Archeologly proves the Bible?

[Ladewig]

Obama - he used mind control, is a communist and a muslim, etc

The entry starts with "allegedly[2][3][4][5][6] born in Honolulu Aug. 4, 1961." The very first word of the entry shows their perspective. Wow. That's hard core right wing.

 

[joobz]

Conservapedia is a reaction to Wikipedia which was founded by an atheist. What is your evidence that Conservapedia is a racist/antiSemetic site? And I noticed you didn't rebut anything the site said in my quote.

You complain about "blaming the messanger" but felt the need to highlght that wikipedia as started by an atheist. Unfortunately for you, that doesn't at all make wikipedia any more or less reliable.

As far as conservapedia being started as a conservative answer against wiki, I stand by my statement. The only complaint to wiki is that reality as a liberal bias.

There is no need to rebut the site because it's more opinion than fact.

A post like yours is a sad attempt to taint the messenger. What you left out is that I had no knowledge of what kind of site that other site was because I was more concerned about the info I got off the site which was that Thomas Jefferson claimed he was a Christian and the site showed a copy of the actual letter with Jefferson's signature. And you didn't rebut that info either.

and it was clear that that site presented that argument without balancing it against the plethora of other quotes which show Jefferson as a diest and not a christian in the sense you wish it to mean.

In this thread regarding archeological evidence, You offer quotes to opinion sites rather than factual points.

 

[eccles]

Messianic claimants

I did not realise there were so many claiments named as the Messiah:

Although we cannot be certain whether a person in Antiquity was indeed called a Messiah (and by whom), the list of messianic claimants in modern literature seems endless. At the moment, it seems a common idea that ancient Judea and Galilee were crowded with Messiahs. It may have been so, but we simply cannot know. The main problem is that our most important source, the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, felt a strong dislike for messianism and knew that the Romans shared this dislike. Consequently, he refused to use the title, except for Jesus of Nazareth. Modern scholars, however, suspect that several people mentioned by Josephus were in fact called Messiah, but it is of course tricky to try to know it better than the ancients. The following men, however, are likely candidates.


1. Judas, son of Hezekiah (4 BCE)
2. Simon of Peraea (4 BCE)
3. Athronges, the shepherd (4 BCE)
4. Judas, the Galilean (6 CE)
5. John the Baptist (c.28 CE)
6. Jesus of Nazareth (c.30 CE)
7. The Samaritan prophet (36 CE)
8. King Herod Agrippa (44 CE)
9. Theudas (45 CE)
10. The Egyptian prophet (52-58 CE)
11. An anonymous prophet (59 CE)
12. Menahem, the son of Judas the Galilean (66 CE)
13. John of Gischala (67-70 CE)
14. Vespasian (67 CE)
15. Simon bar Giora (69-70 CE)
16. Jonathan, the weaver (73 CE)
17. Lukuas (115 CE)
18. Simon ben Kosiba (132-135)
19. Moses of Crete (448)

To which must be added Brian of Nazareth making a nice round number of 20, "eh, Biggus Dickus"

http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah/messianic_claimants00.html



Robert

 

[Elizabeth I]

DOC:

I'm still waiting for a response to my post on the innacuracies in Gamaliel's speech in Acts. Are you going to keep up this habit you seem to have developed of simply ignoring my posts? Also, neither you nor Kathy have made any response to what I've said about archaeology and history not supporting either Exodus or Joshua.

Repeating in case doc has Tim Callahan on ignore -

 

[amb]

Show the proof DOC and not "proof" dug up by some quack "Archaeologist" with a Bible and Spade.

I'll save you the trouble. There is NONE.

Capiche?



[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/338944a84c296124e7.png[/qimg]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/338944a927d97a44d4.png[/qimg] Robert

Isn't that capish?

 

[amb]

I did not realise there were so many claiments named as the Messiah:

Although we cannot be certain whether a person in Antiquity was indeed called a Messiah (and by whom), the list of messianic claimants in modern literature seems endless. At the moment, it seems a common idea that ancient Judea and Galilee were crowded with Messiahs. It may have been so, but we simply cannot know. The main problem is that our most important source, the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, felt a strong dislike for messianism and knew that the Romans shared this dislike. Consequently, he refused to use the title, except for Jesus of Nazareth. Modern scholars, however, suspect that several people mentioned by Josephus were in fact called Messiah, but it is of course tricky to try to know it better than the ancients. The following men, however, are likely candidates.


1. Judas, son of Hezekiah (4 BCE)
2. Simon of Peraea (4 BCE)
3. Athronges, the shepherd (4 BCE)
4. Judas, the Galilean (6 CE)
5. John the Baptist (c.28 CE)
6. Jesus of Nazareth (c.30 CE)
7. The Samaritan prophet (36 CE)
8. King Herod Agrippa (44 CE)
9. Theudas (45 CE)
10.
The Egyptian prophet (52-58 CE)
11. An anonymous prophet (59 CE)
12. Menahem, the so of Juddas the Galilean (66 CE)
13. John of Gischala (67-70 E)
14.
Vespasian (67 CE)
15. Simon bar Giora (69-70 CE)
6. JoJonathan, the weaver (73 CE)
17. Lukuas (115 CE)
1Simon on ben Kosiba (132-13519.
Moses ses of Crete (448)

To which must be added Brian of Nazareth making a nice round number of 20, "eh, Biggus Dickus"

://www/liviusvius.org/men-mh/messiah/messianic_claimants00.html

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/338944a84c296124e7.png[/qimg]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/338944a927d97a44d4.png[/qimg] Robert

Wasn't Apollonius of Tyana first century miracle worker who also claimed to have raised the dead, also a claiment of messiahship?

 

[pakeha]

There is that word "prove" again. I never said the photo of the skull outside the Church of the Holy Sepulchre proved anything, but it is archaeological evidence for Gogotha as are the 1st century tombs that are under the church. It's just another piece of evidence to place on the scale.

The last time I looked, photos of casual rock formations weren't normally included in discussions of archeological evidence.
Those tombs, by the way, are dated according to the techniques used in their excavation. These techniques are consistent with dating from 100 bc to 100 ad.
Hardly rock solid evidence.

 

[eccles]

Wasn't Apollonius of Tyana first century miracle worker who also claimed to have raised the dead, also a claiment of messiahship?

Not actually a claiment.

Apollonius of Tyana (Greek: Ἀπολλώνιος ὁ Τυανεύς; ca. 15?–ca. 100? AD[2]) was a Greek Neopythagorean philosopher and teacher. He hailed from the town of Tyana in the Roman province of Cappadocia in Asia Minor. A contemporary of Jesus of Nazareth, the life and wandering mission of Apollonius is often compared to his.

After his lifetime, Apollonius' name remained famous among philosophers and occultists. In a "novelistic invention"[3] inserted in the Historia Augusta, Aurelian, at the siege of Tyana in 272, was said to have experienced a visionary dream in which Aurelian claimed to have seen Apollonius speak to him, beseeching him to spare the city of his birth. In part, Aurelian said that Apollonius told him "Aurelian, if you desire to rule, abstain from the blood of the innocent! Aurelian, if you will conquer, be merciful!"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Tyana

I have his life story (as it is known).



Robert

 

[TimCallahan]

I still have no response from either Kurious Kathy or DOC to my very specific points on:

1) The failure of archaeology or history to support the Exocdus and Conquest narratives.

2) The lack of any archaeological or historical suppport for the united monarchy under David and Solomon.

3) The historical inaccuracies of Gamaliel's speech in the Book of Acts.

Both of them - claiming, as Christians, to present utimate truth - stand condemned for their dishonesty.

 

[joobz]

I still have no response from either Kurious Kathy or DOC to my very specific points on:

Your primary mistake is in making lucid, rational arguments. KK and DOC, even if they reponded to you, wouldn't be anything close to an honest response.

But, I respect your arguments and thank you for making them.

 

[Elizabeth I]

Your primary mistake is in making lucid, rational arguments. KK and DOC, even if they reponded to you, wouldn't be anything close to an honest response.

But, I respect your arguments and thank you for making them.

To "lucid, rational" I would add "knowledgeable" and "well-researched."

 

[joobz]

To "lucid, rational" I would add "knowledgeable" and "well-researched."

I agree, 100%.

 

[TimCallahan]

Thanks for you kind words, Elzabeth I and joobz. Here's somehing else for DOC and Kathy to chew on. In 2 Kings the Bible rightly records that Sennacherib assaulted the cities of Judah, sacking most of them, and beseiged Jerusalem. It's also true that the Assyrians didn't take Jerusalem, but contanted themselves with enough tribute to beggar King Hezekiah.

However, 2 Kings 19:35 says:

And that night the angel of the LORD went forth, and slew a hudred and eighty-five thousand in the camp of the Assyrians; and when men arose early in the morning, behold, these were all dead bodies.

The loss of an entire army of 185,000 men would have been devastating to the Assyrian empire, particualrly when even raising and provisioning an army of 100,000 men would have been a massive undertaking, even for a comparitive super-power like Assyria. Yet both archaeology and history show that the Assyrian Empire continued to remain powerful and to grow. Sennacherib's son, Esarhaddon conquered the Nile delta; and his successor, Assurbanipul, conquered upper Egypt as well.

There is absolutely no support for the utter destruction of an entire Assyrian army of 185,000 in the time of Hezekiah.

 

[pakeha]

Indeed, quite the contrary:

As for Hezekiah the Judahite, who did not submit to my yoke: forty-six of his strong, walled cities, as well as the small towns in their area, which were without number, by levelling with battering-rams and by bringing up seige-engines, and by attacking and storming on foot, by mines, tunnels, and breeches, I besieged and took them. 200,150 people, great and small, male and female, horses, mules, asses, camels, cattle and sheep without number, I brought away from them and counted as spoil. (Hezekiah) himself, like a caged bird I shut up in Jerusalem, his royal city. I threw up earthworks against him— the one coming out of the city-gate, I turned back to his misery. His cities, which I had despoiled, I cut off from his land, and to Mitinti, king of Ashdod, Padi, king of Ekron, and Silli-bêl, king of Gaza, I gave (them). And thus I diminished his land. I added to the former tribute, and I laid upon him the surrender of their land and imposts—gifts for my majesty. As for Hezekiah, the terrifying splendor of my majesty overcame him, and the Arabs and his mercenary troops which he had brought in to strengthen Jerusalem, his royal city, deserted him. In addition to the thirty talents of gold and eight hundred talents of silver, gems, antimony, jewels, large carnelians, ivory-inlaid couches, ivory-inlaid chairs, elephant hides, elephant tusks, ebony, boxwood, all kinds of valuable treasures, as well as his daughters, his harem, his male and female musicians, which he had brought after me to Nineveh, my royal city. To pay tribute and to accept servitude, he dispatched his messengers..

From:
http://www.bible-history.com/empires/prism.html

 

[TimCallahan]

Yes, this is a famous uote from Ancient Near-Eastern Texts (ANET). Interestingly, many Christian apologists are quite familiar with it.

 

[pakeha]

hi, TimCallahan.
Whilst reading up on Hezekiah and the Assyrians I became aware of a most peculiar dissassociative tendency in the sources.
On the one hand, the sources claim the 'angels of the Lord' liquidated 180,000 Assyrian soldiers when they laid seige to Jerusalem and because of this the army of Sennacherib withdrew, etc.
OK.
On the other hand, the same source says the Assyrian armies, after devastating northern Judaea withdrew from besieging Jerusalem because Hezekiah paid tribute, a heavy tribute, quoting that lovely seal text, among others.

So we have a documented occupation and defeat of the Israelites with a payment of tribute, etc. to the Assyrians, which event in the OT is protrayed as the reverse, a miraculous salvation of Jerusalem by the angels of the Lord.

I'm confused. Again.

 

[pakeha]

Originally Posted by pakeha
General Gordon's 'discovery' of the Garden Tomb does form part and parcel of the times in which Sir Willliam Ramsey lived.
Like Sir William Ramsay's conclusions, they have been overtaken by modern aarcheology.
Interestingly enough, the Wiki article DOC got the photo from points that out.

List the conclusions by Sir W. M. Ramsay in his 15 years of research that have been overtaken by modern archaeology (and your sources). Can you name more than one?

Ah, that was a good laugh, DOC.
Thanks.

While DOC means well, obviously he's aware of the only conclusion of the outdated Sir William discussed over these multiple threads:
the one DOC brought up himself and continues to bring up all over the board.

hint: remember 'Luke' and the Census date?

 

[amb]

Not actually a claiment.

Apollonius of Tyana (Greek: Ἀπολλώνιος ὁ Τυανεύς; ca. 15?–ca. 100? AD[2]) was a Greek Neopythagorean philosopher and teacher. He hailed from the town of Tyana in the Roman province of Cappadocia in Asia Minor. A contemporary of Jesus of Nazareth, the life and wandering mission of Apollonius is often compared to his.

After his lifetime, Apollonius' name remained famous among philosophers and occultists. In a "novelistic invention"[3] inserted in the Historia Augusta, Aurelian, at the siege of Tyana in 272, was said to have experienced a visionary dream in which Aurelian claimed to have seen Apollonius speak to him, beseeching him to spare the city of his birth. In part, Aurelian said that Apollonius told him "Aurelian, if you desire to rule, abstain from the blood of the innocent! Aurelian, if you will conquer, be merciful!"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Tyana

I have his life story (as it is known).

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/338944a84c296124e7.png[/qimg]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/338944a927d97a44d4.png[/qimg] Robert

I didn't mean he claimed messiah ship. Others of the time did on his behalf.

 

[TimCallahan]

hi, TimCallahan.
Whilst reading up on Hezekiah and the Assyrians I became aware of a most peculiar dissassociative tendency in the sources.
On the one hand, the sources claim the 'angels of the Lord' liquidated 180,000 Assyrian soldiers when they laid seige to Jerusalem and because of this the army of Sennacherib withdrew, etc.
OK.
On the other hand, the same source says the Assyrian armies, after devastating northern Judaea withdrew from besieging Jerusalem because Hezekiah paid tribute, a heavy tribute, quoting that lovely seal text, among others.

So we have a documented occupation and defeat of the Israelites with a payment of tribute, etc. to the Assyrians, which event in the OT is protrayed as the reverse, a miraculous salvation of Jerusalem by the angels of the Lord.

I'm confused. Again.

The reason you're confused is that the account in 2 Kings is a bit confused. Beginning in chapter 18, verse 13, is the story of Hezekiah paying Sennacherib the required tribute after the Assyrians have taken all the fortified cities of Judah. In his message to Sennacherib in verse 14, Hezekiah says, "I have done wrong," which would seem to allude to the reason Sennacherib is attacking Judah. Historically, this was because Hezekiah had joined a general revolt of the western provinces againt the Assyrian Empire.

Then, for some unaccountable reason, in verse 17 Sennacherib sends his tartan (a general in charge of a region) to attack Jerusalem. This ultimately leads to the angel destroying the 185,000 Assyrians in a single night.

The story is further confused by the episode in 2 Kings 20:12 - 18, in which Hezekiah shows envoys from Merodoch-baladan, king of Babylon his treasure. The prophet Isaiah tells him that, because he has done this, the royal treasure will be carried off to Babylon, where Hezekiah's sons will also be, as eunuchs. Because of this historically garbled structure we have no idea why Hezekiah is showing his royal trasure to envoys from Babylon.

Historically, this incident in chapter 20, which happens after the destruction of the Assyrian army, should actually precede Sennacherib's attack. What actually happened was that in 705, upon the accession of Sennacherib to the Assyrian throne, Marduk-apaliddina (Merodoch-baladan in 2 Kings), Chaldean king of Babylon (tibutary to Assyria), initiated a general revolt against the Assyrians. Hezekiah showing his treasure to the envoys from Babylon indicates his support for the revolt. Sennacherib got wind of the conspiracy and moved on Babylon and drove the out the Chaldeans to suppress the rebellion. However, the western provinces were already committed to the plot. They asked the Egyptian to sponsor their revolt in place of the Chaldeans. The Egyptians agreed, but were ineffectual.

The revolt collapsed under the determined assault of Sennacherib's army. Most of the conspirators sued for peace upon the approach of the Assyrians. Hezekiah was left to face the Assyrians alone, trusting apparently in the Egyptians and in divine intervention. The result of this was that, while the other rebels suffered relatively minor damage at the hands of the Assyrians, Sennacherib utterly devastated Judea, sacking every city but Jerusalem. He ultimately spared Jerusalem, possibly considering a staggering tribute and Hezekiah's submission to be sufficient and preferable to a long seige of a city that would have been difficult to take.

The garbled account in 2 Kings appears to result from an attempt to accommodate history to some degree, while still making Yahweh supreme with the fabricated story of the angel slaughtering the 185,000 Assyrians.

 

[TimCallahan]

Kathy and DOC:

I'm still waiting for your responses. Bear in mind that I have never gotten personal with either one of you. I have simply made specific points about archaeology and history, pointing out that they often do not support the biblical narratives. It's quite rude of you not to respond to my posts, particularly when you have initially been quite outspoken in your contention that archaeology does support the Bible. Tell me, is the rudeness you display by ignoring my posts part of your Christian witness?