Go Afghans!

Hey now, let's not fall out, I think we've always been quite good friends on this forum.

All I'm doing is stating the facts as I see them. If you could show me that the current strategy is working, I'd accept it. I just don't think it is.
 
Pardalis said:
I don't know if you remember, but our allies in the Northern Alliance are one of the reasons we defeated the Taliban. Unfortunately, many of those are the very same warlords she is complaining about.

So, again, what would she have suggested? Foreign forces are for her out of the question, warlords are out of the question too, so who is left to oust the Taliban?
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What's that you say? "Many"? Does that mean "not all"?
Via wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malalai_Joya#Parliament_statements.2C_attack.2C_and_suspension

"I said there are two kinds of mujahedeen in Afghanistan," Joya told the Associated Press. "One kind fought for independence, which I respect, but the other kind destroyed the country and killed 60,000 people."

Her language is pretty clear. You don't want to address it, fine.
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Her language is clear. She is not a pacifist. She is not a CTer.

And the quote you pulled from the Independent:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...de-ndash-the-people-are-betrayed-1774574.html

Democracy will never come to Afghanistan through the barrel of a gun, or from the cluster bombs dropped by foreign forces. The struggle will be long and difficult, but the values of real democracy, human rights and women's rights will only be won by the Afghan people themselves.
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Democracy doesn't come from a gun, I can agree with that. I might add that, clearly, democracy doesn't come from merely driving out the Taliban. However, it does seem that independence often needs to be won through the gun -- and she seems supportive of the Mujahadeen who fought the Soviets, so she's not a pacifist.
 
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Pardalis said:
I don't know if you remember, but our allies in the Northern Alliance are one of the reasons we defeated the Taliban.
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sigh....one of the reasons is it? The we could possibly have lost to the Taliban? The northern Alliance is one of the reasons we won?

you need to look into why we allied with the Northern alliance, needing them to ensure that the could defeat the taliban was not one of them.
 
FireGarden said:
Her language is clear. She is not a pacifist. She is not a CTer.
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Then explain to me what she meant by this:

the real winner has already been picked by the White House
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and for, the West, to legitimise its future puppet in Afghanistan
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and the escalating war waged by Nato
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That's doesn't sound like conspiracy theory to you?

And what about this:

More than ever, Afghans are faced with powerful internal enemies — fundamentalist warlords and their Taliban brothers-in-creed — and the external enemies occupying the country.
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Since when are we their enemies? We liberated them from the Taliban for christ sake. We're building their roads, schools and supply them with aid and technical knowledge so that they can take care of themselves. We train their military, we risk our lives to help them rebuild.

Such gratitude.

Democracy doesn't come from a gun, I can agree with that.
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Then how? How were the Taliban supposed to be defeated? Please answer this time.
 
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The Fool said:
you need to look into why we allied with the Northern alliance, needing them to ensure that the could defeat the taliban was not one of them.
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Please tell me what was the reason? :rolleyes:

I get the feeling you may want to post your answer here instead.
 
Pardalis said:
Please tell me what was the reason? :rolleyes:

I get the feeling you may want to post your answer here instead.
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good boy.....you can now yell "conspiracy theorist" at people when they won't swallow your views.

anyway, I'd rather leave you believing that we needed the northern alliance to ensure we defeated the taliban....LMAO.

anyway you have made some progress this thread. You have moved on from denial regarding the widespread corruption and vote rigging....you have done that....haven't you?

Democracy rules in Afganistan. Karzai can now sit at the international table as a democratically elected leader. welcome......He is now immune from being called a terrorist.
 
Drop the attitude, just tell me.

BTW, you like that straw pretty thick don't you? Like some herbivore I won't mention.
 
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Pardalis said:
Then explain to me what she meant by this:

That's doesn't sound like conspiracy theory to you?
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No it does not.
It does not take a CTer to expect vote fraud in Afghanistan.
It does not take a CTer to believe that the only reason for the election is to go on pretending there is a democracy -- a democracy which you yourself have admitted falls short of expected standards.
It does not take a CTer to say that Nato is fighting a war which is escalating. The number of dead NATO soldiers speaks for that.

Pardalis said:
And what about this:

Since when are we their enemies?
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According to her, since the west sold out women's rights. Do I have to post that quote a 3rd time?

The Independent said:
As soon as the Taliban retreated, they were replaced – by the warlords who had ruled Afghanistan immediately before. Joya says that, at this point, "I realised women's rights had been sold out completely...
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Pardalis said:
Then how? How were the Taliban supposed to be defeated? Please answer this time.
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I have answered. But you keep equating the issue of bringing democracy with defeating the Taliban. You seem to have the equation in mind:
Defeat Taliban = Bring Democracy

How do you justify that?

I would agree with you that the Taliban were, indeed, defeated. What is happening now is round two. Democracy did not follow the defeat of the Taliban. I'm not surprised. It takes more than guns and bombs to bring democracy.

And you yourself have stated your belief that if the Iranians had defeated the Taliban then they wouldn't have brought about democracy.

Doesn't this cast doubt on the notion that guns and bombs will bring democracy? Not on the notion that they will defeat the Taliban. That's happened once before. (Not a total defeat, I admit).

Having made the distinction as clear as possible, I wait for you to argue how the phrase "democracy doesn't come from the barrel of a gun" is necessarily, and without alternative, an indication of pacifism. Especially when the person saying it has praised some of those who fought against the Soviets. Those people also did not bring democracy to Afghanistan. So we have another example of "defeat the enemy" not being the same thing as "bring democracy".
 
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FireGarden said:
No it does not.
It does not take a CTer to expect vote fraud in Afghanistan.
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And what does that got to do with the White House?

It does not take a CTer to believe that the only reason for the election is to go on pretending there is a democracy
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No, the election is to at least try and exercise it. Nobody is claiming it's a perfect democracy, but at least trying it out is better than not doing it at all. Is she proposing we forgo the elections altogether?

And what about her use of the word "puppet"? Doesn't she imply that some external forces control her government?

It does not take a CTer to say that Nato is fighting a war which is escalating.
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No, you are willingfully misreading what she said. The way she expresses herself she puts all the blame of the escalation solely on NATO, and implying it's deliberate.

Don't you think the Taliban have a little to do with it? Don't you think if it wasn't for them, NATO troops would have left a long time ago?

According to her, since the west sold out women's rights. Do I have to post that quote a 3rd time?
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No, because that's not what she meant.

Doesn't she see that the Coalition is there to help the Afghans? Doesn't she see Americans, Britons, Canadians, Norwegians, Dutch and Australians help rebuild schools, infrastructure, train the military and civilians around her?

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/08/13/building-schools-in-afghanistan-not-as-simple-as-a-b-c/
http://www.cbc.ca/doczone/afghanistan/
http://ukinafghanistan.fco.gov.uk/en/working-with-afghanistan/
http://www.netherlands-embassy.org.uk/about/index.php?i=127
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/670772
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/02/10/f-afghanistan.html
http://gbgm-umc.org/Umcor/loveupdate/oneyearlater.cfm
http://www.norway.org.af/norway/norway.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/...to-help-train-afghan-army-in-the-south-43414/
http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2006-05/2006-05-08-voa3.cfm?moddate=2006-05-08

She doesn't see any of it? Either she's completely oblivious to all that is going on or these thousands of people working to reconstruct her country don't exist?

These countries spending millions for her country are her enemies?

I have answered. But you keep equating the issue of bringing democracy with defeating the Taliban.
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Well it was the first step to get there, and it's ongoing. Without that first step the Taliban would still be there, so it's in direct correlation with helping Afghanistan become a democracy. You can't have one without the other, and to claim otherwise is just illogical.

I would agree with you that the Taliban were, indeed, defeated. What is happening now is round two.
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But Miss Joya doesn't even acknowledge step one. The way she talks, we should never have invaded in the first place.

So again I'm asking you for the third time, what else did she have in mind? How else than with brute force do you defeat the Taliban and keep them at bay?

If NATO forces left today as she asks, what would happen do you think? Would democracy instantly flourish as she seems to think?

Answer, please.

It takes more than guns and bombs to bring democracy.
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Like what?

And you yourself have stated your belief that if the Iranians had defeated the Taliban then they wouldn't have brought about democracy.
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That's because the Iranians wouldn't recognize a democracy if it bludgeoned them in the face with a baseball bat.
Those people also did not bring democracy to Afghanistan.
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That's completely irrelevant, because the Mujahideen didn't have "democracy" in mind at all, in fact the word is completely alien to them. NATO has had the specific goal of democracy from the get-go.
 
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The way she expresses herself she puts all the blame of the escalation solely on NATO, and implying it's deliberate.
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no she doesnt. read it again.
 
Pardalis said:
"the escalating war waged by Nato"

How do you interpret this?

The Taliban don't have anything to do with this escalation you think?
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and what did she say about groups that do just destroy the countrys infrastructure and killed 60 000 people?
 
You didn't answer my question, how impolite. Didn't your mother teach you good manners?

DC said:
and what did she say about groups that do just destroy the countrys infrastructure and killed 60 000 people?
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Are you saying NATO deliberately kills Afghans and destroys their infrastructures? I DEMAND AN ANSWER.

Didn't you read the links I just provided?
Pardalis said:
http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/08/13/building-schools-in-afghanistan-not-as-simple-as-a-b-c/
http://www.cbc.ca/doczone/afghanistan/
http://ukinafghanistan.fco.gov.uk/en/working-with-afghanistan/
http://www.netherlands-embassy.org.uk/about/index.php?i=127
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/670772
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/02/10/f-afghanistan.html
http://gbgm-umc.org/Umcor/loveupdate/oneyearlater.cfm
http://www.norway.org.af/norway/norway.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/...to-help-train-afghan-army-in-the-south-43414/
http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2006-05/2006-05-08-voa3.cfm?moddate=2006-05-08
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NATO is helping Afghans rebuild, they are paying millions and sacrificing their men and women for Afghanistan.
 
Pardalis said:
You didn't answer my question, how impolite. Didn't your mother teach you good manners?



Are you saying NATO deliberately kills Afghans and destroys their infrastructures? I DEMAND AN ANSWER.

Didn't you read the links I just provided?


NATO is helping Afghans rebuild, they are paying millions and sacrificing their men and women for Afghanistan.
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oh dear.
read the article in the independent again.
it is clearly NOT what she said nor is it what i said.
 
When she says :

There are the occupation forces from the sky, dropping cluster bombs and depleted uranium, and on the ground there are the fundamentalist warlords and the Taliban, with their own guns." She wants to help the swelling movement of ordinary Afghans in between, who are opposed to both. "With the withdrawal of one enemy, the occupation forces, it [will be] easier to fight against these internal fundamentalist enemies
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How exactly is this supposed to work? Who will do the fighting against the warlords and the Taliban? With what weapons and how can they expect to win?

She's completely unrealistic.
 
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