Go Afghans!

[Darth Rotor]

I'm amazed by all of this... these people come out under such harsh & dangerous conditions to vote. Wow

It's news like this that makes me think too many of us in the U.S. take our entire electoral system & government for granted. With all of the petty bickering we engage in through our political discourse, I think we sometimes cannot see the forest through the trees.

This sort of news is really humbling.

Seconded. Something about things taken for granted ...

 

[MattusMaximus]

respect for voting despite the terror.
im sure i wouldnt have the courage.

Yep, I probably would have stayed home hiding in the basement.

 

[MikeSun5]

When you think that in our western countries, people can't even manage to get off their butts to go to vote.

...and those people are risking death to do it. That is impressive.

Your cynicism is tantamount to wishing the terrorist should win.

I disagree with this a LOT. His cynicism doesn't come from nowhere. That election was super-dodgy. You asked for evidence of election fraud, when the link you provided actually gives examples. Quite a few of them, actually.

Oddly enough, you and The Fool ended up agreeing with each other in saying the election was pretty shady, but it was a step in the right direction. JREF members love to argue.

I'm amazed by all of this... these people come out under such harsh & dangerous conditions to vote. Wow

It's news like this that makes me think too many of us in the U.S. take our entire electoral system & government for granted. With all of the petty bickering we engage in through our political discourse, I think we sometimes cannot see the forest through the trees.

This sort of news is really humbling.

Thirded.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

It's not a perfect world and there are bound to be setbacks and injustices, but all in all, the situation is far better than it was prior to invasion, and that Miss Joya has clearly a bias, she clearly decided that the bad guys are the US (of course), and for her to say she's against the "war" is ludicrous. If it wasn't for the war, she wouldn't be there.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't say I'm decidely against the war, I just can't see what progress is being made in Afghanistan in defeating the Taliban. They seem to be gaining more ground with each passing day.

The past history of baby steps is sound history, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the shoe size gets larger.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

This just in:

Afghan polling 'marked by fraud'

Election observers in Afghanistan have said there was widespread voting fraud and intimidation during the presidential election on Thursday.

Stuffed ballot boxes, illiterate voters being told who to vote for and biased officials were cited by Afghanistan's Free and Fair Election Foundation.

 

[FireGarden]

100 voters per minute in the first hour of polling at the polling station at the Haji Janat Gul High School:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/Afghanistan/article6804537.ece

There was a huge rush in the morning, 7-8, so they could get on with tending their sheep and avoid the Taliban.

There were no sign of any election monitors at the site and nor were there any female staff to oversee the women’s ballot boxes, as the electoral commission required.

[...] For an hour The Times waited at the polling site. The polling staff fidgeted. But no one came to vote.

[...] Suddenly a lorry chugged into view. “Look there are voters!” shouted Lawan Geen, scampering towards the approaching vehicle. About thirty men were helped off the lorry, several were elderly and one was almost entirely blind. They trooped into the polling station and prepared to vote.

A burly middle-aged man called Lal Mohammad stepped forward and held out two voting cards. At the sight the election officials went into collective convulsion and shooed one back into his pocket.

After he had voted he explained that he had voted for President Karzai. Asked about the second voting card in his pocket he showed the contents of his several other pockets before finally pulling out the card. “It is my wife’s,” he said. “I will bring her later.”

Many of those who turned out to vote are indeed brave. Some of them are taking part in the fraud -- perhaps under duress.

Yes, democracy in Afghanistan would be great. But let's make sure it's there before celebrating.

 

[FireGarden]

There's a problem right from the very first paragraph:

Since the country is "ruled" by "warlords, occupation forces, Taliban terrorists, drug money and guns" (all of them?), then how can the winner be picked by the White House specifically?

It's either ruled by the warlords, the Taliban or the White House, it can't be all of them at once, these forces work against each other, not in conjunction (unless you're a conspiracy theorist).

Except you're using "it" as a pronoun for two different words: the country and the election.

She goes on to say:

We Afghans know that this election will change nothing and it is only part of a show of democracy put on by, and for, the West, to legitimise its future puppet in Afghanistan.

I think that pretending the election was free and fair would certianly be charade -- a "show" rather than real democracy.

It appears so, she's against the removal of the Taliban, ...

Err, no. She seems to regard the Taliban as an enemy:

More than ever, Afghans are faced with powerful internal enemies – fundamentalist warlords and their Taliban brothers-in-creed – and the external enemies occupying the country.

In fact:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4420832.stm

Ms Joya continued to press her case against the former rulers of Afghanistan - last year she, together with a delegation of 50 tribal elders, persuaded President Hamid Karzai to dismiss a provincial governor who was a former Taleban commander.

[...] Ms Joya has said she is used to intimidation after being threatened "again and again" by the Taleban when she started her work in the country in 1998 after returning from Pakistan and Iran where her family had emigrated during the civil war.

During that time she established an orphanage and health clinic, and was soon a vocal opponent of the Taleban.

She just simply ALSO happens to think that...

President Hamid Karzai has cemented alliances with brutal warlords and fundamentalists in order to maintain his position. Although our constitution forbids war criminals from running for office, the incumbent has named two notorious militia commanders as his vice-presidential running mates – Karim Khalili and Mohammad Qasim Fahim, both of whom stand accused of brutalities against our people.

[...] Even after massive international outcry – and brave protesters taking to the streets of Kabul – Mr Karzai implemented the infamous rape law, targeting Shia women, to gain support of the fundamentalist elements in the election.

[...] Mr Abdullah, as the main candidate of fundamentalist warlords, has run a wide campaign with money he is receiving from the Iranian regime. He and some of the Northern Alliance commanders supporting him have threatened unrest if he loses the vote, raising fears of a return to the rampant violence and killing that marked the civil war years of the 1990s.

[...] The people of Afghanistan are fed up with the rampant corruption of Karzai's "narco-state"

Why is it that you can't see her bravery? Is it because she doesn't limit her criticism to one side?


ETA: Here's another article worth reading about Malalai Joya:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/malalai-joya-the-woman-who-will-not-be-silenced-1763127.html

 

[Tricky]

A number of posts moved to AAH mostly for bickering. Please keep your personal issues with other members out of your posts.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky

 

[Pardalis]

This just in:

Afghan polling 'marked by fraud'

But it continues:

However EU monitors said that despite widespread intimidation and violence, the vote was generally good and fair.

And most importantly:

The chief EU observer said it was still early days in assessing the election.

Please don't throw the towel just yet. They are not going to have perfect democratic and modern elections after a just a few years, it's still better than none at all.

 

[Lonewulf]

Please don't throw the towel just yet. They are not going to have perfect democratic and modern elections after a just a few years, it's still better than none at all.

We might disagree on some points (and I have been a complete ass on them), but on this point we agree.

 

[GreyICE]

A number of posts moved to AAH mostly for bickering. Please keep your personal issues with other members out of your posts.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky

Traitor = okay.

Tool = out of bounds.

Is there a list somewhere of acceptable terms? In all sane universes, calling someone a traitor is worse than calling them a tool.

 

[Pardalis]

Why is it that you can't see her bravery? Is it because she doesn't limit her criticism to one side?

She's using double language, she's against the Taliban and against the invasion?

Democracy will never come to Afghanistan through the barrel of a gun, or from the cluster bombs dropped by foreign forces.

She's got to make a choice. Either these cluster bombs helped oust the Taliban, or either they didn't. Well I got news for you Miss Joya, THEY DID.

And her claim that

the real winner has already been picked by the White House

and for, the West, to legitimise its future puppet in Afghanistan

and the escalating war waged by Nato

is plain old conspiracy theory.

Escalating war waged by NATO? Is she saying NATO is deliberately creating this conflict? This is what is sounds to me.

And this takes the cake:

I believe that if the ordinary folk of Afghanistan and the Nato countries were able to vote, and express their wishes, this indefinite military occupation would come to an end and there would be a real chance for peace in Afghanistan. But today's election does nothing for that.

She's completely inconsistent and unrealistic. If NATO forces left Afghanistan (and there is nothing they want more than to eventually leave) the Taliban would inevitably regain power. IS THAT WHAT SHE WANTS?

Our military is what kept the elections going relatively safely. There wouldn't have been elections at all if it wasn't for our brave military Coalition. Hundreds of men and women put their lives on the line and die fighting for her freedom, and she's spitting on them.

Get a freaking clue Miss Joya.

 

[Skeptic]

I replied to the claim that there has been no change in Afghanistan since the invasion by noting that, at least, women can legally go to school and are not shot dead in soccer fields for baring their arms (or equivalent "crimes").

Apparently, such things are just too simple and unsophisticated for the great democrats on this forum to notice. Those silly women might think they have more freedom because they can study and aren't shot dead, but us sophisticated people know that's not true.

Of course, one can easily imagine what the sophisticated folks -- those who now claim there had been no change to the better since the invasion -- would have been if this "no change at all" went in the opposite direction -- if, before the invasion, there were rigged elections, and after the invasion, executions and denial of education became the norm.

Then, we would never hear the end of it about how the situation had greatly deteriorated due to the US led invasion -- and rightly so.

This doesn't seem like a "sophisticated" view to me. It seems that it's really "whatever the USA does is bad", or more precisely, "If the USA does something bad, blame the USA, if the USA does something good, claim it isn't really good, if you can't even do that, ignore it and make a lame joke about how stupid Bush is."

Again, for all I know the elections are rigged, and democracy might fail. But not only the "sophisticates" here are not worried about democratization failing, they positively desire it, all so that they will feel that they were vindicated in their "Bush is an idiot to think it will ever work" stance.

 

[Tricky]

Traitor = okay.

Tool = out of bounds.

Is there a list somewhere of acceptable terms? In all sane universes, calling someone a traitor is worse than calling them a tool.

Since no-one has used the word "traitor" on this thread (until now) I am not sure to what you are referring. But indeed, context is important and it depends on whether or not it directly aimed at a member. But when a bout of bickering arises, I tend to clean out even piddly stuff, since often, no infractions are given and even the warnings are only general.

But if you have a problem with the moderation, Forum Management is the place to discuss it.

 

[Pardalis]

I advise against continuously arguing with the invisible voices in your head Skeptic. It will take me a while to wade through all that straw.

The name you give yourself is quite frankly laughable.

I agree with Skeptic. It probably doesn't apply to you, but I see alot of people wanting this to fail for the reasons he mentioned.

It's politically motivated defeatism. It's not about the Afghans, but about Bush and America being the bad guys again.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

Yet he should attack the positions here, not the positions that various members of society possess. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is tired of his eccentric, and altogether false characterisations of those who happen to disagree with him.

It's strawman, plain and simple. That's why his title is laughable.

Keeping the sheer degree of venom directed at those who respectively differ with him on certain topics might be nice. It will help his blood pressure too. Can't be healthy.

 

[DC]

I guess coming from a woman (allegedly) I'll take that as a compliment.



It's Hammertime.

using Earworms is unfair

 

[Lonewulf]

Apparently, such things are just too simple and unsophisticated for the great democrats on this forum to notice.

If you're going to use gross generalizations, please name the "great democrats" in particular.

I've only really seen one that fits with your diatribe.

EDIT: Maybe three.

 

[Lonewulf]

I guess coming from a woman (allegedly) I'll take that as a compliment.

What the hell does being a woman have to do with anything?

 

[Lonewulf]

I advise against continuously arguing with the invisible voices in your head Skeptic. It will take me a while to wade through all that straw.

The name you give yourself is quite frankly laughable.

It's his standard tactic. Throw in a wide label of contempt for "the democrats" or "the progressives" or anything else synonymous with "doesn't-agree-with-me" in his head, and then pile up generalizations without ever having to define who in particular you're talking about. He then displays his mind reading talent and tells you what they think and feel.

It's really nothing new.