9/11-investigator explains the Holocaust

[jmh423]

Bigjamelpro:"Btw, Israel's nukes aren't illegal by any means. Would you like to state how they are illegal by chance? Perhaps quote some international laws? Treaties? Statutes? Wah? You mean actually be coherent?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

1. Last Spring, Rose Gottemoeller, an assistant secretary of state and Washington's chief nuclear arms negotiator, asked Israel to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. Israel refused.

2. The United Nations passed a resolution calling on Israel to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and to submit to inspections. Israel refused.

3. The IAEA asked Israel to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and to submit to inspections. Israel refused.

4. Iran's formal notification to the IAEA of the planned construction of the backup fuel-rod facility underscores that Iran is playing by the rules of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty which Iran has signed.

5. Iran allows IAEA inspections of all its facilities.

6. Contrary to face-saving claims, it appears that the US and Israel were both caught off guard by Iran's announcement. The reasoning is simple. Had the US or Israel announced the existence of he new facility before Iran's notified the IAEA, it would have put Iran on the defensive. As it is now, the US and Israel seem to be playing catch up, casting doubt on the veracity of Israel's claims to "know" that Iran is a nuclear threat.

7. The IAEA and all 16 United States Intelligence Agencies are unanimous in agreement that Iran is not building and does not possess nuclear weapons.

8. In 1986, Mordachai Vanunu blew the whistle and provided photographs showing Israel's clandestine nuclear weapons factory underneath the reactor at Dimona.

9. Israel made the same accusations against Iraq that it is making against Iran, leading up to Israel's bombing of the power station at Osirik. Following the invasion of 2003, international experts examined the ruins of the power station at Osirik and found no evidence of a clandestine weapons factory in the rubble.

10. The United Nations has just released the Goldstone Report, a scathing report which accuses Israel of 37 specific war crimes and crimes against humanity in Gaza earlier this year. Israel has denounced the report as "Anti-Semitic (even though Judge Goldstone is himself Jewish), and the United States will block the report from being referred to the War Crimes Tribunal at the Hague, thereby making the US Government an accessory after-the-fact.

Reference: http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/9qmtn/israel_is_full_of_it/

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

And yet it seems that you can't turn on a cable news show, listen to talk radio or open up a newspaper these days without seeing Charles Krauthammer, or hearing Michael Medved or some other such zio-shill clamoring for the US to jump headlong into another costly destructive murderous war with Iran.....These neo-con traitors are shameless, and as usual 50%+ of the mindless US public is cluless about the facts I posted above..

Edited, breach of Rule 4.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Locknar

 

[jmh423]

Btw, Israel's nukes aren't illegal by any means. Would you like to state how they are illegal by chance? Perhaps quote some international laws? Treaties? Statutes? Wah? You mean actually be coherent?

See: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5165742&postcount=1841

And yet it seems you can't turn on a TV or radio these days without hearing Charles Krauthammer or Michael Medved clamoring for another destructive war with Iran....Their constant whining about the dangers of Iran are almost comical when you consider the facts above...

Edited, breach of Rule 4.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Locknar

 

[Simon39759]

But Israel is a stable democracy; it has had Nuke for decades and never used them.
I wouldn't trust the Iranian theocrats to reach such a level of restraint so concern about them acquiring nuclear is legitimate. Also; while ideally, I'd love to see any nuclear weapon disappear from the face of the earth, it's too late to stop Israel (or Pakistan; I am more worried about THEM having nukes that I am about Israel).

 

[jmh423]

But Israel is a stable democracy; it has had Nuke for decades and never used them.
I wouldn't trust the Iranian theocrats to reach such a level of restraint so concern about them acquiring nuclear is legitimate. Also; while ideally, I'd love to see any nuclear weapon disappear from the face of the earth, it's too late to stop Israel (or Pakistan; I am more worried about THEM having nukes that I am about Israel).

Bill Kristol couldn't have said it better!! Kudos mate..

http://truthalliance.net/Archive/News/tabid/67/ID/3669/WMD-All-Over-Again.aspx

Last week’s revelation that Iran has a second uranium enrichment plant near Qom that had not been declared to International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) inspectors has increased the likelihood of war even though Tehran appears to have been in compliance with the Nuclear Proliferation Treaty requirement to report the introduction of new fissile material into a facility within 180 days. Iran also quickly agreed to UN inspection for the new facility, but those seeking a confrontation appear to have the upper hand. Obama, conveniently IGNORING ISRAEL'S NUCLEAR ARSENAL, declared last Friday that “Iran is breaking rules that all nations must follow.” Following the lead offered by Obama, the British poodle quickly yapped, with Prime Minister Gordon Brown asserting that he was “shocked and angered.” In a subsequent interview the UK Foreign Minister David Miliband declared that Britain would not rule out a military option."

Endless war for endless peace, eh fellas? When is the last time Iran or Persia rolled their military into another country? In the 13th century, maybe.... When was the last time Israel rolled their US requisitioned tanks into one? Last month! Give us all a break and for gods sake cut the crap. ENOUGH!!

Post edited, breach of Rule 4.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Locknar

 

[jmh423]

But Israel is a stable democracy.

LOL....Tell that to the Palistinian refugees locked up in their open air prisons in Gaza and the West Bank surrounded by rabid lunitic "settlers" and the brave US outfitted IDF warriors who are using them & their children for target practice daily....Again, give us all a break mate..The cat is WAY out of the bag on these birds...Thanks

 

[headscratcher4]

I am no defender of Israel...but if they've not signed the Nuclear Non-proliferation treaty, how are any weapons they may have developed illegal? THey may be dangerous, they may be problematic, but illegal? What law, treaty that Israel subscribes to are they inviolation of? What agreements? Wherease, right or wrong...and I think you can make a case that Iran can if it wants to develop nuclear weapons... Iran's issue is that they are seemingly in violation of a number of agreements that they explicitly made regarding nuclear weapons.

HOWEVER: all of this is a derail. It has, as pointed out, nothing to do with the theme of this thread...and there are lots of other thread you can go to to babble about Palistine, Gaza, Israel and whatever universal conspiracies you like...This thread was specifically about the factual basis of the holocaust...which after 47 pages and lots of looney ramblings by 9/11 and others, remains pretty well in tact...if for no other reason than 9/11 and yourself rarely answer questions or address issues raised, merely flit on to some other issue in an effort to distract, deflect and disregard.

Finally -- why so proud of your ignorance. Someday, you say, you'll get around to reading a book or two so you'll be as schooled as Wolf. Why wait till someday? The library is full of great sources...orgininal as well as analytical. The internet...if you can get past Stormfront and the lure of neo-nazi lies that those sites seem to hold for someone like you...is also full of great orginal sources.

BTW, as noted above by me...the history of the holocaust and its fact is not based upon the witness statements or the testimony of victims that you would considered biased. It is almost entirely based upon the evidence the German's themselves created. The records of camps, train schedules, lists of names, decrees establishing Ghettos, decrees requiring Jews to report for transportation to the East, the Nurenburg laws, the Marshal Law decrees of the occupying germans, their own photos, thier reports, their architectual plans of camps, the Wansee conference, Himmlar's Poznan speech, Hitler's own words and threats. In short, we know the Holocaust exists because the Nazi's themselves tell us it did, and do so with great pride.

You need not waste your time on Jewish testimony, just spend a little time with the Germans, they'll tell you all you need to know.

 

[woolfe99]

Wolff Said:"Please name one single historian who claims that 6 million Jews were gassed (notice I said gassed, not killed.) If you are unable to do so, I suggest you actually read a book or two about this subject about which you are publicly opining lest you risk making a fool of yourself even more so than you already have."

Woolfe
Thank you soooo much. Lord knows I wouldn't want to risk all that!! And I did notice you said "gassed not killed"... Where do I order my super deluxe leather bound Holocaust encyclopedia set?

You malign and sneer at the idea of actually reading about a subject that you are expressing opinions about publicly?

As I said from the beginning I'm no expert on this subject nor do I want to spend countless hours learning the intricacies of exactly how each individual Jew was killed between '40-'45, whether soap or lampshades were made from them etc ....

Not only are you no expert, you aren't even an amateur. You aren't even casually interested in the history. Which I think is perfectly fine, for one who isn't going to express opinion about a subject.

You need not know how "how each individual Jew was killed." What are you, 14 years old? Grow up. The fact is your "6 million gassed" piece of idiocy reveals that you have not cracked a single book on this subject. You are raising questions about a historical narrative that you know literally nothing about. You can therefore drop the act of pretending to be objective on this topic, as your sole source of information is quite clearly a few articles on denier websites. And I doubt you have even read terribly many of those, just enough to gather a few soundbites ("soap" and "lampshades") to use in your trolling hobby.

What I find curious is the absolute insane hatred that is spewed out by this rabid pack of super deluxe Holo-Historians who have dominated this thread, directed towards me or ANYONE who questions the facts of their favorite subject. Wolfy get yourself a life mate, you are taking this thing too seriously sport..I'm Irish, and the filthy limeys practiced their tactics of torture and mass murder land theft and harassment on us for hundreds of years before they lit out on the rest of the world, yet I'm not lobbying to make sure there is a potato famine memorial in the tourist district of every major US city, and if there was one I wouldn't pay a quarter to get in. Let it go champ, it's over...

Get a life, eh? Well gee, I guess I was wrong all along. Only eggheads actually read, you know, books...and stuff. All the cool kids learn everything they need to know off crank websites.

- woolfe

 

[Simon39759]

Endless war for endless peace, eh fellas? When is the last time Iran or Persia rolled their military into another country? In the 13th century, maybe....

Iranian troops intervened in the Lebanon civil war. And the Iranian government initially founded and still is one of the two powers controlling the Hizbullah.

LOL....Tell that to the Palistinian refugees locked up in their open air prisons in Gaza and the West Bank surrounded by rabid lunitic "settlers" and the brave US outfitted IDF warriors who are using them & their children for target practice daily....Again, give us all a break mate..The cat is WAY out of the bag on these birds...Thanks

What about you go and discuss the subject here?
Seriously; I'd be grateful.

 

[jmh423]

You need not waste your time on Jewish testimony, just spend a little time with the Germans, they'll tell you all you need to know.

If the testimony of the Germans was coerced by torture or other such means, as some on the so called "denier" side claim, those statements are utterly worthless.....I'll look into it further when I get some time. I have gone back and read this whole thread and I really don't think that any of you professional holocaust "scholars" have come close to proving 911 Investigator's premises wrong. 20 to one and you and yours have failed miserably. I am not saying he's right or that you are wrong but no real proof has been tendered as of yet....Cheers

 

[headscratcher4]

Off topic again:

"I'm not lobbying to make sure there is a potato famine memorial in the tourist district of every major US city..."

In what way is the Irish potato famine unrecognized or remembered? I remember reading about it in American History in high school...where we were taught that British colonial and land policies in Ireland directly contributed to causing the great potato famine where hundreds of thousands if not more Irish died and also resulted in the great flood of Irish immigration mostly to America.

Every Irish American I know knows about it -- they know the had family that died in it, they know that many of their ancestors fled Ireland because of it, and it is one of the things that leads to a continuing hatred/disdane for England and what essentially turned out to be a british policy tantamount to ethnic cleansing. Every American History survey book talks about it. Every modern Irish history book talks about it. If you go to Ireland, you can visit sites...work-houses, etc. -- directly related to it. I seem to remember monuments at a couple of Irish ports talking about all of the Irish who embarked there and immigrated as a result of the famine.

So, if I know all of this and I'm not particularly well read on Irish history and just a casual study of American history (in high school), how is the Irish potato famine unknown and how is it not being fully recognized for the devastation it was, the deaths that it caused, the harm it did to Ireland and the Irish? The fact that you are casually writing about it and throwing it into this thread as some kind of proof ( the old "the Jews make their suffering so much more than others..." line of argument), suggest that it isn't a particularly hidden of forgotten piece of history.

In fact, if I'm not mistaken, if you go to Ellis Island in New York, I suspect you will find in the immigration museum there a whole section on the Irish immigration and in it you will find many references to the evil that was the potato famine.

The fact of the holocaust is not a game of one-upsmanship in history. The holocaust, like Stalins murder of millions, like Mao's murder of millions, like Pol Pot, like the potato famine, like the destruction of native American culture by Spainards and other Europeans are all singular events and are recognized by most moderately literate and educated people to do so.

The death of Jews by the hands of the Nazis has many unique facets that make it in some ways unique -- specifically the combination of policy plus the mechanization of the death apparatus -- i.e. creating death factories. That is why it is partucularly interesting and relevant today because technology has empowered us with so many new and horrible ways to inflict suffering and pain.

But its uniqueness of time, place, victims and methodology in no way diminishes the suffering of other peoples subjected to equally cruel though different policies and machineries of death.

By studying and understanding the holocaust, for instance, in no way diminishes the repulsion that any civilized person should have for the policies of Stalin that lead to the starvation deaths of tens of millions of Russians and Ukranians.

We can and should....and I would argue do...honor and seek to understand both and to expose all acts of tyranny for the evil they do

Once again, I come to the core question to you: why so proud of your ignorance? I guarantee you that a little reading on the Holocaust, on Stalin, on Mao, on the Irish Potato Famine will not be a waste of time. Being proud of your ignorance, knowing what you know and not thinking beyond that, that seems to me to be a big waste of time.

More to the point, it leaves you incredibly vulnerable to manipulation. You have demonstrated that you've practically no judgement or filter when it comes to relating the little tidbits of information you think you know. You see it, it fits your world view and you spout it...and the rest be damned if there is a mountain of evidence that says your wrong. I think you see yourself as sort of a Galalio fighting against an orthodox establishment here...saying to yourself : "it still turns." But in fact, you have let your self be the tool of a vile orthodox trapped in place unable to see that the world does indeed revolve around the sun.

As Wolf says, grow up.

 

[headscratcher4]

If the testimony of the Germans was coerced by torture or other such means, as some on the so called "denier" side claim, those statements are utterly worthless.....I'll look into it further when I get some time. I have gone back and read this whole thread and I really don't think that any of you professional holocaust "scholars" have come close to proving 911 Investigator's premises wrong. 20 to one and you and yours have failed miserably. I am not saying he's right or that you are wrong but no real proof has been tendered as of yet....Cheers

I think you are willfully ignorant. First, proof that any German testimony was coersed is on you and those who would deny it. Where is your proof that the testimony was forced?

Second, you again willfully mis-state my point...you do not need German testimony at any war crimes trial to know the truth of the holocaust. As I clearly said, the proof is in the Germans own documents, their policy statement, their architectual plans, their train schedules, the minutes of official meetings, statements made publically and privately. Volumes of records from the camps themselves. Photos taken by Germans. And on and on and on.

THe Germans said they were going to kill/eliminate/exterminate the Jews. This isn't something historians have made up...Hitler said it constantly...why not take him/them at their own word?

 

[jmh423]

Where is your proof that the testimony was forced?

Nothing I said even came close to intimating that I had proof that the Germans were coerced.....Where is your proof that they weren't?

 

[jmh423]

"The Germans said they were going to kill/eliminate/exterminate the Jews. This isn't something historians have made up...Hitler said it constantly...why not take him/them at their own word?"

Proof of that would be very helpful to confirming your thesis beyond any reasonable doubt. Do you have any links to a transcript or film of Hitler saying he was going to kill/exterminate the Jews? That should be a snap since as you clearly state "Hitler said it constantly". Are there any credible examples of minutes of meetings where exterminating the Jews was discussed by German officials? Have they been properly forensically authenticated? Show me the link. I always like to see, read, and hear both sides of the story....Is there a cohesive list of the 6 million that were murdered? Where is the link for this list?

I believe that the official holocaust story has suffered greatly in credibility because of spurrilous frauds such as the lampshades and soap bussiness along with the 4 million gassed at Auchwitz tale that has been going down invrementally ever since it's inception..These stories were also printed by those who were once called credible sources also, weren't they? The "deniers could not have been given better ammunition by Geobels himself than was given them by these fraudulant claims....Thanks

 

[apathoid]

....

Last week’s revelation that Iran has a second uranium enrichment plant near Qom that had not been declared to International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) inspectors has increased the likelihood of war even though Tehran appears to have been in compliance with the Nuclear Proliferation Treaty requirement to report the introduction of new fissile material into a facility within 180 days. Iran also quickly agreed to UN inspection for the new facility, but those seeking a confrontation appear to have the upper hand. Obama, conveniently IGNORING ISRAEL'S NUCLEAR ARSENAL, declared last Friday that “Iran is breaking rules that all nations must follow.” Following the lead offered by Obama, the British poodle quickly yapped, with Prime Minister Gordon Brown asserting that he was “shocked and angered.” In a subsequent interview the UK Foreign Minister David Miliband declared that Britain would not rule out a military option.

And the US media smelled blood in the water. The always-ready-to-bomb-first Washington Post featured an op-ed on September 21st by the so-called Bipartisan Policy Center called “Last Chance for Iran” which concluded that “a US-led military strike is a feasible, albeit risky, option of last resort.” The Post followed up on the news of the new Iranian nuclear facility last Saturday with a front page article by the reliably bellicose Glenn Kessler explaining how Washington would now move away “from engagement and toward building an international consensus for sterner action.” In a lead editorial on the same day presumably written by the Post’s Editorial Page Editor Fred Hiatt headed “Another Nuclear Plant,” the paper refers to “Iran’s belligerent policies toward the West” and rails against “inaction against a regime that is brazenly defying international treaties and UN Security Council resolutions.” Hello Fred…have you ever heard of Israel?

Congressman Howard Berman, Chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, also was featured in the Saturday Post in his op-ed entitled “Dealing With Iran’s Deception.” Setting the desired tone, his first line was “Tehran could soon have humankind’s most frightening weapon…” and he went on to report “it already has enough low-enriched uranium to produce fuel for at least one nuclear bomb.” Ignoring the fact that Berman’s argument makes no sense in that low-enriched uranium must be concentrated twenty times to be suitable for making a bomb, one wants to know what evidence there actually is that Iran is making a weapon apart from press releases coming out of AIPAC or the Israeli Embassy. After all, we are talking about the United States possibly going to war and when Berman pops up repeatedly there has to be a sneaking suspicion that it once again is all about Israel."


...

Hmmm, for some reason this appeared to me to be a copy/paste post. I went ahead and googled the post word for word and found where you cribbed it from. Is this a case of writers block...or did you simply forget to add the link? Or maybe you always prefer to post other peoples opinions word for word and pass them off as your own?

 

[Slayhamlet]

Hmmm, for some reason this appeared to me to be a copy/paste post. I went ahead and googled the post word for word and found where you cribbed it from. Is this a case of writers block...or did you simply forget to add the link? Or maybe you always prefer to post other peoples opinions word for word and pass them off as your own?

The list he posted earlier was plagiarized as well. We're dealing with a real intellectual giant here.

 

[Slayhamlet]

Nothing I said even came close to intimating that I had proof that the Germans were coerced.....Where is your proof that they weren't?

The fact that none of them claimed to be coerced. The burden of proof is on you, since you're the one arguing something contrary to what the war criminals themselves claimed in their own defense, i.e. that they were only following orders.

 

[Slayhamlet]

Time to post this again:

 

[Slayhamlet]

Proof of that would be very helpful to confirming your thesis beyond any reasonable doubt. Do you have any links to a transcript or film of Hitler saying he was going to kill/exterminate the Jews? That should be a snap since as you clearly state "Hitler said it constantly". Are there any credible examples of minutes of meetings where exterminating the Jews was discussed by German officials? Have they been properly forensically authenticated? Show me the link. I always like to see, read, and hear both sides of the story....Is there a cohesive list of the 6 million that were murdered? Where is the link for this list?

No, Hitler never publicly proclaimed his intent to exterminate all the Jews, as that would have been rather incriminating, don't you think? He wasn't stupid. But listen to the speech Himmler delivered at Posen to his SS men which I linked to above.

There are, on the other hand, hundreds of captured Nazi documents which attest to the reality of the Final Solution. They are mostly still in archives, accessible to historians, but if you look around you should be able to find a good deal of them scanned and uploaded on the 'net. The evidence for the Wannsee Conference and what was decided there is incontrovertible. But why not actually pick up a book on the subject and read about it? I have seen little evidence on your part of any actual interest in understanding the non-denialist side.

And before we give you a "cohesive list" of all the victims, first do this for us: find a cohesive list of all the Palestinians killed in Operation Cast Lead this past year. Then remember just how much more complicated and vast the Holocaust was in comparison to this event, and realize that you're asking for the impossible. Estimates for the number of dead are based on a many, many sets of evidences. Different historians have used many different combinations of sources to determine their final estimates, and they all tend to converge upon a similar ballpark estimate of between 5.1 and 5.9 million Jews killed. Estimates below 5 million and above 6 million are rare.

I believe that the official holocaust story has suffered greatly in credibility because of spurrilous frauds such as the lampshades and soap bussiness along with the 4 million gassed at Auchwitz tale that has been going down invrementally ever since it's inception..These stories were also printed by those who were once called credible sources also, weren't they? The "deniers could not have been given better ammunition by Geobels himself than was given them by these fraudulant claims....Thanks

The credibility of the Holocaust hasn't suffered at all from these claims, especially since the first two things you mentioned have been known to be false or questionable from the very beginning. The third thing you mentioned actually goes against your case.

The story of lamp shades made from human skin may or may not be true. It is a fact that Ilse Koch preserved in formaldehyde the skins of certain dead Buchenwald inmates who had tattoos that caught her eye. Pictures of them exist and were used as evidence against her at the Nuremberg trials. Testimony from some witnesses that they had seen lamp shades made from the skin went uncorroborated, however. But whether the lamp shades existed or not hardly has any bearing on the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust. But on to the next thing...

It was a pervasive rumor amongst the Jewish inmates of the concentration and extermination camps that the initials RIF found on the soap given to them by Nazis stood for "Reines Jüdisches Fett" (Pure Jewish Fat). In reality the letters represented something much more benign: Reichstelle für Industrielle Fettversorgung was the name of the factory that produced the soap. Rumors like this are certainly understandable among people facing such hideous persecution. Regardless, the rumor was almost immediately found to be without warrant by war crimes investigators at the Nuremberg trials. No serious historian has maintained that it is true, though the rumor has persisted among some survivors and become part of Holocaust lore. But yet again, the truth or falsity of the story has nothing to do with the greater truth of the Holocaust. (Interestingly, there was an experiment carried out by Nazi researchers at one of the camps to make soap from the bodies of dead inmates, but the process was never put into practice for mass production, nor was it the source of the rumor)

The number of total victims at Auschwitz was indeed revised down from 4 million, which is the number the Soviets used to maintain and had listed on plaques at the site (though that number was never taken as gospel by Western historians). It is now known to be much lower, and that the Soviets were greatly exaggerating the numbers for propaganda purposes. But here's the catch: the Soviets were exaggerating the total number of victims at the camp, which was being counted in excess of the number of Jews killed, because the approximate number of Jewish victims at the camp (just shy of a million) had already long been known, mostly from captured documents.

So it was in fact the number of non-Jewish victims, mainly ethnic Poles, killed at Auschwitz which was being wildly inflated. This isn't surprising once you take into consideration the Soviets' propensity for downplaying the Jewish character of the Holocaust. They generally did not like to distinguish Nazi victims by race, religion, or nationality, preferring instead to emphasize all victims as "citizens" rather than distinct groups of persecuted peoples.

 

[apathoid]

The list he posted earlier was plagiarized as well. We're dealing with a real intellectual giant here.

What is it with the copy/pasters today? There are two Creationist theses in the GS&P section that are hack jobs as well...I wish they would just plagiarize themselves with some pr0n and save us the grief!

 

[triforcharity]

Can either of you two Holocaust deniers explain WHAT exactly I saw when I went to Belzec, Chelmno and Majdanek a few years ago?? ITs not like I saw a swimming hole, a minature golf course, or a volley ball court. I saw huge furnaces, huge berracks not even fit for dead animal storage, and gas chambers. Why else would there be holes in the ceiling, and locks on the OUTSIDE of the doors?? I mean, really.