Amway TV ad

[icerat]

I'm sorry but you are just LYING here. IBO's are NOT end consumers.

Oh good grief.

Buy pasta. Cook pasta. Eat pasta.

How is that not being an end consumer?

 

[icerat]

Not to mention that laws and government agencies all around the world (including FTC, EU etc) all recognize legitimate "internal consumption" ... so you've just called the very people who get to define this stuff as "liars"

 

[Almo]

Sure, Microsoft employees probably buy (unless they get them free) Windows licenses. But I think you'll find the great majority of Windows licenses are sold to people with no relationship to MS as a business entity.

The gripe we have is that in our experience (Mine and Newton's), the Amway distributors we've known were their own biggest customer. It's hardly running a business if you're the one buying your stuff. You're just generating PV for your upline.

I'd be surprised if many legitimate businesses have self-purchase ratios nearly as high as they are in Amway.

This could be explained by a simple "good product/I'm a distributor" relationship. But looking at the price comparisons (like the famous Costco vitamins) I can't see that being true. It's people buying from themselves since it's a convenient way to buy stuff they're going to buy anyway and help their Amway numbers. If they weren't getting ripped off so bad to support the upline, this would be a non-issue.

It always comes back to the flawed MLM system. A bunch of people above you getting a cut for being middle-middle-middle-middle-men.

You can use the argument that these people "built volume for the business." Other massively successful companies build volume fine without the MLM component. Their organizations are more efficient at generating revenue since there aren't all these people along the line siphoning off money.

 

[icerat]

Sure, Microsoft employees probably buy (unless they get them free) Windows licenses. But I think you'll find the great majority of Windows licenses are sold to people with no relationship to MS as a business entity.

The gripe we have is that in our experience (Mine and Newton's), the Amway distributors we've known were their own biggest customer. It's hardly running a business if you're the one buying your stuff. You're just generating PV for your upline.

If your volume is primarily made up of self-purchases, then pretty much by definition you're not in business and not even trying to be in business. Your just a retail customer for your upline.

This could be explained by a simple "good product/I'm a distributor" relationship. But looking at the price comparisons (like the famous Costco vitamins) I can't see that being true.

What does that comparison have to do with anything? It's clearly not even close to a valid comparison, they're not even the same type of product, as much as people like PCJ try to pretend they are. I just provided a bunch of products with independent confirmation of their target market, and some others which are clear competitors, and Amway was VERY price competitive.

Why do you keep just ignoring the evidence?

It's people buying from themselves since it's a convenient way to buy stuff they're going to buy anyway and help their Amway numbers. If they weren't getting ripped off so bad to support the upline, this would be a non-issue.

Oh yeah. Let me see. The stuff is >40% cheaper than the competitors. As an ABO your getting it 25%+ cheaper AGAIN.

Yup, getting ripped off so bad!

It always comes back to the flawed MLM system. A bunch of people above you getting a cut for being middle-middle-middle-middle-men.

Again, you chose just to completely ignore the evidence. I provided it, with sources, before - the average number of "middleman" in Amway is typically LESS than most traditional distribution systems.

You don't like the reality, so your just keep repeating an already discredited argument.

You can use the argument that these people "built volume for the business." Other massively successful companies build volume fine without the MLM component. Their organizations are more efficient at generating revenue since there aren't all these people along the line siphoning off money.

Why do you keep just ignoring the evidence?

 

[Porkchopjim]

I don't think I even knew it. Why?

You knew it. You've known it for at least a year. Seems it was disclosed on QBlog...why? Well, seeing as we're having 'honesty' issues...

I think on Amway Wiki we've so far established the names of at least 60 different BSM suppliers around the world. 20 or so from probably one or two groups isn't much of a sample, no.

From the person who claimed that, statistically, being on a steady dose of 'tools' increases success...and yet fails to define 'success' other than 'each IBO gets to decide'...I'll continue to stick with my sampling as a reasonable representation of the drivel that you seem to worship and recommend. Perhaps it's hyperconsuming overpriced vitamins that's the key to success? How about reading "Acheive" magazine? Both of those are as solidly founded as your earlier assertion...


Vitamins:

...the product you picked wasn't even remotely comparable. All of which is beside the point - it was your dishonesty that was the issue there.

As you say - sigh. Fine. You win.

I grossly overestimated the cost of Costco Kirkland vitamins. You picked the cheapest Amway product you could find and claimed to 'beat' the price. The REAL price of Costco vitamins - which I admitted at first was a guess - showed that INDEED even your cheapest product is grossly overpriced. Kind of like I said to begin with. But, anyway...

You've taught us all a valuable lesson:

In order to make Amway look good, someone has to lie.

You seem to wear that as a badge of honor so I don't know why you'd get on MY case about it. Jeesh.

When the truth comes out - Amway never ends up looking as good as originally presented. Rinse - Repeat!

Contaminated vitamins? More made up stuff? Nutrilite is one of the few companies to have *never* failed a ConsumerLabs test. A major mag in Germany did a study of the top 20 or 30 supplements in that country, and Nutrilite was *the only* one that had in it exactly what was said on the box.

Being familiar with ConsumerLabs, I comfortable saying that your first assertion is suspect. "One of the few" might be a 'bit' strong...

Secondly, even YOU can't seem to tell me what is in 'alfalfa' - other than precious 'phytonutrients' (excuse me while I snicker) - nor what any of that other stuff in 'alfalfa' might do. I already tried to explain that to you: when you have stuff that you don't exactly know what it is in your compound, that's called a 'contaminate'. I know you 'social science' guys don't get that far into the details...so maybe you shouldn't pretend?

The 'major German magazine' was a nice touch, though! Impressive!

I might bother responding to the rest if you ever bother learning what non sequitur means

The mere observation that what you describe as your blissful, benign Amway experience is the same as what those poor Amway salesmen describe as their blissful, benign Amway experience - yet somehow those 'other' groups are abusive, but not yours...

...is a non sequitur?

Is that another code-word for 'the truth' that you in-the-know Amway trained business professionals have?

Go back to the statistical success of tools - you were getting more traction with that.

 

[CynicalSkeptic]

Sure, Microsoft employees probably buy (unless they get them free) Windows licenses. But I think you'll find the great majority of Windows licenses are sold to people with no relationship to MS as a business entity.

The gripe we have is that in our experience (Mine and Newton's), the Amway distributors we've known were their own biggest customer. It's hardly running a business if you're the one buying your stuff. You're just generating PV for your upline.

I'm having this argument with people on Facebook in the Efusjon MLM/scam.

The money is coming from others who have joined Efusjon and paid for their Energy Drinks. Just as my money goes to Efusjon for the Energy drinks.

Classic Pyramid scam. It will all collapse eventually. Just ask Bernie Madoff.

The same way McDonalds pays their employees with the money they get from their hamburgers.

No, it's not the same as McDonald's at all. McDonald's has real customers, they don't just re-sell their hamburgers to their own employees, and pay the employees with the money they make from selling them hamburgers. Money has to come from outside the system or it will collapse.

 

[icerat]

I'm having this argument with people on Facebook in the Efusjon MLM/scam.

Well, this is where it gets problematic. Would they buy efusjon if they weren't trying to make money from it?

Could "the last person in" make money by reselling the product to clients?

I don't know, never tried the product. From this comparison (by an efusjon guy), efusjon looks a little better than Red Bull, but not a lot. For me it would therefore come down to taste. Personally I think Red Bull is one of the worst things I ever tasted, so I don't buy it. If efusjon tasted good, I might.

Edit: looking at the ingredients, efusjon's a lot better than red bull, health wise.

By contrast, Amway has hundreds of millions of dollars of certified client sales, and who knows how much uncertified - so clearly we know there's a legitimate market from the products.

Furthermore, less than 13% of IBOs are in a position to "profit" from recruiting, yet more than half who join continue to reorder products despite most of them having no profit incentive, and a quarter of those who resign from the business completely continue as customers.

 

[CynicalSkeptic]

Well, this is where it gets problematic. Would they buy efusjon if they weren't trying to make money from it?

Not Damn Likely in my opinion, but some claim the would despte the fact that it costs more than double Red Bull (wholesale including shipping is over $3 for an 8oz can).

Could "the last person in" make money by reselling the product to clients?

Theoretically, sure. But realistically no. There's copious amounts of that junk on ebay for less than wholesale.

 

[oggiesnr]

Secondly, even YOU can't seem to tell me what is in 'alfalfa' - other than precious 'phytonutrients' (excuse me while I snicker) - nor what any of that other stuff in 'alfalfa' might do.

More info here Phytonutrients.

As far as I can see anything that contains vegetable matter should contain phytonutrients and the jury's out on what effect it has. It is also a matter for debate as to whether eating more fruit and veg would be better than swallowing another high priced pill.

Steve

 

[icerat]

As far as I can see anything that contains vegetable matter should contain phytonutrients and the jury's out on what effect it has.

Huh? There's an ENORMOUS body of research linking increased F&V intake to better health outcomes. The jury isn't out, it went home a long time ago.

It is also a matter for debate as to whether eating more fruit and veg would be better than swallowing another high priced pill.

I don't think there's much debate there at all. The first best choice is a good diet.

The debate here is whether synthetic vitamin isolates are as good as plant concentrates, nutritionally speaking.

The jury went home on that one too.

Steve - how many Amway products have you personally had experience with?

 

[NewtonTrino]

By contrast, Amway has hundreds of millions of dollars of certified client sales, and who knows how much uncertified - so clearly we know there's a legitimate market from the products.

Then you should easily be able to tell me what percentage of product goes outside the pyramid to end customers. So what's the number? All you do is true to confuse a very simple issue.

Also given the fact that you've never built a large amway business why are you such the expert on how it's done? I'm still waiting for you to find SOMEONE, ANYONE, who is successful at amway to come and talk to use about the real intricacies of their business. All we are getting from you is spin spin spin to try and make it look good. WHERE ARE ALL THE SUCCESSFUL AMWAY PEOPLE? Pics or it didn't happen

 

[NewtonTrino]

Huh? There's an ENORMOUS body of research linking increased F&V intake to better health outcomes. The jury isn't out, it went home a long time ago.

Got any references? The top 10 best studies should do the trick. Feel free to post links.. Actually I think maybe we should start a thread on this because it's probably of interest to the wider JREF audience.

 

[icerat]

Then you should easily be able to tell me what percentage of product goes outside the pyramid to end customers. So what's the number? All you do is true to confuse a very simple issue.

No, it's you who are trying to confuse the issue, it's a red herring. The only people interested in it are people trying to twist it to some form of criticism. FTC says it's a non-issue. Canadian consumer bureau says it's a non-issue. EU says it's a non-issue. Acadamics say it's a non-issue.

I've already provided links supporting all of that.

You still want to make it an issue.

Seriously, is that all you've got?

Also given the fact that you've never built a large amway business why are you such the expert on how it's done?

That's pretty funny coming from someone whose been, unlike myself, making claims not just about their experience, but about the entire Amway world ... and has never built an Amway business.

I'm still waiting for you to find SOMEONE, ANYONE, who is successful at amway to come and talk to use about the real intricacies of their business.

rofl! Your full of self-importance aren't you. I don't think your worth the effort of going in to the "intricacies" of my business, why do you think I'd ask someone else to? And why don't YOU go ask someone? There's plenty of diamonds and above accessible around the net. Heck, go to an Amway open plan somewhere.

All we are getting from you is spin spin spin to try and make it look good. WHERE ARE ALL THE SUCCESSFUL AMWAY PEOPLE? Pics or it didn't happen

http://www.amwaywiki.com has plenty of pics. Look under Amagrams esp.

Amazing though ... the usual "critic" double standard. It's perfectly alright to claim the products are crap and overpriced ... without ever having tried the products and providing no pricing sources ... but providing independent sources judging the products, and links to pricing of the products and their competitors? That's spin.

Uhuh

 

[icerat]

Got any references? The top 10 best studies should do the trick. Feel free to post links.. Actually I think maybe we should start a thread on this because it's probably of interest to the wider JREF audience.

And I'm definitely not going to waste my time on such a stupid pursuit as that. I'm not sure whether you're really that ignorant or just trolling. Either way you're making a fool of yourself - so please, go post a thread challenging the idea that higher Fruit & Vegetable intake is linked to better health.

That should be fun.

 

[NewtonTrino]

And I'm definitely not going to waste my time on such a stupid pursuit as that. I'm not sure whether you're really that ignorant or just trolling. Either way you're making a fool of yourself - so please, go post a thread challenging the idea that higher Fruit & Vegetable intake is linked to better health.

That should be fun.

Higher fruit and veggie intake != phytonutrients. You lose. Again.

 

[NewtonTrino]

No, it's you who are trying to confuse the issue, it's a red herring. The only people interested in it are people trying to twist it to some form of criticism. FTC says it's a non-issue. Canadian consumer bureau says it's a non-issue. EU says it's a non-issue. Acadamics say it's a non-issue.

I've already provided links supporting all of that.

You still want to make it an issue.

Seriously, is that all you've got?

I could care less what the government bureaucrats think. Not that I think they agree with you btw. There is something called politics, perhaps you've heard of it.

The bottom line is the whether amway is legal or not is a complete red herring that you keep bringing up. It's COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. What we are trying to ascertain is whether or not INVESTING is a good idea, not whether or not it's legal.

So I ask again how much product goes outside the pyramid? How can you possibly claim this business works if you can't answer that simple question?

That's pretty funny coming from someone whose been, unlike myself, making claims not just about their experience, but about the entire Amway world ... and has never built an Amway business.



rofl! Your full of self-importance aren't you. I don't think your worth the effort of going in to the "intricacies" of my business, why do you think I'd ask someone else to? And why don't YOU go ask someone? There's plenty of diamonds and above accessible around the net. Heck, go to an Amway open plan somewhere.


http://www.amwaywiki.com has plenty of pics. Look under Amagrams esp.

I'm not the one trying to sell an investment. If I was trying to get you to invest in my company I would be giving you a lot more information. The fact that you can't produce anyone who makes money at this is noted.

Amazing though ... the usual "critic" double standard. It's perfectly alright to claim the products are crap and overpriced ... without ever having tried the products and providing no pricing sources ... but providing independent sources judging the products, and links to pricing of the products and their competitors? That's spin.

Uhuh

Product quality is for the most part a personal opinion. I also think it's a red herring because the important part is whether or not there is a MARKET for these products. You've failed to produce a shred of evidence that most of the product flows through the pyramid to real customers. In fact amway is a blatant pyramid scheme where the IBO's are the actual customers. You seem PROUD of the fact that most of the volume in amway is from self use of IBO's. You are also completely fine with the tools scam. Why should we listen to you?

Here's another challenge. Find me someone without a financial interest in amway who recommends it as a business. If you sell books to amway distributors you don't qualify as having no financial interest just for the record. Actually I'm just not going to accept anyone in the motivational industry as a source for this (Trump included btw).

Anyway you won't rise to the challenge because you aren't going to find someone. Cause it's a scam.

scam scam scam scam scam scam scam scam scam.

 

[icerat]

Higher fruit and veggie intake != phytonutrients. You lose. Again.

uh, you might want to go read up some more. Though you are partially correct, some commercial produce has little nutritional value these days.

 

[icerat]

I could care less what the government bureaucrats think. Not that I think they agree with you btw. There is something called politics, perhaps you've heard of it.

Ahh, yes, the great grand Amway Illuminati conspiracy that has twisted goverments and justice systems of legal varieties around the world for 50 years.

So I ask again how much product goes outside the pyramid? How can you possibly claim this business works if you can't answer that simple question?

I've answered the "question" many times before.

(1) It's not a pyramid, it's not even pyramid shaped, yet alone illegal, which is what you are saying when you say "the pyramid". You keep saying legality is irrelevant, and then a few sentences later accuse of it of being an illegal business. Amazing.

(2)There is no way to know how much volume active business building IBOs are selling to customers. We do know that "systems" today generally teach they should have at least 10 and normally make up at least half personal volume. We also know, from TEAM vs Quixtar, that 74% of registered IBOs that place orders after joining are not "participants in the scheme" in any way shape or form. They're "outside the pyramid" to use your false and derogatory term. From BERR vs Amway UK we know that at least 60% of volume comes from that group. The other 40% comes from "the participants in the scheme", but we have no idea how much of that 40% is to clients and how much is self-consumption. Most "systems" these days teach retail sales should be at least half your volume.

Add that up it would appear that at least 60% is to non-participants, and likely more than 80% of volume is from non-participants.

I'm not the one trying to sell an investment. If I was trying to get you to invest in my company I would be giving you a lot more information. The fact that you can't produce anyone who makes money at this is noted.

Amazing the way you can just ignore evidence and pretend things don't exist. Do you do that regularly. I already told you, I made money.

Product quality is for the most part a personal opinion. I also think it's a red herring because the important part is whether or not there is a MARKET for these products.

Yup. And clearly there's a market. Various independent awards and recognitions speak to the quality, and I've shown various price comparisons that speak to competitiveness.

You've failed to produce a shred of evidence that most of the product flows through the pyramid to real customers.

No, I've produced it many times. You just ignore it.

In fact amway is a blatant pyramid scheme where the IBO's are the actual customers.

You're flippin unbelievable. Which part of "the amount of internal consumption in any multi-level compensation business does not determine whether or not the FTC will consider the plan a pyramid scheme" don't you understand? How can you just so willfully keep ignoring hard evidence?

You seem PROUD of the fact that most of the volume in amway is from self use of IBO's.

And now you just make stuff up! Why do soi many Amway critics have to resort to outright dishonesty? I never said any such thing. In fact I believe promoting the "shop for yourself teach others to do the same" strategy that somes group teach is a silly strategy. Nothing illegal about it, just not smart, and in most places against Amway's rules.

You are also completely fine with the tools scam. Why should we listen to you?

I'm not fine with any scam, tool or otherwise.

Here's another challenge. Find me someone without a financial interest in amway who recommends it as a business. If you sell books to amway distributors you don't qualify as having no financial interest just for the record. Actually I'm just not going to accept anyone in the motivational industry as a source for this (Trump included btw).

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good god are you desperate. If anyone writes a book that recommends Amway as a business, then virtually by definition Amway ABOs will buy it ... thus excluding it from consideration!!

Hilarious! Show me anyone who supports Amway ... but anyone who supports Amway doesn't count! hahahahahahhahahahahahah

Anyway you won't rise to the challenge because you aren't going to find someone. Cause it's a scam.

No, because your so desperate you have to create laughable impossible challenges.

NT: Show me someone who has made money!
IR: I made money
NT: That doesn't count! Nobody makes money, so clearly you're not credible!

NT: Show me someone who supports Amway!
IR: Here's one, a highly regarded academic ...
NT: That doesn't count! He supports Amway, so clearly he's not credible!

hahahahha

Give it up NT, you're really scraping the barrel of desperation now. Go find something useful to do with your life.

 

[Skeptic]

Ambots used to be told to "edify your upline"... until one of the higher-ups picked up a dictionary and found out what "edify" actually means.

 

[Arisia]

The high rollers in Amway got that way by building huge downline networks. You can't make the big money in Amway without that. You have to have a big network of people buying the products, because the customers (IBOs or not) usually end up continuing to buy only a couple things in the long term. The products are pretty expensive.

ETA: And of course, the huge downlines will have enough IBOs buying the Amway tools for that to be a big part of the profits for the pinnacle of the upline.