, are going to start figuring it out.
 
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This little manipulation sounds impressive at first unless one is keen enough to realize that the building structure was designed to hold several times 100% of the potential energy.

This statement is sheer gibberish. Loads are a measure of force, not energy.

The reality is that using the acceleration which occurred is not valid to use as a measure of the energy required, as it is not correlated to a calculated amount of energy which would be required to collapse the building. For instance, if demolition devices were used to remove resistance then the actual acceleration does not account for that.

The amount of work required to collapse the structure is highly variable. It depends on exactly how pieces were hit, how the structure degraded as the collapse progressed, etc. This is essentially unpredictable due to the chaos of collapse. We do, however, have computed upper bounds on this required energy, and found them to be well below the available gravitational energy. As you know.

What I computed was an estimate of how much energy was actually absorbed, not how much was needed. Given that the amount is enormous, to adjust it significantly requires an unrealistic amount of explosives. It's a simple argument.

This is just one of several misleading type of arguments that you make, and it is hard for me to imagine that you don't know better.

I am wondering when the majority of honest posters here, who may not suspect the misleading nature of these arguments and/or just don't know better, are going to start figuring it out.

This from the guy who says there was no tilt before collapse, despite bringing his own video that clearly showed it happening? Wow.
 
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This statement is sheer gibberish. Loads are a measure of force, not energy.



The amount of work required to collapse the structure is highly variable. It depends on exactly how pieces were hit, how the structure degraded as the collapse progressed, etc. This is essentially unpredictable due to the chaos of collapse. We do, however, have computed upper bounds on this required energy, and found them to be well below the available gravitational energy. As you know.

What I computed was an estimate of how much energy was actually absorbed, not how much was needed. Given that the amount is enormous, to adjust it significantly requires an unrealistic amount of explosives. It's a simple argument.



This from the guy who says there was no tilt before collapse, despite bringing his own video that clearly showed it happening? Wow.

Talk about gibberish. Of course, you have no real analysis to back up anything you say concerning collapse initiation and propagation including whether the tilt occurred at onset or after the building dropped vertically for several stories.

Your arguments are misleading and obviously cannot be backed by observation and rigorous analysis. In many places making these types of arguments is called sophistry.
 
I would bet a years pay that you can't get a scale model to initiate a global collapse with one wall bowed inward and then propagate without a jolt.

Hey Tony.

Wow... and you bring up scale and then ignore it in one sentence.

Heres the challenge. Create the scale model so that it accurately reflects the conditions in the towers. Just do the math. Any scale that is reasonable to build. Say 10 stories...

make it 1 1/10th the size... simple and easy. Now go and do the math and find out what that is rather a major pain in the ass...

why is it that truthers don't understand scale? I mean we have seen cardboard boxes, lemons, pizza boxes, and tons of uneducated ill informed twoofs on youtube who have NO idea... oh and I can't leave out the snowpacked towers video either...
 
I would bet a years pay that you can't get a scale model to initiate a global collapse with one wall bowed inward and then propagate without a jolt.

Medium length version - just right.

Heiwa, Gage, Chandler et al treat the upper and lower WTC columns, joists and slab structures as homogeneous lumps of material and believe the smaller lump could not have crushed the larger lump, CD must have been used.

Tony Szamboti believes that if the smaller upper block columns fell axially onto the larger lower block columns, there should have been a "jolt" at columns impact and the lower block columns would have arrested the collapse. Since the collapse was not arrested, and TS did not see a " jolt", TS believes CD must have been used​

But That Is Not What Happened. This Is What Happened:
- BasqueArch, Arch as in Architect licensed 30 years

1) WTC2. (and WTC1 similar) The east wall bowed and collapsed first . We know this because the building began the tilt that direction.

2)The east wall and upper block pivoted (tilted) down . The tilting upper mass applied a horizontal torque (not vertical compression force) to the remaining heat and impact damaged vertical columns that bent them, and the columns fractured at the point where the columns bent. When all the columns fractured, the upper mass stopped tilting and fell vertically down, The top upper block columns punched through the lower floor slabs.

Before and during WTC2 initial collapse showing 3 foot columns vertical displacement.
[qimg]http://911stories.googlepages.com/ST1.jpg/ST1-full.jpg[/qimg]

3) 128,000 lbs per columns square foot (static load only) landed onto the 2.5” to 4” thick floor slab x 14" x 14" area design loaded at 330 lb / SF and failed (128,000 lb/sf column load > 330 lb/sf slab design load ). When all the columns above fractured , the block stopped tilting, and the columns punched through the slab below. The displaced columns above did not hit the off center columns below.

4) We know the floor slabs failed first before the columns failed because of the visual evidence . Had the columns below failed before the floor slabs, the columns would have failed in buckling (or decapitated by CD) with portions of the floor structures still attached to the columns and the perimeter wall assemblies would have fallen vertically nearly “onto its own footprint”. There is no evidence of universal buckling of columns at the column body that would indicate column crushing forces or columns decapitation that would show CD. After the floors pancaked, the unsupported perimeter and core columns failed at the connections and toppled onto the ground.

Picture of WTC1 uncrushed columns, floors failed first then columns toppled outward, not onto “its own footprint” had the load path been axially through the perimeter columns or CD'd.
[qimg]http://www.911myths.com/assets/images/columns.jpg[/qimg]

5) Therefore it doesn’t matter if “ you would find that they all have buckling stresses near the yield stress.” because the columns below did not fail by crushing or CD. They toppled after the floors pancaked past them.

6) Therefore it doesn’t matter if “the 3.00 to 1 factor of safety for the core columns was calculated using Gregory Urich's mass analysis.” because the columns below did not fail by crushing or CD. They toppled after the floors pancaked past them.

7) Therefore it doesn’t matter if ” the columns on each story were designed to have the same unit stress to preclude differential deflections and floor warpage between the core and perimeter.” because the columns below did not fail by crushing or CD. They toppled after the floors pancaked past them.

and so on ...
...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is great confusion among the masses about Bazant’s collapse theory.

“For our purpose, we may assume that all the impact forces go into the columns and are distributed among them equally. Unlikely though such a distribution may be, it is nevertheless the most optimistic hypothesis to make because the resistance of the building to the impact is, for such a distribution, the highest. If the building is found to fail under a uniform distribution of the impact forces, it would fail under any other distribution.” - Bazant​

[qimg]http://911review.com/coverup/fantasy/imgs/figure4.gif[/qimg]
From Bazant - Fig. 4. Scenario of tilting of upper part of building ~South Tower - showing horizontal bending forces and displacement of upper and lower columns.

From Bazant’s first paper.
http://www.civil.northwestern.edu/people/bazant/PDFs/Papers/405.pdf



Summary:
WTC1,2 failed by gravity collapse only.
On the weakest wall the perimeter columns failed, the upper stories tilted (WTC2), the remainder of the columns fractured, the tilt stopped , the upper stories fell straight down, the displaced columns above punched through the floor slab below - not hit the columns below - the floor slabs pancaked, and the unsupported perimeter and core columns then toppled to the ground.​

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You can’t reason someone out of something they were not reasoned into. -Swift[/QUOTE]
 
Talk about gibberish. Of course, you have no real analysis to back up anything you say concerning collapse initiation and propagation including whether the tilt occurred at onset or after the building dropped vertically for several stories.

Your arguments are misleading and obviously cannot be backed by observation and rigorous analysis. In many places making these types of arguments is called sophistry.

Tony. The tilt occured before the upper structure dropped. There are pictures of it in NIST. There is a frame-by-frame analysis by many clever people over at Gregory's forum. There are clear, quantified pictures of the south wall buckling at initiation which leads to the tilt.

This is your Irreducible Delusion. You can't call me misleading or a sophist or whatever, with a straight face, until you and reality are on speaking terms. This is why debating with you is a waste of time -- you simply can't fathom that you've been beaten, or how badly. Trust me, it's extremely bad. Stop digging, stop yapping, start learning.
 
Talk about gibberish. Of course, you have no real analysis to back up anything you say concerning collapse initiation and propagation including whether the tilt occurred at onset or after the building dropped vertically for several stories.

Your arguments are misleading and obviously cannot be backed by observation and rigorous analysis. In many places making these types of arguments is called sophistry.
 
Compare and contrast Tony Szamboti's post from before Mackey answered him and after Mackey answered him.
Before:
The reality is that using the acceleration which occurred is not valid to use as a measure of the energy required, as it is not correlated to a calculated amount of energy which would be required to collapse the building. For instance, if demolition devices were used to remove resistance then the actual acceleration does not account for that.

After:
The reality is that using the resistance to the continuous acceleration which occurred is not valid to use as a measure of the energy required, as it is not correlated to a calculated amount of energy which would be required to collapse the building. For instance, if demolition devices were used to remove resistance then the actual resistance to free fall acceleration experienced does not account for that.

Before:
This is just one of several misleading type of arguments that you make, and it is hard for me to imagine that you don't know better.

After:
These are just some of several misleading type of arguments that you make, and it is hard for me to imagine that you don't know better if you are actually a mechanical engineer.


Tsk, tsk, Tony. It is dishonest to edit your post after someone has already answered it, without noting the changes that you made to it after the fact. You are in no position to lecture anyone about honesty.
 
Tsk, tsk, Tony. It is dishonest to edit your post after someone has already answered it, without noting the changes that you made to it after the fact. You are in no position to lecture anyone about honesty.

He edits out infractionable insults as well, but only after he knows the intended target has seen them. Troll behavior.
 
He edits out infractionable insults as well, but only after he knows the intended target has seen them. Troll behavior.

I have to wonder here how you can jump to the conclusion that any posting and editing is premeditated and that you don't mention the possibility that maybe that is what I wanted to say emotionally and then thought better of it. However, you know the old saying "if the shoe fits,,,".

I am also baffled by this overused and inane "he's a troll" comment I see with many on Internet forums.

I had a public debate with Ryan Mackey and am involved in this debate heavily. So how does that equate to your silly troll category?
 
Compare and contrast Tony Szamboti's post from before Mackey answered him and after Mackey answered him.
Before:


After:


Before:


After:



Tsk, tsk, Tony. It is dishonest to edit your post after someone has already answered it, without noting the changes that you made to it after the fact. You are in no position to lecture anyone about honesty.

Get real. With the speed with which some of my posts are responded to I don't even know they are being answered as I edited. There is nothing dishonest about it.
 
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She did.

And your before and after edits COMPLETELY change the meaning of the response. That is extremely REAL.

especially when you edit, and then do NOT add in a ETA.

Just like how twoofs operate... nice job. Keep up the good work
 
This one just said "Get real" initially.

To see that and respond that quickly you must be sitting watching the screen on this post.

What normal person would be doing that?

It almost sounds like it could be your job. Is it?

Why don't you people just let Ryan answer the questions without all of these inane comments and distractions?
 
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I'm only responding to this now because I've been clogged with work... so sorry if this is repeating anything somebody else covered...

I am simply saying that the tilt does not seem to occur until the upper block has already fallen straight down for several stories. You will have to pardon me if I don't accept the present analysis in the NIST report as it only consists of showing a still that is known to be two to three seconds into the collapse with an assertion then made that the upper section tilted and then dropped.

I also said in the debate that there needs to be a more thorough analysis of just when the tilt in WTC 1's upper block occurred. The devil is in the details and we need to know when it actually occurred. It is not proven that it occurred immediately.

In the Missing Jolt paper we calculate the energy dissipation and resultant velocity loss which should have occurred in the first collision between floors 97 and 99 by finding the elastic and plastic deformation and then buckling of the columns in just those two stories which are on either side of the collision.

I don't know if I've ever made this clear but the NIST report isn't required for every minutia of detail. From what I am reading on this forum the very video you had in your possession at the time of the debate even showed it, and I've seen videos that showed the motion of the tilt on both towers countless times. If as indicated by the posts I'm seeing subsequent to this one you really are in doubt about when the tilt took place... nothing I say is obviously going to convince you otherwise, and I'm not about to spend 30 minutes on a post explaining it to you that I can use this weekend to finish my design work. Just chuck that claim along with your statements about the failure mechanisms of the columns, the "banana peel plumes" and other crazy stuff I've read from your past activity. If you no longer support some of those pat claims... great... but it's the basic errors that have me concerned about your own credibility.

I'll post a response in length if after I see the debate I find anything interesting...
 
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Talk about gibberish. Of course, you have no real analysis to back up anything you say concerning collapse initiation and propagation including whether the tilt occurred at onset or after the building dropped vertically for several stories.


What would induce a tilt to the upper section several stories after collapse initiation?
 
I have tried a couple of multi-page threads and have found that I needn't bother with the posts from Page 2 to the last page.
 
Get real. With the speed with which some of my posts are responded to I don't even know they are being answered as I edited. There is nothing dishonest about it.

I do not believe you, Tony.

Your initial version of post 361 to which I referred was made at 9:23. R.Mackey responded with post 362 at 9:37, 14 minutes later, and there were no intervening posts. So, you cannot honestly claim that posts were coming fast and furious or that you didn't know that he had responded when you edited your post 361 (without noting your edits) at 9:47, a full 24 minutes after your initial version, and a full 10 minutes after R.Mackey's response in 362.

You changed your post substantially after it had been responded to, without even acknowledging the significant edits you made to it. I call that dishonest, and I call your lame claim above dishonest as well.
 

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