9/11-investigator explains the Holocaust

[Uninvolved]

Why does anyone owe any sort of loyalty to their 'own people'?

Because one wants to center his entire life around "serving his country", for example in the position of a Senator; and that does, I would say, include the people as well.

 

[Twiler]

Because one wants to center his entire life around "serving his country", for example in the position of a Senator; and that does, I would say, include the people as well.

Fair point, but I don't think 9/11 Investigator was referring to the inhabitants of the USA when he said 'his own people'.

 

[Jontg]

You know, Investigator, on a purely intellectual level, I know that you're most likely a small cluster of trolls, jerking us around and laughing at your obvious intellectual superiority over us gullible, easily-manipulated sheeple--and even on that premise, your willingness to use the Shoah as a tool makes you utterly detestable. You are, in my eyes, an ethical outlaw, exempt from any protections that my conscience, my personal code, or my basic human empathy would normally afford you. I was honestly a little surprised at first that my posts haven't been edited or deleted--but then I realized that I wouldn't lift a finger to defend you either. Even Dictator Cheney seems to think you're disgusting, and he's... well, he's Dictator Cheney. I retract my previous statement about Hitler making you look good; you make Hitler look good. At least der Fuhrer owned up to what he did.

 

[9/11-investigator]

You know, Investigator, on a purely intellectual level, I know that you're most likely a small cluster of trolls, jerking us around and laughing at your obvious intellectual superiority over us gullible, easily-manipulated sheeple--and even on that premise, your willingness to use the Shoah as a tool makes you utterly detestable. You are, in my eyes, an ethical outlaw, exempt from any protections that my conscience, my personal code, or my basic human empathy would normally afford you. I was honestly a little surprised at first that my posts haven't been edited or deleted--but then I realized that I wouldn't lift a finger to defend you either. Even Dictator Cheney seems to think you're disgusting, and he's... well, he's Dictator Cheney. I retract my previous statement about Hitler making you look good; you make Hitler look good. At least der Fuhrer owned up to what he did.

OK, that's enough moral chest stumping. Stay on topic and provide us with the documents you say you have (he doesn't) that prove that millions were deliberately slaughtered by the Nazi's.

 

[Jontg]

There's a link to a vast repository of them near the start of the thread, O valiant resistance member.

 

[9/11-investigator]

For Part Three of their television documentary Der Tod, ein Meister aus Deutschland (broadcast on May 2, 1990) Jäckel and Rosh showed this photograph, while the commentator spoke these words: "Meanwhile, in 1941 tens of thousands of Jews are rounded up aboard cattletrucks in Romania and shipped to the gas chambers in Auschwitz." The women carrying shopping bags, and the double-decker train to the left, were painted out.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/docs/people/Jaeckel/JaeckelFake2.html

Once you have your story in place you can invent what you want, insult what you want, demand what you want. And that my friends has had it's day. America is about to collapse: financially, military and morally. And not a day too early. It's been a colony of 'Israel' for a century now. But not much longer. It has been revealed today that the nano-thermite that was used to destroy WTC was designed in an Israeli laboratory. It's either this or the coming fall of the dollar that's going to initiate it's downfall.

Good dramatized Dutch documentary (English subs) about the day the dollar fell (hour to hour description of events around the world)

Warning: cataract ahead.

 

[Pardalis]

Oh yes, Bollyn is about the reveal who produced the nano-thermite.

Boy, having Bollyn attached to the thermite theory it'll sure invalidate it altogether. Can't wait.

 

[9/11-investigator]

There's a link to a vast repository of them near the start of the thread, O valiant resistance member.

Gone is the moral outrage. Poseur.
I sense a certain reluctance to repost the link.

I am not going to read through a 'vast repository'. This is a forum, not a school where teachers are providing homework to their pupils. You want to make a point: make your claim in a summary and back it up with material. Then I'll address it.

 

[Twiler]

Gone is the moral outrage. Poseur.
I sense a certain reluctance to repost the link.

I am not going to read through a 'vast repository'. This is a forum, not a school where teachers are providing homework to their pupils. You want to make a point: make your claim in a summary and back it up with material. Then I'll address it.

From now on I'm just going to imagine what your posts say for myself, as it's a complete waste of time reading them.

...

Really? And no-one found the bodies?

 

[Jontg]

Gone is the credibility, troll. Nobody as fluent in English as you are would let plain sarcasm fly right over their head. Try again.
Also, I hope you choke on it:

Here are roughly 19,000 pieces of evidence

http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/php/docs_swi.php?DI=1&text=overview

And the 42 volumes of trial transcripts

http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/NT_major-war-criminals.html

Please feel free to refute this body of work - I dont have to prove anything, that was done 60 years ago. You unfortunately have the burdon of proof squarely at your feet

And one final note: the zyklon-B delivery system used by the Nazis would not have been able to delouse one sock. Killing lice with zyklon-b requires exposing the clothing to a low concentration of the gas for a long period of time; lice aren't really bothered by relatively brief exposure. The chambers in question exposed whatever was in them to vast amounts of the gas for about twenty minutes--not enough to kill lice, but perfectly suited to killing humans.

 

[Uninvolved]

the zyklon-B delivery system used by the Nazis would not have been able to delouse one sock. Killing lice with zyklon-b requires exposing the clothing to a low concentration of the gas for a long period of time; lice aren't really bothered by relatively brief exposure

You will be surprized: the camps had de-lousing chambers just for this purpose; that's what the Zyclon-B was for.

The chambers in question exposed whatever was in them to vast amounts of the gas for about twenty minutes--not enough to kill lice, but perfectly suited to killing humans.

I know that there are billions of "proofs", but still I have some questions:


Which chambers do you mind specifically, in which camp?

Where is the proof for those chambers having been used to kill people?

Which chambers have been thoroughly examined?

 

[ddt]

ddt is intentionally misrepresenting my position. He suggest that my position is that nothing happened. That is ridiculous.

What I do say is this:

- there was a program to remove all the Jews from Nazi-occupied territory for relocation to the East (like the American government carried out on illegals in operation wetback)
- many Jews were used as slave laborers
- the conditions in the camps were horrible, many people died as a consequence (typhus, deprivation, sickness)
- the Germans recorded some 270,000 people (many Jews) who died in the camps. Obviously this happened
- hundreds of thousand of Jews (many partizans, partizans as in: trying to kill Germans) were machine gunned to death at the eastern front

What is highly in doubt is the gassing story, the deliberate attempt of exterminating a complete people as government policy. I am not ruling out that it happened on a smaller scale as generally accepted but it has to be proven first. Most likely it is war propaganda gone wild.

Thanks for making my point. You deny there was a deliberate government policy to attempt to exterminate European Jewry - let's be honest, the "highly in doubt" you write is just a smokescreen.

 

[ddt]

This is a muddy claim. What is "government policy"? How many top leaders must know about it? Who must decided it, so that it becomes "government policy"?

It is highly debated, inconclusively, if Hitler ever gave such command. First it was claimed that it was proven in writing, but this is not on the table any more (except, I guess, with some posters here, like the one who still claims 4 million vistims in Auschwitz). But is that decisive regarding "government policy"? Add to that, that Hitler's recorded statements are often contradicting; how do we know, when he was lying and when he changed his mind? And does that matter?

Himmler's "Posen speeches" were very explicite (some are disputing that too). If only Himmler had given the commands, was that government policy or not?

To make it even muddier, the "government policy", whatever that is, was not constant. Supporting immigration in Palestinia and enforcing settlement in Madagaskar were different from deportation in the occupied Soviet regions, the latter meaning death with high probability.

The part exterminating a complete people is even more of a problem. If that was really a policy, then why have been hundreds of thousands kept in those camp, where no mass killing took place? And no, not only those were there, who were needed for their labour.

All in all, I would drop the "government policy" claim, no matter which side one defends or disputes.

In effect, this is the old claim of Irving's that "Hitler didn't order the Final Solution", isn't it?

Let's focus on one seminal point - the Wannseekonferenz. Reichsmarschall Göring - Hitler's designated successor - ordered Heydrich to organize the Endlösung and to co-ordinate the participation of all government agencies involved.

Who were present at the Wannseekonferenz, apart from Heydrich himself? Look at the minutes:

Gauleiter Dr. Meyer and Reichsamtleiter Dr. Leibbrandt -
Reich Ministry for the Occupied Eastern territories

Secretary of State Dr. Stuckart - Reich Ministry for the Interior

Secretary of State Neumann - Plenipotentiary for the Four Year Plan

Secretary of State Dr. Freisler - Reich Ministry of Justice

Secretary of State Dr. Bühler - Office of the Government General

Under Secretary of State Foreign Office - Dr. Luther

SS-Oberführer Klopfer - Party Chancellery

Ministerialdirektor Kritzinger - Reich Chancellery

SS-Gruppenführer Hofmann - Race and Settlement Main Office

SS-Gruppenführer Müller, SS-Obersturmbannführer Eichmann - Reich Main Security Office

SS-Oberführer Dr. Schöngarth, Commander of the Security Police and the SD in the Government General - Security Police and SD

SS-Sturmbannführer Dr. Lange, Commander of the Security Police and the SD for the General-District Latvia, as deputy of the Commander of the Security Police and the SD for the Reich Commissariat "Eastland" - Security Police and SD

That's pretty much your whole Nazi government and party apparatus involved. And all these ministries and agencies were invited at that high level because their cooperation for the Endlösung was needed. No, trying to say "it wasn't government policy" is as hypocritical as saying "ich habe es nicht gewusst".

 

[Uninvolved]

Let's focus on one seminal point - the Wannseekonferenz

The Wannsee Conference is not of much use; it has been interpreted and re-interpreted again for the lack of anything definitive. Its relevance is disputed even by some Jewish historians.

Shermer and Grobman explain, that a special dictionary is required for the "correct" interpretation, for the Germans were too shy to talk in cleartext (yes, they were well known of that, right?).

Furthermore, not only that there were many exceptions, but hundreds of thousands of Jews have not been sent to the "East" but kept in camps in Germany and Poland, thus the plan did not relate to all Jews.

Still, the plan is horrendeous, it talkes about millions of people like some merchandise to be move from here to there, etc., irrespectively of the unavoidable losses. Hitler said somewhere, that the Jews have to go, and if not all survive the evacuation, that's their problem - very generous.

 

[Vermonter]

Ah, finally somebody who is able to produce the evidence. I was getting impatient. Now Vermonter is going to produce links to material that has not yet been discussed (and debunked) and gives a short summary of the claims.

Now I know that Americans in general and Vermonters in particular have a flawed sense of justice (like the idea that torturing leads to true knowledge). To start with any credible court should be independent. So the idea that the victors are going to organize a little trial is too ludicrous to waste time on.

As a comparison: let's assume that Vermonter and I are crashing into each other with our respective cars. We start to argue, fighting, beating each other up until we both are bleeding and half dead. In the end I manage to gain the upper hand and I am able to tie Vermonter up to a tree. Next I put on a wig and a robe and start to play judge. My sentence is that Vermonter has to pay me millions of euro's in damages (dollars not accepted), claim that he also raped my wife and set fire to my house.

Would anybody take this 'court' serious? Of course not.

So why do you believe Nuremberg for Christ sake?

Actually, no. You came here spouting your nonsense, I'm not going to go hunting for you. If you choose to be ignorarant about the actual facts, that's too bad for you. However, I'm feeling generous. Here's an excellent link about the Final Solution, complete with references and cites. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Solution

Do I detect a little bit of anti-American anger? I for one, don't condone torture. Where would you go for an "independent" court? Outside of the country? Good luck with that. The Nuremburg trials were held in Germany.

Your little fantasy has nothing to do with reality. You believe you are a judge, jury, and executioner? In reality the police would show up and arrest you for assault and battery and impersonating a judge. Taste aside, your analogy is flawed and fails.

The Nuremburg trials consisted of a international military panel of Soviets, British, Americans and French, in addition to German defense council.

Is it because you don't like European "natives"?

 

[Thunder]

Hitler said somewhere, that the Jews have to go, and if not all survive the evacuation, that's their problem - very generous.

the fact that 5 million or more Jews are missing from the globe makes the true meaning of "evacuation" very very clear.

yes, the Jews were evacuated and relocated..........to heaven.

 

[Jungle Jim]

This article came out today:

Auschwitz blueprints given to Israeli PM
http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-world/20090827/EU.Germany.Netanyahu.Auschwitz/

 

[technoextreme]

The Wannsee Conference is not of much use; it has been interpreted and re-interpreted again for the lack of anything definitive. Its relevance is disputed even by some Jewish historians.

Shermer and Grobman explain, that a special dictionary is required for the "correct" interpretation, for the Germans were too shy to talk in cleartext (yes, they were well known of that, right?).

Furthermore, not only that there were many exceptions, but hundreds of thousands of Jews have not been sent to the "East" but kept in camps in Germany and Poland, thus the plan did not relate to all Jews.

Still, the plan is horrendeous, it talkes about millions of people like some merchandise to be move from here to there, etc., irrespectively of the unavoidable losses. Hitler said somewhere, that the Jews have to go, and if not all survive the evacuation, that's their problem - very generous.

Wait a second.... Are you referring to the holocaust deniers butchering of the German language to try and rationalize your idiotic rational that they were only evacuated?

 

[Skeptic]

Nothing that contradicts his pet theory is of "much use" to 9/11 investigator. The thousands of eyewitnesses are all lying, the millions of missing Jews are surely hiding somewhere, the Germans documents don't mean what they say, and the German witnesses were all tortured.

Of course, with this sort of "logic", it is no wonder he also thinks 9/11 was an inside job. But I suggest that he go the whole hog and join together both of his favorite conspiracy theories and admit what we all know is the truth, namely, that the 9/11 attack never happened.

I mean, where is your proof that there ever were twin towers?

Thousands of witnesses? They're all lying.
Tons of photographic evidence? Meh -- all faked.
Architects' plans? Got proof they were ever built?
Bin Laden's admitting he attacked the twin towers? Well, the CIA tortured him into it.

It might take some time for the fake history of the 9/11 attack happening to be disproved, but time is on our side. Eventually, everybody who witnessed the destruction of the twin towers will die out. Then, it will just be documentary evidence that they ever existed -- and we all known how easy those are to fake.

It's still in the future -- give it 80 years or so -- but it's inevitable. The future is ours, of the 9/11 never happened truth people.

 

[ddt]

The Wannsee Conference is not of much use; it has been interpreted and re-interpreted again for the lack of anything definitive. Its relevance is disputed even by some Jewish historians.

Shermer and Grobman explain, that a special dictionary is required for the "correct" interpretation, for the Germans were too shy to talk in cleartext (yes, they were well known of that, right?).

Furthermore, not only that there were many exceptions, but hundreds of thousands of Jews have not been sent to the "East" but kept in camps in Germany and Poland, thus the plan did not relate to all Jews.

Still, the plan is horrendeous, it talkes about millions of people like some merchandise to be move from here to there, etc., irrespectively of the unavoidable losses. Hitler said somewhere, that the Jews have to go, and if not all survive the evacuation, that's their problem - very generous.

For the question, how the Wannseekonferenz to interpret, it's best to let one of its attendants speak.

Dr. Servatius: Witness, a record of this type cannot reproduce the atmosphere of this conference, the basic attitude of all the participants. Could you say something about this?

Accused: Certainly. The atmosphere was characterized by Heydrich's relaxed, satisfied behaviour. He most definitely expected the greatest difficulties at this conference.

Dr. Servatius: Witness, the point is what the other participants in the conference expressed.

Accused: Yes, of course. Not only did everybody willingly indicate agreement, but there was something else, entirely unexpected, when they outdid and outbid each other, as regards the demand for a Final Solution to the Jewish Question. The biggest surprise, as far as I remember, was not only Buehler, but above all Stuckart, who was always cautious and hesitant, but who suddenly behaved there with unaccustomed enthusiasm.

Dr. Servatius: Witness, before this conference, you yourself saw something of the preparations being made in the East for these extermination measures. Is that correct?

Accused: Yes.

Dr. Servatius: Did the conference participants also already know something about this form of the Final Solution?

Accused: I must assume that this was known, since, at the time of the Wannsee Conference, the war against Russia had been going on for six months and, as we have seen from the documents, the Special Operations Units were in action in these areas. And, of course, the central key figures in the Reich Government were aware of these facts.

The accused here is, of course, Eichmann. (link). You may of course read on about his private Pilate moment.

As Eichmann hints to, since the commencement of Barbarossa, the Einsatzgruppen had been active behind the front in Russia to exterminate the there resident Jews. Hitler himself was also fully aware of that; Müller had given explicit instruction to the leaders of the Einsatzgruppen to make graphic reports to be sent to the Führer.

As to the couched language the Nazis used: it is not nice to speak of murder and extermination, especially not for the ones in 3-piece suits. Couched language is of all times; think of expressions as "collateral damage", and it sets up for "plausible deniability", another such couched term.

Lastly, that not all had been killed by the end of the war is no argument that there was no such intent. During the war, the Nazis became acutely aware of labour shortage, and many Jews were kept in labour camps to toil for German industry.

ETA:

Hitler made many comments. There's his famous speech of January 30, 1939, in which he said that "if the Jews succeed to unleash a new World War on Germany, it will mean the annihilation of European Jewry".

And on December 12, 1941 - the day after Nazi Germany declared war on the US - Goebbels noted in his diary:

In respect of the Jewish question, the Führer has decided to make a clean sweep. The world war is here, the annihilation of the Jews must be the necessary result. This question is to be regarded without sentimentalism. We are not here to have sympathy with the Jews, but rather with our German people. If the German people have sacrificed 160,000 dead in the eastern campaign, so the authors of this bloody conflict will have to pay for it with their lives.

(link)