Go Afghans!

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/08/20/afghanistan.election/index.html

One has to the emphasize the courage the Afghans have shown today for exercising their democratic right, against the threats and the violence.

Alot of polls were closed and 26 people have been killed, but it looks like the turn out was good.

Although like in everything, there are bound to be a few snags::D

When you think that in our western countries, people can't even manage to get off their butts to go to vote.

It's a start. Let's hope they stick to it.
 
She's using double language, she's against the Taliban and against the invasion?

You really find this so difficult to understand?

What about Americans who were against Bush...
If America had been invaded to get rid of the Bush admin, would all those Americans have to be for the invasion? Of course not. And if the invasion had taken place against their wishes, would they then be hypocrites if they continued their opposition to the Bush admin and other political forces by running for political office? And, at the same time, still thinking that the invasion wasn't the best course of action? Of course not.

The reason you are confused is that you can see no solution to problems other than war/invasion. And, in this case, a war which put into power people who have an extablished reputation and history in Afghanistan -- now of course, to keep American support, they have to dress up in democratic cloth.

Alongside them, of course, (and also with some power) you have people who genuinely have Afghan's interests at heart. People like Malalai Joya, who went back to Afghanistan during the rule of the Taliban (from Pakistan, where her family fled via Iran) to help educate girls. But where is the real power concentrated? In the hands of those who banned Malalai Joya from the Afghan parliament because she dared speak out.

Of course, Malalai Joya is not the only one. (The wiki article mentions she was shielded by some colleagues when she received death threats at the parliament. Shukria Barakzai is named in another context). But she is certainly one of the people in Afghanistan for whom you should have the greatest respect -- far more respect than Karzai.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malalai_Joya

Hundreds of men and women put their lives on the line and die fighting for her freedom, and she's spitting on them.

Get a freaking clue Miss Joya.

Malalai Joya has more of a clue about Afghanistan than many people have about their own backsides. She is marginalised by warlords and drug traffickers. And you want to tell her she is free? Free to do what? Speak her mind in the parliament she was elected to? Err, no, she isn't.

Malalai Joya has had her life on the line in Aghanistan for longer than any American soldier. And she has not tuned her back towards any of the opportunities provided by the ousting of the Taliban. She has been elected to the Afghan Parliament.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/malalai-joya-the-woman-who-will-not-be-silenced-1763127.html

Independent said:
As soon as the Taliban retreated, they were replaced – by the warlords who had ruled Afghanistan immediately before. Joya says that, at this point, "I realised women's rights had been sold out completely... Most people in the West have been led to believe that the intolerance and brutality towards women in Afghanistan began with the Taliban regime. But this is a lie. Many of the worst atrocities were committed by the fundamentalist mujahedin during the civil war between 1992 and 1996. They introduced the laws oppressing women followed by the Taliban – and now they were marching back to power, backed by the United States. They immediately went back to their old habit of using rape to punish their enemies and reward their fighters."

The warlords "have ruled Afghanistan ever since," she adds. While a "showcase parliament has been created for the benefit of the US in Kabul", the real power "is with these fundamentalists who rule everywhere outside Kabul". As an example, she names the former governor of Herat, Ismail Khan*. He set up his own "vice and virtue" squads which terrorised women and smashed up video and music cassettes. He had his own "private militias, private jails". The constitution of Afghanistan is irrelevant in these private fiefdoms.

Joya discovered just what this meant when she started to set up the clinic – and a local warlord announced that it would not be allowed, since she was a woman, and a critic of fundamentalism. She did it anyway, and decided to fight this fundamentalist by running in the election for the Loya jirga ("meeting of the elders") to draw up the new Afghan constitution. There was a great swelling of support for this girl who wanted to build a clinic – and she was elected. "It turned out my mission," she says, "would be to expose the true nature of the jirga from within."

[...] When her turn came, she stood, looked around at the blood-soaked warlords on every side, and began to speak. "Why are we allowing criminals to be present here?

[...] These warlords – who brag about being hard men – could not cope with a slender young woman speaking the truth. They began to shriek and howl, calling her a "prostitute" and "infidel", and throwing bottles at her. One man tried to punch her in the face. Her microphone was cut off and the jirga descended into a riot.

[...] Her speech was broadcast all over the world – and cheered in Afghanistan. She was flooded with support from the people of her country, delighted that somebody had finally spoken out.

[...] But the US and Nato occupiers instructed Joya that she must show "politeness and respect" for the other delegates. When Zalmay Khalilzad, the US Ambassador, said this, she replied: "If these criminals raped your mother or your daughter or your grandmother, or killed seven of your sons, let alone destroyed all the moral and material treasure of your country, what words would you use against such criminals that will be inside the framework of politeness and respect?"

[...] So she ran for parliament.

[...] The fundamentalist warlords who couldn't beat Joya at the ballot box or kill her chanced upon a new way to silence her. The more she spoke, the angrier they got. She called for secularism in Afghanistan, saying: "Religion is a private issue, unrelated to political issues and the government... Real Muslims do not require political leaders to guide them to Islam." She condemned the new law that declared an amnesty for all war crimes committed in Afghanistan over the past 30 years, saying "You criminals are simply giving yourselves a get-out-of-jail free card." So the MPs simply voted to kick her out of parliament.

There's are members of your own parliament asking for her reinstatement:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malalai_Joya

She sounds to me like exactly the kind of person you would normally support -- except for one thing.

Let's put it this way...
Not so long ago, the Iranians were about to go to war with the Taliban:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Iranian_diplomats_assasination_in_Afghanistan

Suppose they had. Suppose they had defeated the Taliban and set up exactly the kind of government which is in Afghanistan now. And suppose that Malalai Joya, as she most certainly would have done, had continued to speak out. ie: Everything the same, except it was the Iranians who took out the Taliban.

What would your attitude to her be then?




*You might want to search for Ismail Khan at HRW:
http://www.hrw.org/en/search/apachesolr_search/Ismail+Khan
 
From that link:
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2003/01/21/falling-back-taliban-ways-women

In the city of Herat in western Afghanistan, the government of the warlord Ismail Khan recently applied new rules rolling back educational opportunities for women and girls. Men may no longer teach women or girls in private classes. Girls and boys are no longer allowed to be in school buildings at the same time.

Leaders in some southern provinces have allowed police forces to threaten women and girls going to school. Pamphlets have been secretly distributed warning families against sending their daughters to school.

Yet because people like Ismail Khan operate under the banner of democracy, this is somehow tolerated.
 
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A few more off-topic and bickering posts moved to AAH. Don't you people read mod-boxes?
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky
 
She's using double language, she's against the Taliban and against the invasion?

She's got to make a choice. Either these cluster bombs helped oust the Taliban, or either they didn't. Well I got news for you Miss Joya, THEY DID.

And her claim that
is plain old conspiracy theory.

Escalating war waged by NATO? Is she saying NATO is deliberately creating this conflict? This is what is sounds to me.

And this takes the cake:

She's completely inconsistent and unrealistic. If NATO forces left Afghanistan (and there is nothing they want more than to eventually leave) the Taliban would inevitably regain power. IS THAT WHAT SHE WANTS?

Our military is what kept the elections going relatively safely. There wouldn't have been elections at all if it wasn't for our brave military Coalition. Hundreds of men and women put their lives on the line and die fighting for her freedom, and she's spitting on them.

Get a freaking clue Miss Joya.

This is pretty much the embodiment of the "You're With Us, or Against Us" Bush logic. You CANNOT be against the Iraq War if you're also against the Taliban, you dirty terrorist-monger.
 
You really find this so difficult to understand?

It's pretty simple really, the invasion ousted the Taliban.

The reason you are confused is that you can see no solution to problems other than war/invasion.

Maybe Miss Joya had an alternative? What could possibly have defeated the Taliban than brute force? Let's hear it.

Malalai Joya has more of a clue about Afghanistan than many people have about their own backsides. She is marginalised by warlords and drug traffickers. And you want to tell her she is free? Free to do what? Speak her mind in the parliament she was elected to? Err, no, she isn't.

You didn't adress anything I said. Her rhetoric is conspirational, she seems to claim there is a NATO conspiracy to create this conflict, and she is indeed spitting on the servicement who are protecting her against the Taliban.

She sounds to me like exactly the kind of person you would normally support

I don't support conspiracy theorist, even the brave ones.

-- except for one thing.

Let's put it this way...
Not so long ago, the Iranians were about to go to war with the Taliban:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Iranian_diplomats_assasination_in_Afghanistan

Suppose they had. Suppose they had defeated the Taliban and set up exactly the kind of government which is in Afghanistan now. And suppose that Malalai Joya, as she most certainly would have done, had continued to speak out. ie: Everything the same, except it was the Iranians who took out the Taliban.

What would your attitude to her be then?

Too much speculation. One thing is for sure, the Iranians wouldn't have tried to implement a democratic government.
 
quote by Malalai Joya

I believe that if the ordinary folk of Afghanistan and the Nato countries were able to vote, and express their wishes, this indefinite military occupation would come to an end and there would be a real chance for peace in Afghanistan. But today's election does nothing for that.
OK, let's try another thought experiment about a hypothetical scenario.

If NATO forces left Afghanistan today as she asks, what would happen then? The way she talks, it's almost as though democracy would instantly flourish and all the problems of corruption and war would go away. The warlords would simply vanish and so would the Taliban.

Is that really what she thinks?

She may be brave (I never doubted that, BTW) but she is naive and misguided.
 
That all may be the case (She seems to be lacking on solutions), but what is the occupation achieving? It seems the Taliban are growing stronger by the day, and gaining ground all over the country. The Soviets learnt (to their peril) that there was no way of winning in Afghanistan, ending up losing close to 15,000 troops in the ten years they spent there.
 
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It's pretty simple really, the invasion ousted the Taliban.

Maybe Miss Joya had an alternative? What could possibly have defeated the Taliban than brute force? Let's hear it.

Hold on. You move the goalposts. Who says force wouldn't be used? You're now claiming she's a pacifist, but she hasn't ruled out the use of force. Foreign force...? Sure. Malalai Joya has addressed that, by saying foreign guns and bombs won't bring democracy to Afghanistan -- the Afghans must win democracy for themselves.

And why does she feel this way? I quoted it before:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/malalai-joya-the-woman-who-will-not-be-silenced-1763127.html

Independent said:
As soon as the Taliban retreated, they were replaced – by the warlords who had ruled Afghanistan immediately before. Joya says that, at this point, "I realised women's rights had been sold out completely... Most people in the West have been led to believe that the intolerance and brutality towards women in Afghanistan began with the Taliban regime. But this is a lie. Many of the worst atrocities were committed by the fundamentalist mujahedin during the civil war between 1992 and 1996. They introduced the laws oppressing women followed by the Taliban – and now they were marching back to power, backed by the United States."

[...] "With the withdrawal of one enemy, the occupation forces, it [will be] easier to fight against these internal fundamentalist enemies."

Especially since by "fundamentalist enemies" she means not only the Taliban but some of Karzai's cabinet.

You didn't adress anything I said. Her rhetoric is conspirational, she seems to claim there is a NATO conspiracy to create this conflict, and she is indeed spitting on the servicement who are protecting her against the Taliban.

She's not in any way a CTer. She thinks America is fighting for its own interests, not for Afghanistan's interests. I don't see that as a CT.

Too much speculation. One thing is for sure, the Iranians wouldn't have tried to implement a democratic government.

You are still under the impression that Afghanistan is already democratic. And you manage that while dissing a woman who was barred from parliament for speaking her mind.
 
Hold on. You move the goalposts. Who says force wouldn't be used? You're now claiming she's a pacifist, but she hasn't ruled out the use of force. Foreign force...? Sure. Malalai Joya has addressed that, by saying foreign guns and bombs won't bring democracy to Afghanistan -- the Afghans must win democracy for themselves.

I don't know if you remember, but our allies in the Northern Alliance are one of the reasons we defeated the Taliban. Unfortunately, many of those are the very same warlords she is complaining about.

So, again, what would she have suggested? Foreign forces are for her out of the question, warlords are out of the question too, so who is left to oust the Taliban?

She's not in any way a CTer. She thinks America is fighting for its own interests, not for Afghanistan's interests. I don't see that as a CT.
Her language is pretty clear. You don't want to address it, fine.

You are still under the impression that Afghanistan is already democratic.
No, but it's slowly getting there.

And you manage that while dissing a woman who was barred from parliament for speaking her mind.
You didn't address my hypothetical either, suit yourself.
 
Hold on. You move the goalposts. Who says force wouldn't be used?

BTW, she did:
Democracy will never come to Afghanistan through the barrel of a gun, or from the cluster bombs dropped by foreign forces.

Maybe she would have preferred if the Taliban had been defeated by knives and hockey sticks?
 
Perhaps so, but that 40% doesn't suggest 'defeat' for the Taliban in my book.
 
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Perhaps so, but that 40% doesn't spell 'defeat' for the Taliban in my book.

Well, since they were 100% in power before the invasion, what would you call it?

I guess you just like being pessimistic, I say the glass is half full, you'll say it's half empty.
 
Well, it's not defeat that's for sure. It's a severe blow for them, but not defeat.

Listen mate, I would love to see the Taliban eradicated from Afghanistan (And anywhere else they crop up). I just am deeply skeptical about how it can be achieved at the moment, considering how much ground the Taliban control 8 years later. Plus, the alarming growth of the rich-poor divide in the country is allowing the Taliban to recruit an increasing number of poor Afghans into their group.

The disappointing turnout in this election may be a result of the fear inflicted by the Taliban, but it may also be indicative of the Afghans losing faith in the democratic system (Or the low turnout may simply mean they are more like us than we thought!).
 
Well they're not going to have faith in the system with that attitude from the west.
 

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