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Hardfire: Szamboti / Chandler / Mackey

I'm derailing my own thread with this post, which is dumb of me, but I just happened to be alerted to this little coincidence over at Screw Loose Change. Frank Legge at the Journal of 9/11 Studies has some thoughts on the Pentagon, responsive to that little needling attack about Craig Ranke and his truly insane delusions:

Frank Legge said:
On the website of Pilots for 9/11 Truth we read: “Physically and aerodynamically, Arlington's unique topography and obstacles along American 77 "final leg" to the pentagon make this approach completely impossible as we will demonstrate”.
Transcribed from their G Force video we read: “As we can see, G loads required to pull out of a dive from the top of the VDOT antenna are impossible for a 757”. Given that it is clearly possible to find a flight path that does not stress the aircraft, with an entry angle which would not stress the pilot, one wonders how it comes about that Pilots for 9/11 Truth have produced such a contrary finding. The answer is readily found. Firstly, there are gross errors in their calculation of g-force, as already pointed out. Secondly, they assume that the pilot would be stupid enough to maintain a constant descent angle from the top of the antenna all the way to the impact point on the first pole before pulling up. [...]

Why Pilots for 9/11 Truth restrict calculations to the improbable straight line approach path from the antenna to the poles is unclear. It does not come from the FDR, which certainly does not show this uniform approach slope. Could it be that this group has an agenda to prove that the 757 did not hit the Pentagon, rather than a scientific determination to find the truth, come what may? Given the assertion of these pilots that they do not have a position on whether a 757 hit the Pentagon, their simultaneous assertion that the plane could not have hit the Pentagon is contradictory. They are adopting a position that will require them to accept that the plane flew over the Pentagon, and that the complex damage pattern to the poles and the interior of the Pentagon, which fit well enough with the 757 theory, was created by other means. This would appear to be an uncomfortable position for a team which has done much work to obtain and analyze the FDR data, enabling us to see its flaws.

Members of Pilots for 9/11 Truth have had over a year to address these concerns, but so far have shown themselves to be unwilling to do so. Whether this represents the position of the majority of members, or just of the executive, is not clear.

He also cites my own calculations on the subject, including this:
Frank Legge said:
It could be that this work was ignored by the truth movement because Mackey is known to support the official story of 9/11. This does not, however, prove his calculations are wrong.
Source

Understatement of the year, but maybe, micron by micron, some of these people are starting to get it.

I don't have to pay attention to them. Even other Truthers don't buy their crap. Their work is stupendously horrible. Please don't bring it up in my threads ever again.
 
Ironic Frank's 911 work is delusional like Balsamo's/p4t/CIT. How is he able to turn on his rational mind for critiquing the Balsamo failure, but can't figure out the rest of 911? Frank believes the WTC can't fall in a gravity collapse or some nonsense. He can see Balsamo is delusional but fails to apply the same logic to his work.
 
There is just no way around the unanimity of the witness statements in the CIT video let alone the piles of other evidence. If things were normal the perps would now be under arrest and awaiting trial.
 
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Well, debate's over. Went pretty much as expected. Tony still denies that the upper block tilted before it descended, and that appears to be his Irreducible Delusion.

My computer hiccoughed and I lost the entire second of three shows. My fault. I'm not sure how much Gary will have to work with, but maybe he can pull something off. The first and third should be fine. Sorry for the problems.

We both prepared some slides -- Tony had brought many slides -- but we only went through a few of them. I'm going to send mine to the usual suspects to see if they'd like to host them for your later perusal.

I'll look forward to seeing the shows. I really don't understand why Szamboti is denying the upper block tilt..... it's just too easy to demonstrate. Is he that insecure about his theory that he must rely on the ignorance of his audience? Sounds like a very weak position.

I'm a little disappointed to learn things like this, since I naturally assume that these guys bring more to the table scientifically-speaking. I suppose one should be relieved.

Thanks for getting out there and representing, Mackey. Much appreciated.
 
I'll look forward to seeing the shows. I really don't understand why Szamboti is denying the upper block tilt..... it's just too easy to demonstrate. Is he that insecure about his theory that he must rely on the ignorance of his audience? Sounds like a very weak position.

I'm a little disappointed to learn things like this, since I naturally assume that these guys bring more to the table scientifically-speaking. I suppose one should be relieved.

Thanks for getting out there and representing, Mackey. Much appreciated.

Why don't you show us some video evidence of the 'tilt' of the upper block and right after I'll show you video that proves 'no tilt' ?
 
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*yawn* Craig Ranke is still waiting for your reply.

Who cares? I have been told by the supposedly responsible "Truthers" that Ranke and his idiot brigade aren't worth debating. There are excellent pages by Truthers like Jim Hoffman and Arabesque that dispense with the CIT gang.

I have appeared on a couple dozen radio programs over the last three years, on most of which callers were allowed (contrast that with DRG who generally does not allow callers), and on many of which the callers were mostly 9-11 Truthers. I have debated Bermas and Avery and Jon Gold and even that dolt Von Kleist.

So the idea that anybody here is ducking a debate with Ranke is silly. It's like saying I'm ducking a debate with Rosalee Grable or Paula Gloria.
 
Try keeping it on topic please.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Cuddles
 
I really don't understand why Szamboti is denying the upper block tilt..... it's just too easy to demonstrate. Is he that insecure about his theory that he must rely on the ignorance of his audience?

Ego investment. His theory is utterly dependent on lack of tilt to produce the 'jolt' that might (note might) result from a pure axial impact, and he's put so much public work into it that accepting his mistake is now itself impossible. If he backed off, then his credentiials would be zilch on both sides of the 9/11 debate. This way he retains a following of a few CT dolts.
 
Why don't you show us some video evidence of the 'tilt' of the upper block and right after I'll show you video that proves 'no tilt' ?


Please show us this no tilt evidence. I think we might be able to prove it fale in 1 post.


With this video be on GoogleVideos, or YouTube, or hosted on another site??
 
Please show us this no tilt evidence. I think we might be able to prove it fale in 1 post.

He's already done that. He posted two videos, one of which clearly shows a tilt. The other is taken from a direction at right angles to the tilt axis, so the tilt isn't visible. He claimed that, since the one that doesn't show the tilt is filmed from nearer the tower than the one that does, we should pretend the one that does show the tilt isn't reliable evidence, therefore there isn't a tilt. It's one of the most monumentally stupid lines of argument I've ever seen.

Dave
 
He's already done that. He posted two videos, one of which clearly shows a tilt. The other is taken from a direction at right angles to the tilt axis, so the tilt isn't visible. He claimed that, since the one that doesn't show the tilt is filmed from nearer the tower than the one that does, we should pretend the one that does show the tilt isn't reliable evidence, therefore there isn't a tilt. It's one of the most monumentally stupid lines of argument I've ever seen.

Dave

He may assume a tilt in one video but I will not accept the assumption of course. I would be happy to review he other video where he claims that he can show a tllt. Then I will shoot it down.
 
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He may assume a tilt in one video but I will not accept the assumption of course. I would be happy to review he other video where he claims that he can show a tllt. Then I will ahoot it down.

"He" in this case is you. You posted a video that showed a tilt, then said that because it was taken from further away than a different video, you were going to ignore it.

Dave
 
"He" in this case is you. You posted a video that showed a tilt, then said that because it was taken from further away than a different video, you were going to ignore it.

Dave

Tut tut...I seem to have developed a bad habit of not reading your posts carefully Dave. I don't recall this? Do you have a link ?
 
Tut tut...I seem to have developed a bad habit of not reading your posts carefully Dave. I don't recall this? Do you have a link ?

I tried searching "bill smith" and "video", but for some reason there were too many hits to get anything sensible. Never mind, I remember it as clearly as you remember the Chopper 5 feed being shown live on 9/11, so if there isn't a link that just proves that you've hacked the forum and removed it.

I seem to remember your argument was that if one video shows a rotation, and another doesn't, then there's no rotation. You didn't seem to get much further than that.

Dave
 
Tony brought his own video to the debate. In this video, the tilt is clearly visible to both Ron and myself. This should be evident in the show when it's assembled.

After the debate sinks to that point, what is one to do? Some Irreducbile Delusions are so strong, they apparently manifest as actual hallucinations.
 
Tony brought his own video to the debate. In this video, the tilt is clearly visible to both Ron and myself. This should be evident in the show when it's assembled.

After the debate sinks to that point, what is one to do? Some Irreducbile Delusions are so strong, they apparently manifest as actual hallucinations.

The awesome power of the human mind cuts both ways...;)
 
Tony brought his own video to the debate. In this video, the tilt is clearly visible to both Ron and myself. This should be evident in the show when it's assembled.

After the debate sinks to that point, what is one to do? Some Irreducbile Delusions are so strong, they apparently manifest as actual hallucinations.
I hope you mount that one too when available. I want to see the power of hallucination at work too.
 

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