Yet more NLP BS

[MikeSun5]

Disclaimer: I'm not a shrink, so you won't get the answers you're looking for from me.

The big questions, IMO, are 1) Is there any real psychology behind it

I think 90% of what they talk about is pure filler. Just nonsense to take up pages so they can charge a lot. Some of the techniques may have some validity, but I'd compare it to Derren Brown's way of hypnotizing and suggesting. Since that stuff isn't effective on everyone, it's best for DB to start with a whole bunch of people and narrow down his search until he finds someone cooperative. In Mystery and Ross' case, substitute the word "cooperative" for "intoxicated with low self esteem."
Most of what they say is shady, but a few of the things almost seem like they'd work. An example is what they call "time distortion." That's when you meet someone - say at a bar - and you go across the street to grab a bite, then go for a walk to the beach to a different bar/club, etc. Supposedly this will leave the person with a bunch of different memory scenes of you to choose from, thereby making them think they spent more time with you than they actually did. That almost sounds like psychology.

2) Can they really increase your odds or is it just a matter of how many women you approach?

I'd go with the latter. Try the PUA techniques on 10 women as opposed to 50 women, and I'd imagine the percentage would be higher on the 50.

Since everyone is different, no one set of "instructions" can be a skeleton key for all girls. I'd like to see Ross Jeffries, Mystery, Sinn, and anyone else who claims to have their own method go to like the Pussycat Dolls tryouts or something and go toe-to-toe on picking up women. If what they say is true, they should all be able to pick up the same girls with their various tactics. What I think would actually happen is that they'd have a super low success rate, but all with different girls.

 

[Lothario]

Anyway, I'm doing storyboards on Sunday afternoon for that NLP parody YouTube video.

Remember to post the link once you're done!

 

[Senex]

Now, you have to understand that an expert in this area I am...However, I do a lot of research in other and highly... ...related areas. So I took a brief look to see what I could come up with. All I can say is that Psychinfo, Pubmed, and Pubmed Central were singularly unhelpful. Scholarly studies don't tend to be formulated in such a way as to ask questions like "If you show up at a club dressed like a reject from a puppet show of Pirates of the Caribbean with two skanks already on your arm, will other women find you more attractive?" It's more likely to be something along the lines of:

D.G Biron, L Marché, F Ponton, H.D Loxdale, N Galéotti, L Renault, C Joly, and F Thomas. (2005). Behavioural manipulation in a grasshopper harbouring hairworm: a proteomics approach. Processes in Biological Sciences,272(1577), 2117–2126.

This (slightly - for time) edited version of your text puts your research in doubt.

Maia:
In relation to human beings, you might get studies theorizing about the reasons why bystanders tend to be friendly to recipients of aggression, or how social conflict models can inform us about models of psychopathology, or how psychopathology in great apes might relate to human mental disorders. So I didn't have any luck finding that study, although I don't have any doubt that somebody did do it somewhere. I'd be interested for sure in seeing it if you can remember where it was, Lothario. (Would you like some salsa?)

Hey, I'm the salsa guy

Maia:
But again, as others have pointed out too, it depends on who you're trying to attract. I don't personally know anyone (of the female gender, I mean) who would be more rather than less interested in some guy who showed up with two women already hanging off of him, not to mention the pirate ripoff/weird hat/scuba mask/pimp cane thing. Especially if it involved an event held at the library.

You don't frequent my library evidently.

I've heard that too, but I'd like to actually see the study of it. From anedotal experience, if you bring a woman to a strip club with female strippers, the strippers will hang around longer...

But as to making a man more attractive because he has a "wing-girl" hanging on him, I'd really like to see a serious study done on that.

Yes, yes, the partnered taken JFrankA always wants to know what he missed.

Frustratingly, I've become more popular with the ladies since I got married.

yes, since you were married geriatric women started liking B Movie sci-fi fans.

Some people, both male and female, are undoubtedly more interested in what they can't have when it comes to dating partners, but the question is the relationship this desire has to the psychological profile of the person in question. I can tell y'all right now, as a psychiatric social worker who's worked with clients who have borderline personality disorder, that when it comes to a very extreme form of the "wanting the romantic partner you can't have" syndrome, it's a real red flag for BPD. Guys... since that seems to be the gender balance on this particular thread... let me give you a head's up... you do not want to end up in a relationship with a woman who has BPD or any of its milder forms, trust me. It can seem flattering at first, but by the time you've called the cops for the thirty-eighth time in a row because she's sitting outside your house every single night at three in the morning...BPD really is an illness and I don't want to make light of it at ALL, but when researchers don't do psychological screening on their subjects, they don't really even know what it is they're studying (and it's actually kind of a pet peeve of mine.)...

Yadda, yadda, yadda...

See how you're getting all this free advice? I could be charging $500.00 for this! (No, I couldn't. I couldn't live with myself, and I'd have to wear some bizarre outfit and have a web page... maybe an antique diving helmet...

hehehe... You're way behind the times. Nautical helmets are out and mermaid costumes are in

You clearly need a disciplinarian mentor before you offer your ersearch on the internet

 

[remirol]

Yep, that was creepy.

OK, I doubt our local NLP apologist is going to show up and give us a script. Ta, y'all.

 

[microdot]

You have to be sold on it in NLP. You've got to say it the way you want it.

***Disclaimer: Reading too much information on the link provided will lower your IQ substantially. NLP is crap/garbage/nonsense dressed up as science. Please do not let the expensive vocabulary words fool you.***

Hey - that's my website

If it's not too much trouble, I'd like to ask a few questions.

How do you know that people will suffer substantially lower IQ from reading too much information on that link?

How much is too much?

How substantial will the IQ lowering be?

What are 'expensive vocalbulary words'?

Thanks

 

[Eddie Dane]

yes, since you were married geriatric women started liking B Movie sci-fi fans.

Disturbing isn't it?
Do you think it's something they put in the water?

 

[Senex]

Disturbing isn't it?
Do you think it's something they put in the water?

No, it's the cadence of Oprah's interviews with fantasy writers. They have gotten to her. She's putting subliminal NLP messages over the airwaves. She clearly has been re-animated.

 

[Moochie]

I think it's safe to rule out looks in Jeffries' case

I looked at that picture and immediately found tuna-fish sandwiches in my armpits.


M.

 

[Lothario]

Hey - that's my website

If it's not too much trouble, I'd like to ask a few questions.

How do you know that people will suffer substantially lower IQ from reading too much information on that link?

How much is too much?

How substantial will the IQ lowering be?

What are 'expensive vocalbulary words'?

Thanks

Since IKE has gone AWOL, you might want to take his place and explain how and why NLP works.

 

[microdot]

Who knows how and why it works?

All I was really looking for was answers to a few questions

 

[Senex]

Who knows how and why it works?

All I was really looking for was answers to a few questions

microdot, trust me, all the answers you seek can be found in the Conspiracy theories thread.

I think it's Maia's turn to speak.

 

[microdot]

There seem to be a number of threads in the Conspiracy Theories forum - were you referring to a particular thread?

 

[Senex]

There seem to be a number of threads in the Conspiracy Theories forum - were you referring to a particular thread?

Sometimes life's answers are fluid. I think this week you can find life's answer's in the JFK autopsy thread.

 

[Maia]

Hey - that's my website

If it's not too much trouble, I'd like to ask a few questions.

How do you know that people will suffer substantially lower IQ from reading too much information on that link?

How much is too much?

How substantial will the IQ lowering be?

What are 'expensive vocalbulary words'?

Thanks

Question #1:

Because morbid curiosity drove me to click on that link, and I actually watched IQ points escape out the window as I was compelled to read on by the sheer appalling train wreckiness of it all. That's how.


Question #2:

Anything.


Question #3:
Enough so that some IQ restructuring was required. (Could I have those lost points back....?)

Question #4:

What are 'expensive vocalbulary words'?

Well,I really couldn't tell you what "vocalbulary" words are, which probably has a great deal to do with the fact that "vocalbulary" is not a recognized adjective in the English language.

As for "how and why it works," (sic) it really might be better not to even start going there. I've already used up my snarkiness quotient for the day. (Do we really need to bring up Mystery's slobbering tongue of doom again?)

 

[MikeSun5]

Hey - that's my website

If that's true, then this thread is going to get GOOOOD.

How do you know that people will suffer substantially lower IQ from reading too much information on that link?

Since NLP relies heavily on anecdotal evidence, I can use anecdotal evidence to answer your question. It happened to me. The longer I read, the further from actual science and psychology I drifted. I believe that accepting the claims of NLP as fact will - in essence - lower your intelligence.

How much is too much?

Any more than the first page or two.

How substantial will the IQ lowering be?

Depends on the amount of information read.

What are 'expensive vocalbulary words'?

An example I can think of right off the bat without even looking is "submodalities." Sounds like a science word, but it isn't. It's a nonsense word that sounds like something a shrink would say.
NLP practitioners need words like that and misuse other words like "presuppositions" in order to create a false sense of scientific validity.

I think a lot of NLP "techniques," like the pickup artist "techniques" happen like this:
1. the practitioner notices something that happens during a conversation
2. the practitioner notices the same thing happen in a different conversation
3. the practitioner claims this happens in all conversations
4. the practitioner conducts a few studies
5. the practitioner throws out all results that don't support the original claim
6. the practitioner presents anecdotal and/or biased evidence to support the claim

 

[Lothario]

Hey - that's my website

Can we get Ross Jeffries to post on this thread? That would be awesome.

 

[Eddie Dane]

I'm currently reading Tricks Of The Mind by Derren Brown.

The book was recommended to me by several fellow JREFers and I'd like to thank them for that. it is excellent.

Brown devotes a whole section to hypnosis and suggestion and also does a whole chapter on NLP. I'll sum up his conclusions:

NLP is pseudo-scientific claptrap with some techniques that have merit.
These techniques are not unique to NLP (can anyone back this up?)
The techniques that Brown thinks useful are:

• Changing your body posture to match the state you want to be in (don't slouch when you want to feel assertive and empowered)
• Taking control of (traumatic?) memories by playing movie director and "replaying" them in your head. Turn the sound down, drain the colour from it etc. Styling choices to make it less intense.
• Taking control of empowering memories by playing director and turning up the sound, intensifying the colours, putting cool music under it.
• The Swish pattern has merit according to Brown.

Note that these are considered USEFUL, without exaggerating the claims. it's like with the exercise equipment they sell on TV. Yes, an Ab-Shaper will help you do sit-ups. No, it doesn't turn you into an eighteen-year old beefcake fitness model in five minutes a day.

Brown thinks the following techniques absolute crap:

• Mirroring someone's posture to create rapport (they'll think you're a freak)*
• Classifying people as Visual, Auditive etc (We are all all these things)
• Reading eye movements (of no practical use, has been scientifically tested)
• Ever more complicated programs (sell more courses to the believers!!!!)

*Brown suggest his own, far more subtle method of mirroring.

 

[MikeSun5]

I'm currently reading Tricks Of The Mind by Derren Brown.

The book was recommended to me by several fellow JREFers and I'd like to thank them for that. it is excellent.

Brown devotes a whole section to hypnosis and suggestion and also does a whole chapter on NLP. I'll sum up his conclusions:

NLP is pseudo-scientific claptrap with some techniques that have merit.
These techniques are not unique to NLP (can anyone back this up?)
The techniques that Brown thinks useful are:

• Changing your body posture to match the state you want to be in (don't slouch when you want to feel assertive and empowered)
• Taking control of (traumatic?) memories by playing movie director and "replaying" them in your head. Turn the sound down, drain the colour from it etc. Styling choices to make it less intense.
• Taking control of empowering memories by playing director and turning up the sound, intensifying the colours, putting cool music under it.
• The Swish pattern has merit according to Brown.

I'd say that's only somewhat accurate. You've got to understand that DB is a SHOWMAN. He relies on being in control, and every person he "uses NLP on" knows who he is (and therefore they know he's in control). He employs a large group of people to find suitable "candidates" for his acts. He then puts the candidates through various tests and questionnaires to narrow down the group. If you start with a field of 2000 people who want to be on Derren's show, and you widdle the group down to 3 highly suggestible people, one of those three encounters will probably yield some good footage. I think that DB is showing misdirection even in explaining the methods of his effects. If he came out in a book and said the reason that NLP clip of him and Simon Pegg on youtube worked was because "I got lucky," mentalists around the world would have freaked the hell out. But since he said it was a billet switch and NLP, it sounds perfectly legit. (I personally think it was a good script, luck, clever editing, AND ye olde billet switch)


Also, when a "victim" is chosen by a hypnotist/magician/mentalist to "perform" in front of a crowd, the "victim" will usually play along. JFrankA would know more about that.

 

[microdot]

Well, I asked for answers to my questions and I certainly got them so thanks for those

Maia - I'm detecting a note of hostility in your response and I'm not quite sure why - was it something about my spelling?

I'm currently reading Tricks Of The Mind by Derren Brown.

The book was recommended to me by several fellow JREFers and I'd like to thank them for that. it is excellent.

I also have a copy, in my admittedly small library, of Tricks of The Mind and I agree that it's a fascinating read. I also tend to agree with many of DB's views around NLP and related subject matter as I believe he proffers reasonable, balanced arguments based on careful observation and first hand experience.

You may be surprised to know that I'd also tend to agree with DB's take on the use of matching and mirroring to establish rapport. I've taken part in sales negotiations where the sales person has slavishly matched / mirrored every aspect of my posture and it was very obvious to me. On the other hand there have been many occasions where I've been engaged in conversations with people, felt strong rapport with them and subsequently noticed that there are considerable similarities between the body postures we have naturally and individually adopted.

In such circumstances i.e. where I've felt rapport with a person and noted the similarities in our individual postures I've also noted that an intentional posture change on my part has been replicated shortly thereafter by the other person. Thus I'm still inclined to believe that is a commonly and naturally ocurring behavioural pattern.

I think that DB is showing misdirection even in explaining the methods of his effects.

Having read the book and watched a number of his TV programs I'd come to much the same conclusion myself.

In the opening of many of DB's television programs he emphasises that misdirection is a key ingredient in achieving his results. Even when he's explaining the techniques that he supposedly uses to achieve those results I get the distinct impression that there are other layers of misdirection being utilised, and IMHO the book is written in the same style. I think the book is very purposely and carefully written in a thought provoking manner to evoke curiosity and encourage readers to come to their own carefully formed conclusions.

I think a lot of NLP "techniques," like the pickup artist "techniques" happen like this:
1. the practitioner notices something that happens during a conversation
2. the practitioner notices the same thing happen in a different conversation
3. the practitioner claims this happens in all conversations
4. the practitioner conducts a few studies
5. the practitioner throws out all results that don't support the original claim
6. the practitioner presents anecdotal and/or biased evidence to support the claim

With regard to the overall theme of this thread I imagine there are more than a few people out there who are using NLP type techniques wrapped in circular reasoning in order to line their wallets and that the six steps outlined by MikeSun5 are likely to align quite closely with the strategies employed by such individuals in achieving their desired objectives.

Which leads me back, tongue in cheek, to the response to one of my earlier questions.

The question was - How do you know that people will suffer substantially lower IQ from reading too much information on that link?

The response included - It happened to me.

Now, I must confess to being somewhat 'nit-picky' here, but isn't that a prime example of point 3?

3. the practitioner claims this happens in all conversations

Doncha think?

 

[JFrankA]

Well, I asked for answers to my questions and I certainly got them so thanks for those

Maia - I'm detecting a note of hostility in your response and I'm not quite sure why - was it something about my spelling?

I can't speak for Maia, and I hope she corrects me if I'm wrong, but the hostility is the fact that most women are not pawns that one can use tricks to simply get into bed. Most women who are worth it don't play the game.

'Sides, we guys are notorious for making, and please excuse the reference, "fish stories" out of our "conquests".

I also have a copy, in my admittedly small library, of Tricks of The Mind and I agree that it's a fascinating read. I also tend to agree with many of DB's views around NLP and related subject matter as I believe he proffers reasonable, balanced arguments based on careful observation and first hand experience.

Derren has written quite a few books other than "Tricks of the Mind". This is a book written by a stage performer trying to give a personal history and "Magic 101" lesson along with it. He is brutally honest in it, he's hiding nothing. A lot of the memory tricks and things in the book was exactly as how Eddie Dane beautifully put it.

Note that these are considered USEFUL, without exaggerating the claims. it's like with the exercise equipment they sell on TV. Yes, an Ab-Shaper will help you do sit-ups. No, it doesn't turn you into an eighteen-year old beefcake fitness model in five minutes a day.

A magician's real talent, though, is taking that mundane, useful, little known stuff and presenting it in a way that is "magical".

The thing about Derren, or any stage magician worth her/his salt, is that once the lights are off, once he's off-stage, he will break character. He will not let his "magic" go into real life. Penn & Teller do that, Randi does that, any real professional magician will drop the "fourth wall", and without revealing the secret of the trick of course, admit that there's nothing "magical" going on.

You may be surprised to know that I'd also tend to agree with DB's take on the use of matching and mirroring to establish rapport. I've taken part in sales negotiations where the sales person has slavishly matched / mirrored every aspect of my posture and it was very obvious to me. On the other hand there have been many occasions where I've been engaged in conversations with people, felt strong rapport with them and subsequently noticed that there are considerable similarities between the body postures we have naturally and individually adopted.

In such circumstances i.e. where I've felt rapport with a person and noted the similarities in our individual postures I've also noted that an intentional posture change on my part has been replicated shortly thereafter by the other person. Thus I'm still inclined to believe that is a commonly and naturally ocurring behavioural pattern.

Maybe, but then, you wanted it to work. Here's part of the problem. You believe and want it work so you associate it. Gotta do a real, double blind test with you NOT participating, just observing and see what really goes on.

Having read the book and watched a number of his TV programs I'd come to much the same conclusion myself.

Definitely. But then, he's performing. He's brilliant at creating something magicians call "Duel-Reality".

(No, not a magical woo, just very clever misdirection).

In the opening of many of DB's television programs he emphasises that misdirection is a key ingredient in achieving his results. Even when he's explaining the techniques that he supposedly uses to achieve those results I get the distinct impression that there are other layers of misdirection being utilised, and IMHO the book is written in the same style. I think the book is very purposely and carefully written in a thought provoking manner to evoke curiosity and encourage readers to come to their own carefully formed conclusions.

He's not performing in the book. He's being very honest. I've read a couple of his other books and they are more for advanced magicians. As I said, he's giving a basic "Derren Brown Magic 101" in this book.

With regard to the overall theme of this thread I imagine there are more than a few people out there who are using NLP type techniques wrapped in circular reasoning in order to line their wallets and that the six steps outlined by MikeSun5 are likely to align quite closely with the strategies employed by such individuals in achieving their desired objectives.

Which leads me back, tongue in cheek, to the response to one of my earlier questions.

The question was - How do you know that people will suffer substantially lower IQ from reading too much information on that link?

The response included - It happened to me.

Now, I must confess to being somewhat 'nit-picky' here, but isn't that a prime example of point 3?



Doncha think?

Perhaps you have a point there. We are all guilty of it. However, the difference is that MikeSun isn't asking for any money for his opinion. He's trying to direct people away from someone who is actually trying to con a poor guy into believing that this will make him get women.

And yes, I believe if someone does read your website and then decide to shell out a lot of money for one of those courses by Mystery and the others, then he is being stupid.


This whole NLP and hypnosis things is simply this, in order of importance:

1. Desire - from the person receiving the NLP/hypnosis
2. Confidence - from the person doing the NLP/hypnosis
3. Confusion - from the person doing the NLP/hypnosis
4. Belief - from the person receiving the NLP/hypnosis

That's it. Enough to con people or entertain them for a night (if you know misdirection and sleight of hand), but not enough to have "any woman you desire" or "sell anything you want to anybody".

That's the difference.