Yet more NLP BS

[Senex]

Hey - that's my website [

I apologize. I assumed a link to a site I didn't check out probably didn't belong to someone who took credit for it hours later. I mocked you for the wrong reasons. Sorry.

I'd say that's only somewhat accurate. You've got to understand that DB is a SHOWMAN. He relies on being in control, and every person he "uses NLP on" knows who he is (and therefore they know he's in control).

This is true. If microdot wants to put his faith into "NLP" effect's DB has performed I suspect we can get around the "don't expose" rule to save one young man's mind from NLP.

Ohhhh... no, the punch line was the icon. After the trauma of Mystery and his slobbery tongue of doom, she decided to become a lesbian nun. I do have fun with Photoshop.

Tell me that's not true!

I'm currently reading Tricks Of The Mind by Derren Brown.

It's more woo than you think.

I can't speak for Maia, and I hope she corrects me if I'm wrong, but the hostility is the fact that most women are not pawns that one can use tricks to simply get into bed. Most women who are worth it don't play the game.

'Sides, we guys are notorious for making, and please excuse the reference, "fish stories" out of our "conquests".

Oh, what a suck up. That's NLP 101.

 

[microdot]

Aaargh! By the time I've finished typing my responses and clicked the Submit Reply button my session seems to have timed out and I lose everything. Is there a mechanism to stop that happening?

Many thanks JFrankA for your candid responses

If I may be allowed I would just like to say that I did not arrive at this forum with the intent of offending anybody or of supporting those persons who would seek to manipulate others for their own financial gain by selling them 'magic beans'.

I arrived here after reviewing the visitor logs for my website and thought it would be interesting to find out more about the opinions expressed here and, hopefully, engage in some lively debate.

So far I'm enjoying the experience and hope to continue doing so

If I may continue:-

Maybe, but then, you wanted it to work. Here's part of the problem. You believe and want it work so you associate it. Gotta do a real, double blind test with you NOT participating, just observing and see what really goes on.

This gave me pause for thought and also raised a couple of questions for me which I'll share with you if I may.

On the occasions where I noticed the similarity in posture with people I felt in rapport with, I'm not aware that I was actively looking for it. It was something that I noticed mid-conversation and that I found pleasantly surprising.

True, I then consciously adjusted my posture and looked for the other person to follow and, more often than not, saw what I was looking for.

In the absence of laboratory conditions though the evidence of my senses is all I have to go on.

I agree that double blind testing is a useful way to elimate, as far as possible, the effects of subjective experience on the measured results of experiments but I can't work out how my acting as just an observer would achieve this.

Surely, if your assertion is correct, even as a 'believer/observer' I would still be looking for it to work and thus would bias the results?

This whole NLP and hypnosis things is simply this, in order of importance:

1. Desire - from the person receiving the NLP/hypnosis
2. Confidence - from the person doing the NLP/hypnosis
3. Confusion - from the person doing the NLP/hypnosis
4. Belief - from the person receiving the NLP/hypnosis

Whilst I think you have some valid points here I think NLP is a much broader subject than you might appreciate. I realise that this thread relates to a particular use of NLP but IMHO there's rather more to it than the idea of 'speed seduction'.

I apologize. I assumed a link to a site I didn't check out probably didn't belong to someone who took credit for it hours later. I mocked you for the wrong reasons. Sorry.

Thankyou Senex, I respectfully accept your apology even though it seems to imply that while you feel you mocked me for the wrong reasons, I am still meritous of your mockery?

This is true. If microdot wants to put his faith into "NLP" effect's DB has performed I suspect we can get around the "don't expose" rule to save one young man's mind from NLP.

Sorry - dont understand Could I ask you to clarify?

Thanks again to everyone for allowing me to participate

 

[Ashles]

I'm currently reading Tricks Of The Mind by Derren Brown.

It's more woo than you think.

Can you qualify that statement? Why is it 'more woo' than Eddie thinks?

 

[Lothario]

If I may be allowed I would just like to say that I did not arrive at this forum with the intent of offending anybody or of supporting those persons who would seek to manipulate others for their own financial gain by selling them 'magic beans'.

Whilst I think you have some valid points here I think NLP is a much broader subject than you might appreciate. I realise that this thread relates to a particular use of NLP but IMHO there's rather more to it than the idea of 'speed seduction'.

The problem is i don't think there is anything more to it than that. NLP is just a tool for those who prey on other people's insecurities (although i understand that you don't support that). Use NLP and you'll solve all your problems. Buy this book and you'll seduce women. Take this course and you'll be a better salesman.

Everytime it was put to the test under a controlled environment, it failed. Matching PRS, mirroring, persuasion, eye cues, everything. Normally, you would expect the practicioners to come up with hard data of their own to support the theory. What did they do? They came up with excuses like "we don't deal with science, we just do what works" or "it takes a lot of training to understand the subtleties of NLP".

Also, if NLP is science, why is it that nobody fails in these courses? As long as you attend the classes, you become a NLP practicioner or master trainer. Shouldn't a student be required to prove that he learned NLP and is qualified to go use it and teach it to others? Like DB said, i think NLP resembles a pyramid scheme with Bandler sitting happily at the top.

 

[microdot]

The problem is i don't think there is anything more to it than that. NLP is just a tool for those who prey on other people's insecurities (although i understand that you don't support that). Use NLP and you'll solve all your problems. Buy this book and you'll seduce women. Take this course and you'll be a better salesman.

What problem, for whom?

Sorry to say that not only do I not support your argument, I largely disagree with it too.

While NLP / NLP like techniques probably are used in the way you describe, that's not the only use they can be put to and thus I think it's inaccurate to say that they are 'for' that one particular purpose.

However, as I like to use whatever information I can get my hands on to allow me to take a balanced view I would like to find out more about the tests you refer to if you could point me in the direction of any suitable information, ideally online, I'd be most grateful.

Also can I ask how you know that nobody fails the courses?

Sorry to be a 'nit-picker' but given that the thrust of your argument seems to be that anyone connected with NLP makes sweeping statements based on nothing other than anecdotal evidence I feel compelled to question the basis of your assertions a little more deeply.

 

[Senex]

Aaargh! By the time I've finished typing my responses and clicked the Submit Reply button my session seems to have timed out and I lose everything. Is there a mechanism to stop that happening?

No, that's what is considered by the JREF as hazing of the newbie. Myself, I'm old school with my hazing.

Thankyou Senex, I respectfully accept your apology even though it seems to imply that while you feel you mocked me for the wrong reasons, I am still meritous of your mockery?


Sorry - dont understand Could I ask you to clarify?

Thanks again to everyone for allowing me to participate

hehehe... no need to thank anyone for being allowed to participate -- the darn rules insure it. Look at it like this, you're a newbie posting pro woo NLP on an anti-NLP thread -- you should have a thick skin.

Many times NLP advocates have a favorite video they invoke to show the powers of NLP. I know you can't post links yet but you can post how others can link it it for you ( (I recommend some swish technique).

Ashles says:Can you qualify that statement? Why is it 'more woo' than Eddie thinks?

Maybe I was hoping Eddie would ask me himself

Anyway, Brown has rightly distanced himself from NLP since writing that book.


Does anyone believe a video of Derren Brown they can link to shows NLP at work? Please provide the link and I am certain as a would be - could have been, someone with a sophisticated mentalism library can explain a more mundane answer. I have to work around the no exposing rules but I have in the past.

 

[Lothario]

What problem, for whom?

For the people spending money learning NLP or paying for NLP-based therapy, when there's no proof of it's efficacy other than anecdotes.

However, as I like to use whatever information I can get my hands on to allow me to take a balanced view I would like to find out more about the tests you refer to if you could point me in the direction of any suitable information, ideally online, I'd be most grateful.

I posted this knol a while ago. I think it's quite accurate:

http://knol.google.com/k/joe-greenfield/neurolinguistic-programming/2j6nlcky7q5vo/2#http://knol.google.com/k/joe-greenfield/neurolinguistic-programming/2j6nlcky7q5vo/2

I even found one of the studies, conducted by Druckman and Swets for the National Research Council, online: http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=1025&page=R1

They came to the conclusion that there was no evidence of NLP's efficacy.

Michael Heap's review is also available online: http://www.mheap.com/nlp.html

Also can I ask how you know that nobody fails the courses?

DB mentions it in Tricks of the Mind. Also, you might want to take a look here:

http://www.ppimk.com/NLP-certification.html

"Each level of certification has specified attendance requirements. However in addition to be fully engaged in the experience, courage, openness and the determination to work through the issues that arise are the required personal qualities for those wishing to gain NLP accreditation."
Attending the classes and showing "experience, courage, openness and determination to work through the issues that arise" alone won't get you a psychology degree. Apparently, it will get you NLP accreditation.

Sorry to be a 'nit-picker' but given that the thrust of your argument seems to be that anyone connected with NLP makes sweeping statements based on nothing other than anecdotal evidence I feel compelled to question the basis of your assertions a little more deeply.

No problem. Perhaps I have a wrong image of NLP because my first contact with it was through a group of friends that got into the whole "pick-up artist" and "speed seduction" thing. But the truth is all I see are dubious applications of NLP and anecdotes instead of evidence.

 

[Ashles]

Can you qualify that statement? Why is it 'more woo' than Eddie thinks?

Maybe I was hoping Eddie would ask me himself

So... no then.

 

[Senex]

So... no then.

No... so then share what you learned about NLP from Derren Brown's book.

 

[Ashles]

No... so then share what you learned about NLP from Derren Brown's book.

So you agree that you can't back up your statement that the book 'Tricks of the Mind' is 'more woo' then Eddie Dane thinks it is? Fair enough.
I'm not sure how that leads on to a question about what I leaned from NLP from Derren Brown's book. But anyway...

What I 'learned' from the book agreed with what I had 'learned' from having a degree in Experimental Psychology - that it was pretty much bollocks.

And the few bits he agreed with (such as body posture and memory interpretation) are not the sole purview and invention of NLP.

I ge the impression you think Derren Brown was somehow promoting NLP in that book.
Have you actually read the book?

 

[Ashles]

Anyway, Brown has rightly distanced himself from NLP since writing that book.

Does anyone believe a video of Derren Brown they can link to shows NLP at work? Please provide the link and I am certain as a would be - could have been, someone with a sophisticated mentalism library can explain a more mundane answer. I have to work around the no exposing rules but I have in the past.

From this is really seems to me like you think Derren Brown is promoting NLP (or at least was in his book).
He in fact treats it very skeptically.

And also let me quote you some text from the book (which you will be familiar with, having, I'm sure, actually read it)

I now have a lot of NLPers analysing my TV work in their own terms, as well as people who say that I myself unfairly claim to be using NLP whenever I perform (the truth is I have never mentioned it).

 

[JFrankA]

No... so then share what you learned about NLP from Derren Brown's book.

I said it before, Senex, this isn't a book about learning NLP or hypnosis or anything like that. This is more of a "Derren Brown Magic Instruction 101" type of book.

Also, even though in his performances he makes it look like NLP and hypnosis, but that's a performance. In a perfromance, anything goes.

For example, I do a trick in which I say I use a new technique called "Numeric-Linguistic Communication" (Don't "Google" it. It doesn't exist. I made it up.) to predict a seven digit number that a spectator will pick based upon a bunch of personal question I ask that spectator beforehand and observe her reactions.

I sell "Numeric-Linguistic Communication" for all it's worth during my performance. But that's a performance. It's my job to fool people. That's Derren's job in his shows. That's anyone's job who is doing this for entertainment purposes.

The line is crossed when the "stage lights are off", so to speak. People who come to me after I'm done and ask for more information on "Numeric-Linguistic Communication" I tell them straight out that it doesn't exist and it was part of the trick.

Derren does that as well. He's written a few books and all of them are magic instruction books, not woo books. Brown has distanced himself from NLP long before "Tricks of the Mind". Maybe not onstage, but that's a stage. He is a magician.

Let me put it this way: Derren has never wrote a book, or has a website or offer lessons in NLP or any other thing that says it will "make you sell better" or "meet women" or anything like that. All his books and videos are stage magic instructions.

 

[MikeSun5]

The question was - How do you know that people will suffer substantially lower IQ from reading too much information on that link?

The response included - It happened to me.

Now, I must confess to being somewhat 'nit-picky' here, but isn't that a prime example of point 3?

Doncha think?

That response was me 1.) realizing I got busted by the creator of a website I dissed, and 2.) trying to get out of it still looking good.

As far as you being nit-picky... Hell, you're in the right forum for that.

At any rate... I mentioned earlier that NLP relies heavily on anecdotal evidence. Here's some more nit-picking:

In the absence of laboratory conditions though the evidence of my senses is all I have to go on.

Unfortunately this is the bane of NLP. Since it performs so badly under scrutiny, anecdotal evidence is the only "proof" that NLP works.

I agree that double blind testing is a useful way to elimate, as far as possible, the effects of subjective experience on the measured results of experiments but I can't work out how my acting as just an observer would achieve this.

You acting as an observer would give you solid evidence that is not anecdotal.

Surely, if your assertion is correct, even as a 'believer/observer' I would still be looking for it to work and thus would bias the results?

As a believer, your preconceptions wouldn't change the results, but they would probably make you reject them as evidence if the results weren't what you wanted. Unfortunately this is another common problem among NLP supporters: rejection of contrary evidence.

Similar to hypnosis, acupuncture, and homeopathic medicine, the patient of NLP must be aware of the practitioner's intentions for it to work. If you don't know it's being used, it won't "work."

Microdot - you mentioned how you felt rapport with someone that you noticed later was mirroring your posture. Perhaps you felt rapport simply because they were friendly? Maybe they had a pleasant face? Mimicking posture and body language can be subconscious. People copy others' body postures and nervous ticks in conversations all the time (hands on hips, arms folded, wiping eyes, etc). It's not always a person consciously trying to use NLP on someone, no matter how much the believer believes.

I then consciously adjusted my posture and looked for the other person to follow and, more often than not, saw what I was looking for.

More often than not, you saw what you were looking for.
That's exactly the point.

 

[Senex]

So you agree that you can't back up your statement that the book 'Tricks of the Mind' is 'more woo' then Eddie Dane thinks it is? Fair enough.

Oh, so you're using the hiding behind Eddie Dane defense. I could point out flaws in the book -- instead I will just point out how your attack on me is similar to OJ's defense.

JFrankA: I said it before, Senex, this isn't a book about learning NLP or hypnosis or anything like that. This is more of a "Derren Brown Magic Instruction 101" type of book

Yes, an instruction book Ashles has clearly run with. I may miss my next train stop with Ashles at large.

 

[Eddie Dane]

Senex,

Derren Brown thinks NLP is BS. He was taken in by it when he was younger, took a course and was sorely disappointed. He specifically mentions the absence of any kind of exam at the end of the course and all participants send on their merry way with a NLP certificate.

He does go into some techniques used within NLP that have some merit.
But look at the list of useful techniques:
* Changing your body posture to match the state you want to be in (don't slouch when you want to feel assertive and empowered)
* Taking control of (traumatic?) memories by playing movie director and "replaying" them in your head. Turn the sound down, drain the colour from it etc. Styling choices to make it less intense.
* Taking control of empowering memories by playing director and turning up the sound, intensifying the colours, putting cool music under it.
* The Swish pattern has merit according to Brown.

These are all straightforward visualisation techniques or a simple way to get you psyched for a meeting.
You could come up with your own techniques and they would probably work.

For example: My dad came into a position of considerable responsibility at the tender age of 25. Negotiations scared him and he came up with the method of "staring himself down" in the mirror.
Meaning that if he was facing a tough negotiation, he would stand in front of the mirror and tell himself 'you are not going to give in to those bastards' etc.
Now, does that make him some kind of NLP master? These are simple methods of self suggestion that people come up with all by themselves. NLP simply made them into a "system", exaggerates the effect and charges money for it.

BTW: my father is a very good negotiator, but that hinges on a LOT more than talking to the mirror. (product knowledge, market knowledge, social intelligence, charm, verbal ability etc.)

Maybe DB shouldn't have included the techniques in the same section of the book as NLP, as they are so natural and straightforward that they have probably been used since humans grew a neo cortex.

ETA: Derren Brown also mentions the very negative effects that the NLP cult can have on relationships.
He relates an anecdote about a friend who's teenage daughter would like to have a normal open talk with her dad about some issues.
The friend kept deflecting all criticism from his daughter by using NLP manipulation techniques on her. Needless to say, these didn't work at all. When the girl got frustrated and angry, the friend asked her: 'So, how do you know that you're angry at me?'.
The girl walked out of the room in frustration at yet more NLP crap being thrown at her.

So, NLP cannot just keep you from getting laid. It can also screw up your family life.

 

[Eddie Dane]

Oh yes,

For some quality entertainment, look up some Derren Brown stuff on Youtube in which he pretends to use NLP.

Then read the comments, where the NLP faithful try to pick apart which techniques Derren uses in the clip.

It's a hoot.

 

[Ashles]

Oh, so you're using the hiding behind Eddie Dane defense.

No, I'm usi the old "Please back up the specific claim you just made" 'defense' (defense of what?)

But okay, let's ignore Eddie altogether. You state:

I could point out flaws in the book

Okay, please do so. That is exactly what I was asking

-- instead I will just point out how your attack on me is similar to OJ's defense.

Actually your defense is more applicable in that you want to avoid backing up your statement tht the book is 'more woo than you think' so you are attempting to distract the conversation away from that.
So, can you explain that statement or not?
Or will this become another one of those unconvincing "Oh I know how Derren does it all but I'm not allowed to say" discussions?

Yes, an instruction book Ashles has clearly run with. I may miss my next train stop with Ashles at large.

This doesn't really make any sense. In what way have I 'run with it'? That it thinks NLP is bollocks and so do I?
That it contains genuinely effective memory tricks and methods?
Please try to explain what you are saying more clearly, if possible without recourse to unclear analogies that do not clarify whatever point you are trying to convey.{

 

[microdot]

Unfortunately this is the bane of NLP. Since it performs so badly under scrutiny, anecdotal evidence is the only "proof" that NLP works.

After a cursory glance, some of the information found on some of the links kindly provided by Lothario would appear to back that up. I'm going to spend more time studying them more thoroughly so may not post here for a little while - which doesn't mean that I've gone away

I then consciously adjusted my posture and looked for the other person to follow and, more often than not, saw what I was looking for.

More often than not, you saw what you were looking for.
That's exactly the point.

Yes, I consciously looked for something and yes, on a number of occasions, not every single time but on a number of occasions I saw it.

In highlighting the point that I saw what I was looking for, are you suggesting that I imagined it?

Can a person observe / measure something without looking for it?

While you're busy 'not looking' for something, how would you know it didn't happen anyway?

Again I am nit-picking and partly that's because I'm not a scientist and can't see a way past this particular argument.

Maybe someone can steer me in the right direction (without looking for it tough )

 

[Senex]

Oh yes,

For some quality entertainment, look up some Derren Brown stuff on Youtube in which he pretends to use NLP.

Then read the comments, where the NLP faithful try to pick apart which techniques Derren uses in the clip.

It's a hoot.

I did. One time on Youtube there was a dozen pages of conjecture on an affect that was a simple envelope switch. When I pointed out it wasn't woo but a slight -- I was shouted down (That thread has since been taken down)

No, I'm usi the old "Please back up the specific claim you just made" 'defense' (defense of what?)

7500+ posts and you still don't get it.

Did you notice Maia changed her avatar? It's not about me and if I read some stupid book. (and you call yourself a skeptic )

 

[Ashles]

7500+ posts and you still don't get it.

So you can't back up your comment. That's fine. Just wanted to be clear on that.

Did you notice Maia changed her avatar? It's not about me and if I read some stupid book.

So you didn't actually even read the book then? That's fine. Just wanted to be clear on that.

(and you call yourself a skeptic )

Yup.
Look at how your statements crumbled under the focus of only a tiny application of skepticism.