Anybody think there are Aliens (UFO)?

[Stray Cat]

Regarding the relative sizes of the UFO's in the two photos.

I think that as the parallax moves a lot (even in the background hills as a quick overlay of the two shows), the most stable thing to measure are VERTICAL measurements, not horizontal ones. I'll maybe do that a bit later but for now I will just point out that in Rramjet's parallax diagram, using the positions he has marked for the UFO (and the statement that he claims it is an accurate representation of the ratios and the direction of travel). His UFO from position 2 is just over one third further away than from position 1, even being kind that is a 30% difference. None of the measurements given by Hartman, Astrophotographer or Rramjet confirm this figure.
So tell me again Rramjet... how accurate is your diagram?

 

[tsig]

Rramjet, I've been reading this thread for a while, and I was wondering if you could answer a question for me: what point are you trying to make?

He can spin straw into gold?

 

[SnidelyW]

It is very easy to convince yourself of a embellishment or complete fabrication, and even easier with the more people you have confirming those embellishments. People all over the world, droves and droves of them, swear to being physic, being healed by this, that, and the other magical thing and about a million other completely bizarre delusions. Just look at every major religion on the planet, even if your religious, just look at a different one to yours.

Its rarely a concious dishonesty, and if you have someone else agreeing, let alone a lot of people, its going to be even harder to distinguish. Add to that a complex human animal and you have vast variation of how they react to stimulus such as media attention etc.



If your going to look at the motivation angle I would suggest you first do a some educational course in Psychology or something equivalent or gain some expertise in the area. I don't mean be facetious or insulting, but the human mind can do things for such a vastly complex variety of reasons that I fear you may be over simplifying their motivations.

One of the reasons I don't spend my time studying these UFO photos is I know next to nothing about photography or graphic design and could probably be fooled by the simplest trick. Similarly I know next to nothing about human psychology, so could easily mistake many complex human behaviours for simple honest or dishonest motivations.

I am in greater agreement with what you write than what you may think, and I, as well, am not a psychologist nor a graphic artist or photo tech.

That is why I am here, to explore how I am assessing the entire UFO subject, get exposure to how others with much greater knowledge of the subject have fared, and assess all viewpoints. I will then be better prepared, I hope, to think using a variety of tools, and process any new information that may become available.

However, I have never looked upon people generally, as dishonest charlatans bent on deceiving people, and that is where our opinions may diverge.

I don't know about you, but to look my family and friends in the eye, and continue to claim, years afterward, that I was part of a UFO experience requires a lot more moxie than I posess, I'm afraid, so that puts me on the side of the 'believers', it seems. Believer in the innate moral compass pointing true north, I guess.

 

[EHocking]

I am in greater agreement with what you write than what you may think, and I, as well, am not a psychologist nor a graphic artist or photo tech.

That is why I am here, to explore how I am assessing the entire UFO subject, get exposure to how others with much greater knowledge of the subject have fared, and assess all viewpoints. I will then be better prepared, I hope, to think using a variety of tools, and process any new information that may become available.

However, I have never looked upon people generally, as dishonest charlatans bent on deceiving people, and that is where our opinions may diverge.

StevenCalder said, it is rarely conscious dishonesty, there would be numerous reasons not ignoring self-delusion and confirmation bias. This is observable in compusive birdwatchers, for instance, where the need to see what they want to see sometimes overrides what they actually observe. These are extreme cases, but I use this example, instead of an example along paranormal lines such as cryptozoology etc, to demonstrate that it is just as likely to occur in "normal" observations.

I don't know about you, but to look my family and friends in the eye, and continue to claim, years afterward, that I was part of a UFO experience requires a lot more moxie than I posess, I'm afraid, so that puts me on the side of the 'believers', it seems. Believer in the innate moral compass pointing true north, I guess.

This is bordering on Argument from Incredulity, I use that merely in the sense of the logic of the paragraph and is not meant to be a personal dig. What I mean is, just because you couldn't contemplate it, does not preclude the possibility of others doing it, whatever their underlying reason for doing so.

 

[Stray Cat]

I don't know about you, but to look my family and friends in the eye, and continue to claim, years afterward, that I was part of a UFO experience requires a lot more moxie than I posess, I'm afraid, so that puts me on the side of the 'believers', it seems. Believer in the innate moral compass pointing true north, I guess.

From my personal experiences, I find that an 'inner circle' always know about the hoaxes, so there is really no need for charlatans to keep such dirty secrets from those close to them. the other scenario I have witnessed is the one where mutual confirmation applies and everyone with a small group feeds of it, making such 'lies' much easier to live with.
It's complex... very complex.
Look at cases of hoaxes that have continued for years before the perpetrators have come clean... 'Cottingley Fairies Photos' being just one good example, Piltdown Man being another, Oliver's Castle UFO's making a crop circle being yet another. A trail of deception and (in the case of Oliver's Castle specifically for me) a mystery that continues to be spread by those with emotional investment in the mystery... Even after John Wabe had come clean about the hoax.
Then there are cases were there really was NO MYSTERY at all and yet one was spun out of thin air... Bill Witherspoon's desert Shri Yantra artwork for instance. Belief systems only need a few confirming voices to build up a wall that is impenetrable to fact/truth.

 

[SnidelyW]

StevenCalder said, it is rarely conscious dishonesty, there would be numerous reasons not ignoring self-delusion and confirmation bias. This is observable in compusive birdwatchers, for instance, where the need to see what they want to see sometimes overrides what they actually observe. These are extreme cases, but I use this example, instead of an example along paranormal lines such as cryptozoology etc, to demonstrate that it is just as likely to occur in "normal" observations.
This is bordering on Argument from Incredulity, I use that merely in the sense of the logic of the paragraph and is not meant to be a personal dig. What I mean is, just because you couldn't contemplate it, does not preclude the possibility of others doing it, whatever their underlying reason for doing so.

Excellent point, and well made.

I postulated the paragraph on that personal level as I wished to stress that I can imagine one perpetuating things relatively anonymously, but when one must look ones grandmother in the eye and tell her of the UFO, it suddenly becomes rather a question of personal credibilty. I totally concur regarding not knowing someones personal agenda, but I was speaking of the area I specifically had issues coming to terms with.

 

[SnidelyW]

From my personal experiences, I find that an 'inner circle' always know about the hoaxes, so there is really no need for charlatans to keep such dirty secrets from those close to them. the other scenario I have witnessed is the one where mutual confirmation applies and everyone with a small group feeds of it, making such 'lies' much easier to live with.
It's complex... very complex.
Look at cases of hoaxes that have continued for years before the perpetrators have come clean... 'Cottingley Fairies Photos' being just one good example, Piltdown Man being another, Oliver's Castle UFO's making a crop circle being yet another. A trail of deception and (in the case of Oliver's Castle specifically for me) a mystery that continues to be spread by those with emotional investment in the mystery... Even after John Wabe had come clean about the hoax.
Then there are cases were there really was NO MYSTERY at all and yet one was spun out of thin air... Bill Witherspoon's desert Shri Yantra artwork for instance. Belief systems only need a few confirming voices to build up a wall that is impenetrable to fact/truth.

I understand the concept, and agree with the theory, but I suppose I haven't delved into this issue deeply enough to achieve the same perspective you have. Thanks for expounding. This is exactly the perspective I value and is why I am here.

If I interpret you correctly, are you essentially saying the UFO/Alien events are self perpetuating on a global scale?