Amway TV ad

[icerat]

From the Scheibeler book, that's part of the conditioning.
Rule 1: Never question your upline
Rule 2: Never discuss financial matters downline or crossline

From icerat's book, as taught by his upline
Rule 1: Question your upline incessantly - it's the best way to learn, and communication is essentially
Rule 2: Meet at least once a month to discuss financial matters with your downline, plan strategies, tweak business plans etc.

The Kingpins build a perception of everyone in the middle making far more than they do in reality. They go so far as to encourage people to dress the part with fancy clothes, jewelry and cars even if they can't afford it.

That depends what you mean by "The Kingpins". If you mean certain "leaders" in some groups, so I've heard. If you mean every major Amway leader, you're wrong. Indeed in the organisation I work with we're taught the exact opposite - watch your finances, operate with integrity. There's story after story told by top leaders of them keeping their crappy cars and buying second hand clothes etc etc while building their businesses.

 

[Porkchopjim]

From icerat's book, as taught by his upline
Rule 1: Question your upline incessantly - it's the best way to learn, and communication is essentially

And then don't question them. Ensure all your most basic desicions - such as having children, buying a car or a house - are approved by your upline. Keep seeking assurance that you are doing the right thing even if your bank account is draining. Buy more of your own products to see your business volume increase - it's a proven technique.

Rule 2: Meet at least once a month to discuss financial matters with your downline, plan strategies, tweak business plans etc.

Keep the indoctrination reinforced. "Financial matters" center on ensuring you are moving sufficient 'tools' in your group because they are 'very valuable' and are 'certainly' an indicator of future success.

Whether you have been in Amway 1 day or 10 years - you get the same tool as everyone else in the 'training program'. Rest assured that they'll get a big chunk out of you with a 'starter pack': let no recruitment go to waste!

That depends what you mean by "The Kingpins". If you mean certain "leaders" in some groups, so I've heard. If you mean every major Amway leader, you're wrong. Indeed in the organisation I work with we're taught the exact opposite - watch your finances, operate with integrity. There's story after story told by top leaders of them keeping their crappy cars and buying second hand clothes etc etc while building their businesses.

"Operate with integrity" is Amspeak for "don't keep anything from your upline."

It does not work in the other direction, though.

With the lion's share of 'business expenses' coming from 'training and business development materials, meetings and huge gala events' not marketed by Amway...you'd find yourself only being able to afford crappy cars and clothes until you get a decent cut of that action.

Nothing but integrity, baby!

 

[icerat]

And then don't question them. Ensure all your most basic desicions - such as having children, buying a car or a house - are approved by your upline. Keep seeking assurance that you are doing the right thing even if your bank account is draining. Buy more of your own products to see your business volume increase - it's a proven technique.

You see PCJ, this is where you fit the classic definition of an internet troll. You just repeat stuff incessantly, even though you not's true, at least in the general, and definitely as it applies to me.

I've seen reports of groups promoting the type of behaviour PCJ talks about, but as he well knows (because he's been told umpteen times before), I've never experienced anything like it, and indeed the exact opposite. He just keep repeating it to stir me up.

Keep the indoctrination reinforced. "Financial matters" center on ensuring you are moving sufficient 'tools' in your group because they are 'very valuable' and are 'certainly' an indicator of future success.

Statistically they are an indicator of future success. Clearly a lot more than that gets discussed. Not that you know, since you've never even been an IBO.

Whether you have been in Amway 1 day or 10 years - you get the same tool as everyone else in the 'training program'. Rest assured that they'll get a big chunk out of you with a 'starter pack': let no recruitment go to waste!

More trolling. PCJ has never even been an IBO, let alone listend to materials tapes from the extremely wide range of companies that provide them. He has no idea what's on most of them.

"Operate with integrity" is Amspeak for "don't keep anything from your upline."

It does not work in the other direction, though.

With the lion's share of 'business expenses' coming from 'training and business development materials, meetings and huge gala events' not marketed by Amway...you'd find yourself only being able to afford crappy cars and clothes until you get a decent cut of that action.

If you a 2 or 3 thousand bucks a year business expenses is having that dramatic effect on your finances, and your not making any money to offset it, then clearly you've got some problems that need fixing. I reached break even within a few months of starting my Amway business. I wish I could say the same for my other businesses.

Nothing but integrity, baby!

Something you are apparently short of. You even admitted just making stuff up in the price comparison post you did earlier.

 

[Porkchopjim]

You see PCJ, this is where you fit the classic definition of an internet troll. You just repeat stuff incessantly, even though you not's true, at least in the general, and definitely as it applies to me.

Of course not! We'll get to that in a second...

Tools:

Statistically they are an indicator of future success.

Right...published results, no doubt.

More trolling. PCJ has never even been an IBO, let alone listend to materials tapes from the extremely wide range of companies that provide them. He has no idea what's on most of them.

PCJ has been an IBO for almost 3 years now. Something you continue to forget.

Seeing as you've never attempted to 'build your business' to anything that might provide a living wage, nevermind comfortable residual income, I suspect it would be OK if I consider your experience less than 'in-depth' and perhaps a little rose colored.

While I certainly don't have the depth of library you or Tex has - I wonder how many above 20 or so I have to suffer through before I hear something other than truisms, generalizations, INCORRECT information, and the constant drumming of 'Stay on the system!'?

You even admitted just making stuff up in the price comparison post you did earlier.

On the first one - yes, I guess at the price of Costco vitamins and GREATLY improved your position.

That has since been corrected showing just how overpriced your contaminated vitamins really are.

So, you're welcome.

Else, as far as 'it's not my group':

I can certainly understand why you're so non-atheistic religiously devoted to the fanatical defense of your quaint little business opportunity which should in no ways be confused with a cult.

There's just a constant nagging problem that continues to chase you around: you, in you utopian non-abusive business support network sound just like those poor Amway salesmen who are trapped in those 'abusive' systems that give Amway such a bad name. To wit:

Poor Amway Salesman: “My upline isn't like that. He runs an ethical and honest business and makes sure that I do, to.”
Icerat: “My upline isn't like that. It's an ethical and honest business!”
Difference: none.

Poor Amway Salesman: “We have optional 'business support materials' that are proven to help Amway salesmen grow their business.”
Icerat: “Of course there are 'business support materials' that are greatly helpful in building an Amway business.”
Problem: There doesn't seem to be any proof of the efficacy of those dubious 'training materials.'
Difference: none.

PAS: “We have 'Eagle Qualification' that is based almost exclusively on how many 'business support materials' we are pushing downline.”
Icerat: “One of our metrics for business 'wellness' is how many 'business support materials' we are pushing downline.”
Difference: none.

PAS: “I don't care if the materials are useless, I enjoy them and they have helped me in other areas of my life.”
Icerat: “We have business training just like any other profession. Some of the members find some material more helpful than others.”
Problem: you can put most business training – Microsoft certification, Lean-six sigma...on a resume to actually help you in other areas. You can not put “I listened to 15 years worth of Amway tapes” in the “training and qualifications” section.

PAS: “Buy from yourself and teach others to do the same!”
Icerat: “They should buy what they want, and if they don't reach their goal, they should sell something.”
Difference: nothing.

PAS: “I have lots of customers.”
Icerat: “Not only are there lots of customers, but a measurable percentage of IBOs continue to order Amway products once they quit the business.”
Problem: if the demand for Amway products was driven by true market demand, Amway North America would have seen corresponding growth just from the former IBOs maintaining the consumption of Amway products when they were in the business. They haven't.

PAS: “I like the religion and politics.”
Icreate: “Aha! MY group doesn't have the religion and politics!”
Difference: got me. There doesn't seem to be any difference between the 'business training' systems as far as structure and price. And there certainly isn't any difference in results from the 'business training' – and any 'business growth' has been due to manipulations of some sort, e.g. - increasing personal consumption or 'stacking' and playing with the pyramid structure.

So, forgive us if we don't immediately fall for the 'but it's not like that' schtick when, so far, it IS like that.

There's a lot of evidence suggesting that Scientology has marvelous self-improvement techniques. Have you looked into that?

 

[oggiesnr]

Having continued looking at the UK Amway catalogue and comparing prices I have reached the following conclusion...

Given that the tool scam is not allowed in the UK there is no way that an Amway rep can possibly find enough gullible fools to keep buying the overpriced products to make a long term viable business. Over the past few years the UK market has become very price sensitive in a lot of areas and the disparity between Amway and the general market is so great that even the convenience of home delivery (also available from ASDA, Tesco and most internet retaillers) ain't going to make it work.

Unlike some other MLMs (eg Barefoot Books) which are at least in the right sort of price range, the Amway products (in the UK) are so out of kilter as to be ludicrous.

Steve

 

[icerat]

PCJ has been an IBO for almost 3 years now. Something you continue to forget.

I don't think I even knew it. Why?

Seeing as you've never attempted to 'build your business' to anything that might provide a living wage, nevermind comfortable residual income, I suspect it would be OK if I consider your experience less than 'in-depth' and perhaps a little rose colored.

And your experience fits where on the spectrum?

While I certainly don't have the depth of library you or Tex has - I wonder how many above 20 or so I have to suffer through before I hear something other than truisms, generalizations, INCORRECT information, and the constant drumming of 'Stay on the system!'?

I think on Amway Wiki we've so far established the names of at least 60 different BSM suppliers around the world. 20 or so from probably one or two groups isn't much of a sample, no.

On the first one - yes, I guess at the price of Costco vitamins and GREATLY improved your position.

Not greatly at all, particularly since the product you picked wasn't even remotely comparable. All of which is beside the point - it was your dishonesty that was the issue there.

That has since been corrected showing just how overpriced your contaminated vitamins really are.

Contaminated vitamins? More made up stuff? Nutrilite is one of the few companies to have *never* failed a ConsumerLabs test. A major mag in Germany did a study of the top 20 or 30 supplements in that country, and Nutrilite was *the only* one that had in it exactly what was said on the box.

I might bother responding to the rest if you ever bother learning what non sequitur means

 

[icerat]

Unlike some other MLMs (eg Barefoot Books) which are at least in the right sort of price range, the Amway products (in the UK) are so out of kilter as to be ludicrous.

Steve

Any examples? I've just picked the Beauty & Grooming catalogue since we know from indpendent sources exactly who the competitors of Artistry are (eg Estee Lauder, Lancome, Clarins), and at more than a billion in sales it makes up a significant chunk of Amway's business. Let's try the basic "essentials", the most popular and on the first page of the Amway catalogue -

ARTISTRY essentials Hydrating Cleanser £11.30/135ml = £8.37/100ml
Estee Launder Splash Away Foaming Cleanser £17.50/125ml = £14.00/100ml
Amway Artistry 40% cheaper

ARTISTRY essentials Hydrating Lotion SPF 15 £15.37/50ml = £30.74/100ml
Estee Launder Day Wear Plus £29.00/50ml = £58.00/100ml
Amway Artistry 47% cheaper

ARTISTRY essentials Hydrating Toner £11.30/200ml = £5.65/100ml
Estee Lauder Fresh Balancing Lotion £17.50/200ml = £8.75/100ml
Amway Artistry 35% cheaper

On just the first page, Amway wins easily.

Let's try something else. Tesco wouldn't let me look at prices, but I could get on to www.adsa.co.uk.

How about Amway's oldest and most popular product, good old LOC all purpose cleaner? From the home living catalogue -

L.O.C. Multi-Purpose Cleaner £4.11/1 litre makes 20 litres = £0.26/litre
Dettol All Purpose Cleaner £2.20/litre (on special)
Amway 88% cheaper

I'm just picking some products we use, that are straightforward and easy to compare (unlike Nutrilite), and that are some of Amway's biggest selling. I haven't checked anything and found it expensive and not included it.

L.O.C. Plus Bathroom Cleaner £3.47/500ml makes min 2 litres = £0.86/500ml
Flash Bathroom Spray £1.60/500ml
Amway 46% cheaper

L.O.C. Plus Bathroom Cleaner £3.47/500ml makes min 2 litres = £0.86/500ml
Mr Muscle Window & Glass Cleaner £1.45/500ml
Amway 41% cheaper

6 out of 6 to Amway so far.

Let's try one that Amway nearly always "loses" in a straightforward comparison.

SA8 Bioquest Washing Powder £9.70/2.25kg - 54 washes £0.18/wash
Persil Washing Powder - bio £8.50/4.25kg - 50 washes £0,17/wash

Amway 5% more expensive!

Oh yeah, so out of kilter as to be ludicrous

But ... every time I've ever checked, the "number of washes" on the front of boxes like Persil refers to usage with soft water, low dirt clothes or similar - not "average" type washes. Go check it yourself. Amway's number refers to average ph water, average dirt. When you adjust, Amway wins easily. Again.

And this is all at full retail price. Active IBOs get the products 25%-55% cheaper.

Seems there's a business there afterall, just perhaps?

 

[NewtonTrino]

Who wouldn't? And yes, we do business plans.

Care to share?

I <3 PorkChopJim

 

[PlayingDeaf]

And this is all at full retail price. Active IBOs get the products 25%-55% cheaper.

Seems there's a business there afterall, just perhaps?

You gave 6 products matched with one retail price?
One product you mentioned cost even more than the retail?
Are you trying to make a profit?

Have fun selling crap products with a very, very, very small profit while having however many IBOs trying to sell the same damn things.

A lot of competition brings down prices doesn't it?

 

[NewtonTrino]

You don't understand these are PREMIUM products we are talking about. They are a bargain at any price! Or something like that anyway.

 

[oggiesnr]

If of course you stop comparing Amway with premium branded products then the answers come out very different -

Another set of comparisons

Now I realise that response will be it's not comparing like with like but neither is comparing the cachet of Amway with Estee Lauder. For that special present which would you buy?

Steve

 

[icerat]

If of course you stop comparing Amway with premium branded products then the answers come out very different

Amazing. I do a current price comparison, with links to sources, but you reject it for a 13 yr old one with no sourcing!

I don't think Dettol, Flash, or Mr Muscle brands are exactly premium.

Yes, Artistry is, and that's the target market.

So I gather your of the school that anyone who buys a BMW is being duped?

Now I realise that response will be it's not comparing like with like but neither is comparing the cachet of Amway with Estee Lauder. For that special present which would you buy?

As I said, it's an independent assessment by people who do such assessments for a living (Euromonitor), not mine.

Given over a billion in sales and ranked in the top 5 in the prestige category, and #1 in several countries, clearly there's a market.

Now, it may not be well known in the UK, but that means there's an opportunity, not the opposite. No brand would succeed if they started from a position of wanting to be well known before you could market them!

 

[oggiesnr]

So I gather your of the school that anyone who buys a BMW is being duped?

Nope, but you are if you buy a Skoda thinking it's a BMW.

Steve

 

[icerat]

Which takes me back to the survey I highlighted earlier, which found that people who had actually bought products from direct selling companies had very positive views of the product quality.

It was the people who'd never tried them who though they were crap. Always nice to make a judgement without bothering with evidence.

Again, it's not mu judgement about Artistry, I don't use the stuff. It's an expert independent assessment of quality and prestige. Amway products have been recognized for quality and won awards all around the world., including an Artistry product being nominated for a "product of the year" award in the UK

But I guess you have to keep up with the "crap products" mantra in order to deal with the dissonance.

 

[oggiesnr]

How about Amway's oldest and most popular product, good old LOC all purpose cleaner? From the home living catalogue -

L.O.C. Multi-Purpose Cleaner £4.11/1 litre makes 20 litres = £0.26/litre
Dettol All Purpose Cleaner £2.20/litre (on special)
Amway 88% cheaper

I'm just picking some products we use, that are straightforward and easy to compare (unlike Nutrilite), and that are some of Amway's biggest selling. I haven't checked anything and found it expensive and not included it.

L.O.C. Plus Bathroom Cleaner £3.47/500ml makes min 2 litres = £0.86/500ml
Flash Bathroom Spray £1.60/500ml
Amway 46% cheaper

L.O.C. Plus Bathroom Cleaner £3.47/500ml makes min 2 litres = £0.86/500ml
Mr Muscle Window & Glass Cleaner £1.45/500ml
Amway 41% cheaper

Again you're in the comparing apples and pears business (and distorting your pears as well). You are comparing a concentrate (Amway) with not concentrate that comes in a dispenser/spray unit.

Steve

 

[icerat]

Again you're in the comparing apples and pears business (and distorting your pears as well). You are comparing a concentrate (Amway) with not concentrate that comes in a dispenser/spray unit.

Steve

I give away the spray bottles.

But geez, you're clutching at straws now. Particularly since just 5 posts backs you were linking to a more than decade old post, from another country, that does the same thing.

But still you're right - it's not a fair comparison. Not only is the Amway product cheaper, it's also better for the environment, with less plastic, less shipping, and fully biodegradable.

And if you ever bothered to use it, you'd find it works A LOT better too. The LOC range is just fantastic. BTW, did you know that Amway was probably the first company to popularise the term "biodegradable"?

 

[icerat]

In the interests of accuracy I just realised I made a mistake on the LOC all purpose cleaner. It will make 20x500ml bottles, not 20 litres, so should be -

L.O.C. Multi-Purpose Cleaner £4.11/1 litre makes 10 litres = £0.41/litre
Dettol All Purpose Cleaner £2.20/litre (on special)
Amway 81% cheaper

 

[NewtonTrino]

Yes, amway sells SUPER SOAP that is way better than anything else.

I always remember the line that LOC was so safe you could drink the stuff (never tried but I was tempted).

Again you are comparing concentrate to non-concentrate. Go find some concentrate to compare to. These products are not used the same way... hence not a valid comparison.

So Icerat, how many of these products go to end consumers vs IBO's?

 

[icerat]

Again you are comparing concentrate to non-concentrate. Go find some concentrate to compare to. These products are not used the same way... hence not a valid comparison.

Right. One is sprayed from a bottle. The other is put in a spray bottle, water added, and sprayed from a bottle.

BIG difference!

As I already pointed out, this just makes the Amway product even better value, so the point is already proven.

As it was, Steve raised Tesco and Adsa as better deals, not me.

So Icerat, how many of these products go to end consumers vs IBO's?

That question makes no sense and is a typical "critic" red herring. IBOs are a subset of end consumers. Close enough to 100% of all products go to end consumers.

 

[NewtonTrino]

That question makes no sense and is a typical "critic" red herring. IBOs are a subset of end consumers. Close enough to 100% of all products go to end consumers.

I'm sorry but you are just LYING here. IBO's are NOT end consumers. They have a vested interest in using the products for promotional purposes.

Now please answer the question! How many of these products go to end consumers vs IBO's?