Merged National Geographic Special - "9/11 Science and Conspiracy" Debunks Thermite Myth

Thus the cessation of toppling proves that the top section encountered no resistance which discounts the theory of gravity induced collapse.

There is no evidence that the rotation ceased, so your reasoning is unfounded.

The fulcrum doesn't disappear, the entire end or base of the top section is the fulcrum no matter what shape it's in, the fact is the centre of mass is offest from the fulcrum point which means that any pressure against the base of the top section would add torque causing the mass to topple.

This is a remarkable case of geometrical illiteracy. The existence of a fulcrum depends on a limited area of contact between the upper and lower blocks, and therefore is dependent only on "what shape it's in" and on nothing else. Once the initial hinge collapses - which, again, is (beyond obviously) the moment at which the upper block starts to descend, there is no more fulcrum, as impacts are taking place between the upper and lower blocks at all points across the interface between them.

In order for the mass to apply it's weight to evenly collapse the building, the centre of mass must be directly over the lower section.

Since the collapse was not even - videos clearly show that the height of the collapse front varied across the structure - this claim is irrelevant to the actual collapse.

Dave
 
Absolute Proof of demolitions

The top section of the south tower begins to topple due to the localized structural damage, to an angle of about 23 degrees. Basic physics shows that the shift in centre of mass due to the angle means that any torque imparted by gravitational pressure on the lower section accelerates the rotation. The base of the top section acting as a fulcrum. Thus the more gravitational pressure the top section provides, the more toppling would occur. Shills have lamely suggested that the collapsing of columns absorbs the angular momentum, but the top section is still at a 23 degree angle thus any resistance the lower section offers contributes to the rotation via torque at the fulcrum point due to the angle and shifted centre of mass.
Thus the cessation of toppling proves that the top section encountered no resistance which discounts the theory of gravity induced collapse.
This is the moment, if this was "Physics Chase (like Paper Chase)", the professor would give you a cell phone to call your mom and tell her, "there are serious doubts you will become an engineer".

Please present your paper using your new made up physics based on what you think should happen to support your vast conspiracy born out of anti-intellectual claptrap which formed your delusional version of 911.

Did you forget to do the calculations to support this joke you posted? Can you post them? Thank you
 
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Completely fallacious. The fulcrum doesn't disappear, the entire end or base of the top section is the fulcrum no matter what shape it's in, the fact is the centre of mass is offest from the fulcrum point which means that any pressure against the base of the top section would add torque causing the mass to topple. In order for the mass to apply it's weight to evenly collapse the building, the centre of mass must be directly over the lower section. This is basic and irrefutable.

"Basic and irrefutable" means something different to me than it does to you.

Your entire belief, apparently, rests on the notion that the lower block of WTC 2 didn't collapse at all. You require the "fulcrum" supplies a resisting force over the entire duration of collapse, and you require that the upper block does not experience any restoring force as it hits and collapses lower floors, in clear contravention of Newton's Third Law.

It's extremely simple to show why you're wrong. Just draw a force diagram of the collapse as underway, and you'll see it. No point getting angry, either, that won't help your case.
 
National geographic is givin apologizes in the next new program about the distorsions about the reality in the first national geographic report , they have made mistakes and lies like were in the FEMA and The NIST reports , obviously the FEMA and NIST reports are plagued with lies because the FEMA and NIST reports have conflict interest with the reality and the truth about what really happened the 9/11 , the money in the pocket of the FEMA and NIST workers depend if they are able to destroy the evidence of controlled demolition of 9/11 , if they tell the truth the bush administration dont give anymore money to them

is English your first language?

TAM:)
 
Completely fallacious. The fulcrum doesn't disappear, the entire end or base of the top section is the fulcrum no matter what shape it's in, the fact is the centre of mass is offest from the fulcrum point which means that any pressure against the base of the top section would add torque causing the mass to topple. In order for the mass to apply it's weight to evenly collapse the building, the centre of mass must be directly over the lower section. This is basic and irrefutable.

I'm not an engineer and even I can see how absolutely wrong that is.

Did someone say you were studying engineering or something?
 
In order for the mass to apply it's weight to evenly collapse the building, the centre of mass must be directly over the lower section. This is basic and irrefutable.

No, this is wrong and totally refutable, I'm sorry to say. Are you one of those who think all the experts are wrong or you have somehow figured out something they missed?
 
Red Ibis, how did the DNA of the passengers of flight 77 found its way to the Pentagon rubble?

Actually, it wasn't an MIT guy, it was this guy:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a154/perdalis/Image33.png

who talked about this diagram:
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a154/perdalis/Image44.png

In yellow the remains of the pilots, in blue the passengers.

Care to explain this Red?

It's a diagram of the passengers' DNA evidence found at the Pentagon. How did it get there, and in that disposition?

Here's a more official diagram:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a154/perdalis/barbdna_lge.jpg
In blue the passengers, in yellow Pentagon personnel, in dark probably include the highjakers.



Take your time.
 
Thus the cessation of toppling proves that the top section encountered no resistance which discounts the theory of gravity induced collapse.

This is proven wrong by other observations.

There was a visible bend/kink in the east face of top section of the south tower, most stark at the meeting of the regular perimeter and the hat truss floors:
102524aa7e65a7d003.jpg


This is a pretty clear indication that the perimeter wall was under considerable stress as it helped rip away the floorplates below, with the much more rigid hat truss floors able to resist this deformation.


Second, there is a video here which plays the collapse back and forth, showing that the entire bottom section shifted to the north/west as the top section began to descend: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLkyEvWe9mY

That is approximately 200,000 tons of mass that is visibly deflecting in the direction we would expect given the rotation of the upper block. How then could the top section be encountering no resistance?
 
Originally Posted by SabreTruthTiger
In order for the mass to apply it's weight to evenly collapse the building, the centre of mass must be directly over the lower section. This is basic and irrefutable.

If a long object is rotating about a pivot point at its base and the pivot point suddenly is removed (as when the building begins its collapse and the columns are buckling) the roatation will no longer be about that pivot point but about the center of mass of the , now falling, long object.

the center of mass of the upper section was never at any point in any video, beyond the perimeter of the lower structure which means that once it began its fall most of the upper structure's mass was still over the lower structure and falling DOWNWARD as it basically rotated slowly about its center of mass.
 
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Is sabretruthtiger saying that the upper section's center of mass was not over the lower section?
 
Is sabretruthtiger saying that the upper section's center of mass was not over the lower section?


I am not sure exactly what he/she is trying to say. It sounds like a strange combination of 28th Kingdom's "the top section would slide off to the side" with maybe a touch of Graeme McQueen thrown in there. A diagram of what he/she thinks happened would help.
 
In order for the mass to apply it's weight to evenly collapse the building, the centre of mass must be directly over the lower section. This is basic and irrefutable.

He is trying to say that in order for the collapse to be "even" that the center of mass must be not only over the lower section (which is what his words actually state) but I believe that he is also saying that it must be centered along the long axis of the structure as well.

The first point(again, what his words actually stated) is a moot point given that the center of mass was never outside the perimeter of the lower section.

The second point (where I admit, I am assuming this is what he is trying to say) is bunk. All that is required is that enough mass be falling through to fail the floor pans of the lower storeys. We know that the core collapse lagged the collapse of the floors and perimeter systems which is to be expected if the core failed due primarily to its inherent instability once the lateral support of the floor trusses/perimeter columns was lost.


Next up, he will be saying that WTC 7 fell to the south so that no other buildings would be damaged.
 
Being my first post here, I suppose I should mention I found this thread by searching Google for forums discussing the Natural Geographic program. I had hope that as a forum dedicated to critical thinking their would be more discussion about the absurdly of their "experiments", such as the lame attempt to "prove" thermite won't melt steal by placing lose bags of low grade thermite around a beam. However, having skimmed though the thread without finding much discussion about arguments presented by program itself, I'll move to the topic at hand. But before I do, I implore you all to please take my words only for what they say and do your best avoid reading else anything into them.

He is trying to say that in order for the collapse to be "even" that the center of mass must be not only over the lower section (which is what his words actually state) but I believe that he is also saying that it must be centered along the long axis of the structure as well.

I'm fairly sure he is saying; as the mass goes off center from the structure bellow it, more pressure will be applied to the side the structure which the mass above is tilting towards, leaving less force pushing down the other side. Such crumbling of one side as the top portion continued to pivot would leave more of the other side standing as the top eventually came to a rest, either prior to it's center of mass moving outside the structure, or otherwise after tumbling off to the side.

For a simplified example; imagine taking a milk carton and flatting down the top, and then dropping a brick on it. Assuming the brick came down perfectly centered on the carton, that carton could conceivably crumple down fairly evenly to some extent or another. However, far more likely is the possibility that variations on the structural integrity of the carton would cause it to give way towards one direction or the other, resulting in the brick sliding off towards the weakest side. The only way you are going to crush the whole carton down into it's footprint is by dropping the brick perfectly square on top of it from a massive height, or wetting the carton down to the point of almost completely compromising it's structural integrity.

Again, please do not mistake my statements to mean more than they do. I am not claiming the government planned 9/11, there were no-planes, or any other such crackpottery. I am simply pointing out the the physical evidence of destruction of the towers is not consistent with the official story of progressive collapse, but rather is indicative of some means of controlled demolition. Also, while I would prefer to sick to strict discussion of the available evidence, I would be willing to provide a plausible theory as to how the buildings could have become rigged to blow, if others insist.
 
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Also, while I would prefer to sick to strict discussion of the available evidence, I would be willing to provide a plausible theory as to how the buildings could have become rigged to blow, if others insist.

I insist.
 
Also, while I would prefer to sick to strict discussion of the available evidence, I would be willing to provide a plausible theory as to how the buildings could have become rigged to blow, if others insist.


Please do. Though you'd be the first in all 8 years from the "alternate theory" crowd to do so.
 
I would be willing to provide a plausible theory as to how the buildings could have become rigged to blow, if others insist.

This oughta be good...

And welcome to the forum.
 
"lose bags of low grade thermite."

Low? Grade? Thermite?

Really? You are going to include that in your first post here? Wow.
 
I appreciate the friendly welcome, as for the question; put simply, the buildings could have been rigged to blow for the sake of public safety. Imagine how much much death and destruction would have resulted had the top of the building slid off the side. Then imagine how even more horrific the results would have been had the towers been toppled over after being bombed at their bases.

Those were undeniable possibilities, particularly after the 1993 bombing. In the worst case scenario of such an attack, being able to demolish the towers into their footprint, or at least as they fell, would prevent a far worse situation than what otherwise would have resulted. Granted, telling the public at large that such high value targets are rigged to blow would result in many being irrationally wary of ever going near them. So those involved would have to be sworn to secrecy, and at least most with little or nothing to compel them to come forward with such information today.

"lose bags of low grade thermite."

Low? Grade? Thermite?

Really? You are going to include that in your first post here? Wow.
Your argument here is rather ambiguous. Are you contending that thremite only comes in one grade, or simply suggesting they used the good stuff in the NG program?
 
I appreciate the friendly welcome, as for the question; put simply, the buildings could have been rigged to blow for the sake of public safety. Imagine how much much death and destruction would have resulted had the top of the building slid off the side. Then imagine how even more horrific the results would have been had the towers been toppled over after being bombed at their bases.

Those were undeniable possibilities, particularly after the 1993 bombing. In the worst case scenario of such an attack, being able to demolish the towers into their footprint, or at least as they fell, would prevent a far worse situation than what otherwise would have resulted. Granted, telling the public at large that such high value targets are rigged to blow would result in many being irrationally wary of ever going near them. So those involved would have to be sworn to secrecy, and at least most with little or nothing to compel them to come forward with such information today.
...

You are suggesting that a huge office building in the heart of the financial district of NYC was rigged with bombs for, wait for it, PUBLIC SAFETY?

This was done some time between 1993 and 2001 in secret by demolition experts.

After the towers collapsed, none of these secret demolitions men thought they should say anything about all of those bombs they'd hidden in there...

This makes more sense to you than a gravity driven collapse?

REALLY?
 

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