Anybody think there are Aliens (UFO)?

[makaya325]

It is because they simply DO NOT have a scientific, rational, or logical case against the existence of UFOs.
UFOs exist.

Very few Skeptics doubt that there are not Unidentified flying objects. What we doubt and dismiss, based on flimsy evidence, is the alien hypothesis for UFO'S.

WOW! The Universe is estimated at 15 billion or so... and the earth and the Sun about 4-5 billion.

That is irrelevant to the subject of Ufo's

 

[LandR]

I don't believe in aliens, purely based on having seen no compelling evidence for their existence. Sure, there are UFOs, but in my head it's far too big a leap to go from an unidentified flying object to it being an alien craft. I don't see how that step can be made logically, it's unidentified. i.e. until it's identified you can never know what it is, so how can you logically say it's aliens.

I am willing to accept that given the vast size of the universe that there is probably life somewhere, how advanced it is, that's a different matter. Even if their is intelligent life somewhere that has got to the stage of having space travel, the distances are so vast that it has to be highly improbable that they visit us.

I find it interesting how people can be so quick to attribute aliens to any UFO. I guess some people just want to believe so badly, unfortunately.

 

[makaya325]

I find it interesting how people can be so quick to attribute aliens to any UFO. I guess some people just want to believe so badly, unfortunately.

It also can be attributed to the influence of Hollywood,Popular culture, and also the lack of knowledge in astronomy

 

[blauregen]

While extraterrestrial visitors (as in aliens abducting people) are probably considered unlikely by most skeptics, i seem to remember that SETI was mostly considered a good idea in recent years, and that even some people who considered themselves skeptics invested effort into supporting it, despite the fact that for the last few centuries it completely failed to provide evidence for intelligent extraterrestrial life, trying to communicate with radio waves.

This seems to indicate a degree of belief in intelligent extraterrestrials even among skeptics.

 

[Vortigern99]

Blauregen, "belief in extraterrestrial intelligence" and an "inquiry into whether or not such intelligence exists utilizing scientific instrumentation" are two different, though related, topics of discussion.

The latter instance -- that is, inquiry into the subject -- does not depend on an uncritical acceptance of extraterrestrial intelligence, regardless of a wide dearth of evidence for it, as the former instance -- that is, belief -- does.

Do you see the distinction?

 

[Red3]

Life elsewhere in the universe - absolutely. Alien spacecraft coming here - not so much.

Seconded. Although I'm open to the possibility sort of.

 

[blauregen]

Blauregen, "belief in extraterrestrial intelligence" and an "inquiry into whether or not such intelligence exists utilizing scientific instrumentation" are two different, though related, topics of discussion.

The latter instance -- that is, inquiry into the subject -- does not depend on an uncritical acceptance of extraterrestrial intelligence, regardless of a wide dearth of evidence for it, as the former instance -- that is, belief -- does.

Do you see the distinction?

Regarding the uncritical acceptance, yes. Regarding belief, not completely. Since SETI as an experiment could decide this question in only one possible outcome, it is only a partially suitable instrument for such an inquiry. If I accepted it as such, a similar case could be made for human-to-human-telepathy, which failed to produce clear evidence for a similar long time.

In practice - as I understood - if an inquiry of whether a phenomenon exists, does not net unequivocally positive results after a reasonably long time of investigation, it is assumed to not exist.

If the investigation is continued beyond this reasonable timeframe despite the lack of evidence, I suspect a positive expectancy to get positive results. This would imply a trust in the existence of said phenomenon, or in other words a degree of belief in it's existence.

From this and from the ongoing support for SETI, I gathered that a belief in the existence of intelligent extraterrestrians is an accepted and common belief among skeptics.

 

[makaya325]

From this and from the ongoing support for SETI, I gathered that a belief in the existence of intelligent extraterrestrians is an accepted and common belief among skeptics

Most skeptics consider alien life elsewhere to be possible, only because it is not an extraordinary claim, and that those at SETI are not claiming anything they can not support.

 

[Robert Oz]

Carl Sagan? Since you reference Wikipedia below, let me quote from the same source:

"He pioneered exobiology and promoted the Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence (SETI)."
AND
"Though quite skeptical of any extraordinary answer to the UFO question, Sagan thought scientists should study the phenomenon, at least because there was widespread public interest in UFO reports."
AND
Sagan did think it plausible that Cold War concerns contributed to governments misleading their citizens about UFOs, and that "some UFO reports and analyses, and perhaps voluminous files, have been made inaccessible to the public which pays the bills ... It's time for the files to be declassified and made generally available."
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Sagan).

Yes, that's Carl Sagan, and I have never met a skeptic who didn't regard him as a brilliant man. If there were a skeptic's messiah, Carl Sagan would be him.

Carl Sagan, who supported serious UFO research and would love for intelligent extra-terrestrial life to exist more than anyone, still came to the conclusion that there was no evidence to support the alien hypothesis of UFO phenomena. A skeptic with an open mind.

So if you have a book which refutes these things in Sagan's life then either he was inconsistent or you are.

Actually all of the above was discussed by Sagan in The Demon Haunted World. I, therefore, reiterate my recommendation.

Sleep paralysis?
I agree that there could be something to this explanation, although to date no study has directly observed or inferred that this IS a cause of many "abduction" cases.
To date it is pure speculation and RESEARCH IS NEEDED to find out if this COULD be an explanation.
To date...merely speculation... and speculation just does NOT cut it.
Again I call for research.

Again, all covered in The Demon Haunted World.

Have they?
Where are the historical abduction cases that differ?
As far as I know the first of the abduction cases (so-called) began with the Villas Boas case (1957) and the Hills (1961).
All abduction cases have been REMARKABLY consistent ever since.
Before that we had the "Contactee" cases, but these were NOT abduction cases.
Before that I know of NO cases where "demons to witches to ghosts" abducted ANYBODY.
Do YOU know of any?

Again, all covered in The Demon Haunted World.

<snip rude rant>

Why on earth are you so angry? You can debate the validity of UFO research without being so rude. The majority of the responses to your initial post were quite polite.

Your position on UFO research hasn't brought scorn and ridicule thus far, but your attitude just might.

And THAT is MY point precisely.
(But note also you have just admitted the existence of UFOs - did you mean to do that or was it just another example of uncritical thinking?)

Of course, UFOs exist. If an object is in the sky and is unidentified, it is a UFO by definition.

 

[makaya325]

Of course, UFOs exist. If an object is in the sky and is unidentified, it is a UFO by definition

They remain "unidentified to witnesses", but is there any evidence, such as video footage, that can only be an unidentified flying object? It seems so many UFO video's are labeled hoaxes and misidentifications only

 

[Robert Oz]

Actually all of the above was discussed by Sagan in The Demon Haunted World. I, therefore, reiterate my recommendation.

Seriously, Rramjet, the above was a sincere recommendation. Even if you found yourself disagreeing with Carl Sagan, I think you would respect him and would enjoy the book immensely.

If you do get around to reading The Demon Haunted World, you could start another thread specifically discussing it.

 

[Robert Oz]

They remain "unidentified to witnesses", but is there any evidence, such as video footage, that can only be an unidentified flying object? It seems so many UFO video's are labeled hoaxes and misidentifications only

I'm sure there is plenty of UFO footage that is impossible to identify and would, therefore, remain an unidentified flying object. There is, however, no footage that could only be an alien space-craft.

 

[makaya325]

There is, however, no footage that could only be an alien space-craft

That is true. Alien craft would demonstrate incredible manuevers, Plasma beams, etc., not blurryshakyshort powers!

 

[arthwollipot]

That is true. Alien craft would demonstrate incredible manuevers, Plasma beams, etc., not blurryshakyshort powers!

We actually have no idea what alien craft would demonstrate, since we have no examples from which to generalise.

 

[makaya325]

We actually have no idea what alien craft would demonstrate, since we have no examples from which to generalise.

Assuming that aliens are more advanced than we are, then there craft would be demonstrating things one could only dream of, and unlike anything any nation has ever seen

 

[arthwollipot]

Assuming that aliens are more advanced than we are, then there craft would be demonstrating things one could only dream of, and unlike anything any nation has ever seen

Exactly - that's why we can't assume that they would demonstrate incredible maneuvres or plasma beams.

 

[LandR]

This seems to indicate a degree of belief in intelligent extraterrestrials even among skeptics.

Or maybe a hope rather than a belief. Even for a hardened skeptic to find aliens would be extremely cool.

 

[makaya325]

Or maybe a hope rather than a belief. Even for a hardened skeptic to find aliens would be extremely cool.

You were assuming that Skeptic's have no hopes and dreams?!

 

[LandR]

You were assuming that Skeptic's have no hopes and dreams?!

Not at all

I think to support the search for ET without any evidence for their existence shows they do have hopes that one day they may make contact. I doubt any of them truly believes they exist though, what with the lack of empirical evidence for them.

IMO It would be fantastic to find proof of other life in the universe, intelligent or not. It would be a stunning discovery.

 

[Deranged]

In my opinion, there's no question that we have been and are being visited and watched by objects we've chosen to call unidentified flying objects. To think that we are merely a pinpoint in the universe but all other planets are unihabited is the height of arrogance.
The Roswell retirees, many of them, are now speaking up and revealing what they saw and were told. Some from the highest ranks of military service.
In case you wondered, the ships arrive here using gravity. Gravity allows them to fly faster than the speed of light. Deranged