Anybody think there are Aliens (UFO)?

They ARE 'around'/up there/in the heavens, 'today' as they were yesterday...

What is your objection, again?

Debunking is supposed to be identifying inaccuracies or 'problems' with the evidence used to arrive at a given conclusion. When and if this fails, “debunking” becomes instead “proposing alternative possibilities". Thusly, fully arming the skeptic to deny just about any reality.

Oh.. I guess I am just wary of categorical statements... warning bells go off when I see one, no matter who makes it.

Nice point about "debunking"...

I am not perfect by any means and I make mistakes in my writing often, but I do at least TRY not to make assumptions and I do TRY to be logical and I definitely steer clear of mere "proposing of alternative possibilities". :)

I am interested in your "They are here" hypothesis. You mean they have always been here...that is indigenous and not ET?
 
I am interested in your "They are here" hypothesis. You mean they have always been here...that is indigenous and not ET?

I find "here" to be a relative term, say solarly speaking. They are 'near by', in that they don't have to be capable of inter-stellar travel, because evidence that they've always been 'here' literally litters our historical record.

That said, there ARE places on Earth they could hide. Hell, we still haven't 'found' Osama bin Laden, and he doesn't even have a craft to zip around in.
 
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Does anybody on this site think/believe/know if there have been ETs that have visited Earth? If not, do you think that all of the reports/photos, etc. have plausible explanations, even the ones that can't be explained due to a lack of data?

To be fair, I will go on record as saying that I think there is a more probable than not possibility that there were or are.

No, we have identified them

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MImVCxf36EU
 
Umm…even the “old” logo looks nothing like the Zamora description… and was the original logo red in colour? But thanks for posting that. It is an interesting comparison.
I've no idea if they printed it on their balloons in colour, I could only find that rather scrappy version.



Huh? What the…? I seem to remember Gord doing just that (see above) but me, Did the links I provided not work or something? I don’t understand your meaning here.
You claimed that the Raven logo looked nothing like what was described on the unidentified craft. Then you linked to a web page that didn't show the logo that you claim didn't look like the one described on the unidentified craft.
If you are going to say that 'A' didn't look like 'B', it is better to show A and B isn't it?
What you did was say they didn't look the same and then show us one logo and one webpage that doesn't show a logo. So yes on the face of it, you are right, the two examples you gave had nothing in common. On the other hand, one of the examples you gave wasn't what was being discussed. Does that make more sense?
 
Rramjet, since we both agree with this statement from arthwollipot:

Many many different things. No one explanation can possibly cover all circumstances. Some reports may be delusion. Some may be misidentifications of terrestrial phenomena. Some may be optical illusions. Some may be aircraft. Some may be something else.

To conclude that any given sighting is of an extraterrestrial spaceship, one would have to rule out all other possibilities. Since we can't do that, we can't make that conclusion.


... which has been my sole contention all along, but which you have bewilderingly argued for reasons known only to yourself, I will now cease arguing with you, as I find it is a waste of my time and energy. Good day.
 
Wow...

What does this 'mean'?

How DO you trigger the brain to release "DMT"?

It appears that it could happen during states of high stress such as Near Death Experiences. Research is limited due to difficulties in researching a USA schedule 1 drugs.Hopefully we will learn more in the near future.
However
"We know that DMT is an endogenous agonist for the sigma-1 receptor" which is widely distributed in the central nervous system and periphery
from
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/323/5916/934
and we know what exogenous DMT affects have on humans, so I believe its just a matter of time till we find out exactly whats going on.
 
Since you choose to leave without a summation of your position Vortigern, I have taken the liberty of doing it for you (I have restricted myself to this page (4) of this thread as it seems sufficient to understand you position.

(misidentification… hallucination…. Perceptual distortion …. Cultural expectation…. Accidental imbellishment …. Impermanence of memory …. Fraudulent claims …)

Rramjet, these known and documented human behaviors and conditions alone are sufficient to provide possible explanations of every single anecdote you've offered.

(...) including, especially, meteors in all their forms, and experimental military aircraft -- these psychological and perceptual conditions easily explain the many anecdotes you've offered.

(…) There might be some energetic phenomena of which we are not yet aware…

(…) the recently-discovered infra-red "sprites"…

(…) some aircraft that some nation of the world was developing in secret…

(…) controls against human error, along with independent corroboration of data, and peer review -- none of which is available in a purely anecdotal/eyewitness account of a given event…

(…) give me some that cannot be mistaken, hoaxed or ambiguous, and then we'll discuss the possibilities as to what it might be.

(…)We have many possible explanations for the existing photos, videos and anecdotal reports, each of which must be considered and rejected before coming to the conclusion that ETs are visiting the Earth.

(…)Yes, "something" is going on. But each instance of that "something" might be as simple as hallucination or as as complex as an as-yet unknown energetic source.

(…) As a layman student of biology, cosmology and physical science, I…

(…) namely the eyewitness testimony of non-expert observers…

(…) Simple observation/anecdotes/eyewitness testimony is not sufficient to qualify as data.

(…)My position is that we have many possible explanations for the existing photos, videos and anecdotal reports, each of which must be considered and rejected before coming to the conclusion that ETs are visiting the Earth.


King of the Americas stated:
Debunking is supposed to be identifying inaccuracies or 'problems' with the evidence used to arrive at a given conclusion. When and if this fails, “debunking” becomes instead “proposing alternative possibilities". Thusly, fully arming the skeptic to deny just about any reality.

…and this is exactly what you are attempting to do. You even go so far as to incredibly invoke unknown phenomenon to explain unknown phenomenon! (“There might be some energetic phenomena of which we are not yet aware…” and "aircraft that some nation of the world was developing in secret…")

On the face of it and despite your protestations, any reasonable person would be safe in concluding that you consider there to be a prosaic or mundane explanation for ALL UFO reports and that is not arthwollipot’s contention at all.

When that tactic seems to fail, you even go so far as to discount the expert testimony of human observation reports as evidence – even while those reporters are often extremely highly qualified in areas directly related to the observation (astronauts, AirForce fighter pilots, military observers, RADAR operators, etc).

I on the other hand argue that some expert eyewitness (independently corroborated and scientifically researched according to the standard scientific method) UFO reports describe things that defy such multitudinous explanation and thus remain a mystery.

The fallacious LOGIC underpinning your claims is of the form: All the crows I have seen are black, therefore all crows are black. This is not the logic of a critical thinker.

You fallacious understanding of scientific practice and protocol can be described as “typically folklaw-ish” or of the “lay” variety and it is not easy to correct such misunderstandings without going into a lengthy detailed exposition.

Let me quote from Chalmers introduction to his book What Is This Thing Called Science to give you a taste of what I mean (a book by the way that has become a standard reference text in many undergraduate degree courses from philosophy, to psychology and even to history and anthropology.

“Self-avowed “scientists” in such fields will often see themselves as following the empirical method of physics, which for them consists of the collection of “facts” by means of careful observation and experiment and subsequent derivation of laws and theories from those facts by some kind of logical procedure. (…) An inscription on the façade of the Social Science Research Building at the University of Chicago reads, “If you cannot measure, your knowledge is meagre and unsatisfactory” No doubt many of the inhabitants, imprisoned in their modern laboratories, scrutinize the world through the iron bars of the integers, failing to realize that the method that they endeavour to follow is not only necessarily barren and unfruitful but also is not the method to which the success of physics is to be attributed.

(…) Even though some scientists and many pseudo-scientists voice their allegiance to that method, no modern philosopher of science would be unaware of at least some of its shortcomings. Modern developments in the philosophy of science have pinpointed and stressed deep-seated difficulties associated with the idea that science rests on a sure foundation acquired through observation and experiment and with the idea that there is some kind of inference procedure that enables us to derive scientific theories from such a base in a reliable way.

There is just no method that enables scientific theories to be true or even probably true.” (p. xvi)​

THIS represents the modern conception of science Vortigern, you seem to represent the outdated conception of the science of the 19th and early 20th century. As I say, get an education. Bring yourself up to date.

..and now for something completely different!
DMT! (dimethyltryptamine).
The “natural” psychedelic (ie; produced naturally by metabolic processes in the body – yet still considered a “Schedule 1” drug in the US… go figure…).
It was originally raised in this context (of course) as yet another “explanation” for UFO reports (especially alien abduction).
Some researchers have proposed this hypothesis (eg; Rick Strassman), while others propose an alternative hypothesis (eg; Terence McKenna) - that it opens the mind to “realms of consciousness” equally as valid as waking life (presumably enabling observations of a wider reality we usually have no access to).

The science is inconclusive in all areas of DMT – there simply has not been enough research. For “debunkers” to claim it as an (another!) “explanation” for the UFO experience (or even NDEs) is to leap to conclusions without sound evidence.

Funny really, “debunkers” demand the strictest of evidentiary protocol when it comes to UFO proponents, yet when it comes to their own explanations, they relax those requirements into practical non-existence. Their double-standards are breathtakingly arrogant (or ignorant...take your pick) :)
 
Rramjet, thanks for quoting me at length in an effort to summarize my position. That must have taken a good deal of time and energy, and I'd like to express my gratitude to you for undertaking it.

I do find it unusual that you assert that I "choose to leave without a summation of [my] position", then end your summary with my statement: "My position is that we have many possible explanations for the existing photos, videos and anecdotal reports, each of which must be considered and rejected before coming to the conclusion that ETs are visiting the Earth."

It's an odd contradiction, but maybe you simply overlooked that I did, in point of fact, make plain my position. Oh well. Thanks just the same.

Also, thanks for introducing us to the intriguing and forward-thinking philosophies of David Chalmers. It appears that in the book you've referenced, WITTCS?, Chalmers is engaged in pointing out the flaws and shortcomings of the "empiricist" methods of science, for which I applaud him. There's always room for improvement in any field and in any mode of thought.

It's important to note, though, that Chalmers does not toss the scientific method out the window in preference for some other, innovative set of tools. He is building on what we've already got and what I've described at some length in previous posts. I haven't read his book, as I've just learned about it, but I have read several reviews of and articles about it, so I'm passing on my understanding of it here.

In essence, Chalmers' book is a guide to another book called The Philosophy of Science, which describes at length the methods and foundations of empirical science. Chalmers' in-depth critique of those long-valued methods provides a fantastic opportunity for advancing, for lack of a better phrase, the science of science. But he is nowhere suggesting that science doesn't work, as you, Rramjet, seem to want us to accept.
 
Yeah I believe in them but don't want them to show themselves to us anytime soon. They are doing such a good job at hiding out. Keep up the good work guys! :D

esp. those reptilians- keep on working behind the scenes! Bravo! :)
 
Rramjet, thanks for quoting me at length in an effort to summarize my position. That must have taken a good deal of time and energy, and I'd like to express my gratitude to you for undertaking it.

I just like to make things clear, for myself, and then others, it’s all part of the process. I hope it was beneficial. :)

...but you did NOT assess my critique of your position. By your silence I take it you agree with that critique :)

I do find it unusual that you assert that I "choose to leave without a summation of [my] position", then end your summary with my statement: "My position is that we have many possible explanations for the existing photos, videos and anecdotal reports, each of which must be considered and rejected before coming to the conclusion that ETs are visiting the Earth."

It's an odd contradiction, but maybe you simply overlooked that I did, in point of fact, make plain my position. Oh well. Thanks just the same.

Well... that particular statement was NOT in your last post… I had to search back for it, thus…it was included in my summary of your position. Therefore no contradiction. But I forgive your misconception.

Also, thanks for introducing us to the intriguing and forward-thinking philosophies of David Chalmers. It appears that in the book you've referenced, WITTCS?, Chalmers is engaged in pointing out the flaws and shortcomings of the "empiricist" methods of science, for which I applaud him. There's always room for improvement in any field and in any mode of thought.

DAVID Chalmers…? Uh oh, I am very much afraid you are mistaken here! A. F. (Alan) Chalmers (WITTCS, 1976) is an important writer in the philosophy of science and anyone who pretends to an understanding of science should at the very least acquaint themselves with his ideas. Perhaps you… look, I don’t know where you are coming from any more Vortigern. I am truly perplexed.

And if by chance you DID read the “reviews and articles about it” (WITTCS) you would realise that it is not ONLY empiricism he tackles, he speaks to ALL philosophies of science from Inductivism to Falsificationism, from Rationalism to Realism, Objectivism to Anarchism, from theory to methodology… and much more …it’s all there. And he DOES tend to toss the scientific method to the wolves… so perhaps you should go back and conduct more than a cursory “glance” at it. It is truly important…

“The false assumption that there is a universal scientific method to which all forms of knowledge should conform plays a detrimental role in our society here and now, especially in light of the fact that the version of scientific method usually appealed to is some crude empiricist or inductivist one (p. 141).​

In essence, Chalmers' book is a guide to another book called The Philosophy of Science…

No… no… it is not… please Vortigern. Try to conduct a little research on the first hand evidence (in this case the book). You too easily rely on second-hand accounts (if you even have the right accounts). It is a flaw I have found prevalent throughout this forum. I hope one day to find at least someone who has a truly rational, critical and logical mind (arthwollipot has come the closest so far… but still labouring under some fundamentalist pre-conceptions).

Yet I live in hope...
 
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Your condescension and insufferably arrogant tone have rendered this an exercise in frustration and futility. I got Alan Chalmer's first name wrong, granted -- there is a philosopher named David Chalmers whose ideas and criticisms are close to those of the Chalmers you champion -- but that does not mean I didn't closely examine articles about and reviews of the book in question. I did. You got something different out of it, great. It's pointless to argue with a brick wall. In closing, as this has been a considerable derail of a thread about UFOs being identified as alien visitors, I suggest we return to the topic at hand if you wish to continue a dialogue.
 
This is in reference to the original question of the thread.

To paraphrase Dr. Sagan, I am convinced of intelligent life beyond our Earth but I would hate to die not knowing for sure.
For me, 'their' mode of transportation is largely secondary to 'them' as sentient beings. I would be vastly interested in technology of origins beyond our own, but I would see it as a failure if that were to be the primary goal of humanity (assuming our immediate survival as a whole was not threatened).
 
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“Anecdotes”? Uh oh. That is just your way of attempting to belittle the reports of eyewitnesses. To deny they are “evidence” at all. Well, eyewitness accounts stand up in court and they have a large role to play in scientific research.
Anecdotes in court have been shown to be extremely wrong and they are not believed if contradicted by better evidence. And no, anecdotes have absolutely no role to play in scientific research. Nada.
 
You may want to rescan your sentences before you post.

That first sentence reads,

SETI bright mind, "Look, the moon!"
SETI brighter mind, "No. That's a UFO."
:D

Jill Tarter thought she was seeing a UFO, but it turned out to be the freaking Moon!! Like she should be talking :rolleyes:
 
Anecdotes in court have been shown to be extremely wrong and they are not believed if contradicted by better evidence. And no, anecdotes have absolutely no role to play in scientific research. Nada.

anecdote: n. narrative of detached incident
evidence: n. (...) testimony
(The Concise Oxford Dictionary)

A UFO report is the testimony of eyewitnesses, that is... evidence.

It is therefore legitimate to argue that the evidence (eyewitness testimony) is not satisfactory. It is NOT legitimate to argue that is is NOT evidence at all.

So, there are many UFO reports that have been made by expert observers (Pilots, astronauts, etc) that have been independently corroborated by expert observers, that have confirming photo/video/RADAR evidence AND have been studied according to the standard scientific method (eg Blue Book, Condon, etc) and STILL remain a mystery. THAT is a UFO.

ET is another matter altogether. I don't believe UFO reports allow us to conclude ET "visitation". All that CAN be said is that many PRESENT AS IF ET. But just because it LOOKS like something, doesn't mean it IS that something.
 
A UFO report is the testimony of eyewitnesses, that is... evidence.

Evidence of what? Anecdotes are not evidence

It is therefore legitimate to argue that the evidence (eyewitness testimony) is not satisfactory.

Correct

It is NOT legitimate to argue that is is NOT evidence at all.

Wrong. Nobody is claiming the above. The burden of proof is on those who claim eyewitnesses are reliable, which is not the case
 
Based on dictionary definitions I concluded that:
A UFO report is the testimony of eyewitnesses, that is... evidence.
Evidence of what? Anecdotes are not evidence

You ask two independent questions here.

To begin, your question “Evidence of what?” assumes the correct (Oxford English Dictionary) definition that eyewitness testimony is evidence. Full Stop. Well done. And good question! It is THE question!

Then you move on to an entirely different question – and that in two parts (ie; you make two assumptions).

First: Can we legitimately say that an eyewitness testimony UFO report is an “anecdote”?

Second: If so, then can we legitimately describe an anecdote as “evidence”?

In answer:

Testimony: n. Evidence (but we already knew that), demonstration, (); (law) oral or written statement under oath, or affirmation; declarations, statements, solemn protest (and so on, but nowhere is anecdote mentioned).

Anecdote: n. narrative of detached incident; unpublished details of history (nowhere is testimony or evidence mentioned).

The two terms certainly seem to be separate (distinct, different in application) – but to be sure let us turn now to a Thesaurus (Roget’s).

Here we find "anecdote" listed under types of Description:

Here we DO NOT find “anecdote” related with terms such as: account, statement report, etc.

We DO however find it in relation to: narrative, history, memoir, etc.

This then clarifies our dictionary definitions somewhat… (we were struggling with “narrative of detached incident” weren’t we…) and we can now say with some confidence that a UFO report (eyewitness testimony, account, statement, etc) is a different thing altogether than an anecdote (narrative, history, memoir, etc). In other words, we CANNOT (according to definition) directly relate terms such as testimony, statement or report with “anecdotes” (they have distinctly different meaning and application). To do such a thing is either to be in ignorance of the definitions of the terms involved or to wilfully undertake to dupe your readers.

I do hope that settles the matter once and for all (although I would bet my house the “debunkers” will simply ignore protocol, ignore definitions, and carry on in wilful ignorance or deliberate deceptiveness).

To reiterate: You MAY question whether the evidence (UFO reports) are sufficient or satisfactory to draw conclusions, but you MAY NOT deny they are evidence - and you certainly MAY NOT deceitfully describe them as “anecdotes” in an effort to weasel out of having to deal with them as EVIDENCE. Simple, straightforward, fact of the matter. Can we MOVE ON people? makaya...?

The burden of proof is on those who claim eyewitnesses are reliable, which is not the case
First point: I can legitimately argue that an eyewitness is reliable (or not) without EVER having to deal with the content of their statement (testimony, report, etc).

Then: It is YOU who have created the burden of proof for yourself by drawing the conclusion that UFO eyewitnesses are not reliable witnesses. You MUST back up your claims with evidence or we can LEGITIMATELY DISMISS your claim as unfounded assertion. Which I DO.

Alternatively, If I EVER claimed UFO eyewitnesses to be reliable, then the burden of proof falls on me to support that claim with evidence of my own.

I do hope you see makaya the standard principles of logic and evidence at work here.

If you have not understood or you need further clarification, instruction or explanation I will only be to happy to enlighten you. All you need to do is ask :)
 
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Then: It is YOU who have created the burden of proof for yourself by drawing the conclusion that UFO eyewitnesses are not reliable witnesses. You MUST back up your claims with evidence or we can LEGITIMATELY DISMISS your claim as unfounded assertion. Which I DO.

http://www.csicop.org/sb/show/lake_monster_lookalikes/

Actually, I feel that if we erred it was on the side of being too open-minded. Ben’s essay, “Eyewitness (Un)Reliability,” appeared as an appendix and simply demonstrated the fact that eyewitnesses are often mistaken. If further evidence is needed, consider a case that transpired in Rotterdam in 1978. A small panda had escaped from a zoo, whereupon officials had issued a media alert. Soon panda sightings—around one hundred in all—were reported across the Netherlands. However, a single animal could not have been in so many places in so short a time; in fact, no one had seen the panda, because it had been killed by a train when it reached railroad tracks near the zoo. How do we explain the many false sightings? The answer is, people’s anticipations led them to misinterpret what they had actually seen—a dog or some wild creature—as the escaped panda. (The publicity generated by the case may even have sparked some hoax calls [Nickell 1995, 43].) If such misperceptions could happen with pandas, surely they could also occur with aquatic cryptids.
 

Ummm... I am not sure of the relevance here. Do you intend to propose a link between "Lake Monsters" and UFO reports? If so you must provide evidence of that link. Otherwise you are just waving in the breeze my friend.

Moreover, I think you could do better than to quote Joe Nickell... he has demonstrated some extremely spurious methodology.

From the head of the article you link to:
"As a cryptozoologist—albeit a skeptical one—I have long been on the track of fabled creatures, culturally and historically (Nickell 1995; 2006) as well as investigatively. Among my quarry have been legendary leviathans like those supposed to inhabit lakes Champlain (New York and Vermont), Memphremagog (Vermont and Quebec), Utopia (New Brunswick), Okanagan (British Columbia), Simcoe (Ontario), Silver Lake (New York) and others.”

My point is that it is NOT legitimate to BEGIN a research project with an assumption ("fabled", legendary", etc) that presupposes your conclusion. If I had proposed such research (even in my undergraduate years) that began with such assumptions I would have been told to go away and come back with a "scientific" proposal and I would have been given instruction in "standard" scientific methodology.

For any researcher to begin with a conclusion automatically, whether the researcher is aware of it or not, biases the outcome of that research - especially by biasing the types of questions asked and the types of conclusions interpreted from the results.

Now I AM NOT stating that I dismiss ALL of his research as illegitimate (I am therefore more lenient than my university mentors and instructors would be), just that one has to be aware of the type of person we are dealing with when quoting him -and thus the types of legitimate objections that you will encounter in doing so.

Benjamin Radford is another quack. I have elsewhere criticised his efforts at debunking a supposed “Ghost” story… oh, it was some time ago…there is a skeptics podcast…ughh, of course I’ll think of it and post the reference as soon as I find it… but the upshot was that HE was NOT applying scientific rigour to his analysis and he started with his conclusions – just as Nickell does. These people can be legitimately termed “pseudo-scientists” (I know – I’ll get the evidence… you are entitled to dismiss my statements until I do). All I am saying is I have DEMONSTRATED Nickell to be a pseudo-scientist above and I know Radford to be one as well… but the second for now, as far as you are concerned, is merely my opinion.
 
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