Amway TV ad

[Tex2]

Hey Tex, in many ways, you agree with Scheibeler. He says the tools scam was the worst part. >>>> Hey CynicalSkeptic, so do I.

The difference is he came to realize that DeVos and the corporation was complicit with the tools scam.

The difference is he has joined most of the other critics in fighting both Amway and the LCKs, whereas I have chosen to drive a wedge between them. The UK took a similar position, and Amway threw the LCKs under the bus, just as I predicted.

 

[Tex2]

I think this is actually a technique he's using, consciously or not.
As I mentioned in a previous post, I am a fan of Gavin de Becker's books, and tend to notice with disfavor when people are using manipulative con-men techniques (depending on the circumstances, of course). When I described several techniques that some Amway people used to try to recruit me, Tex2 dismissed them as still-wet neophytes, but here in this thread he's repeating and repeating some of the same techniques. >>>> I am exposing the con-men, and am NOT one of them. LOL

Discounting "No" - The much-discussed conference call. Someone says "No, I don't want to do a conference call." Tex2 always responds "Why are you so afraid of a simple phone call?" This just happened again with CynicalSkeptic. >>>> This is a reasonable question. LOL

Typecasting - Instead of flattering with positive typecasting, Tex2 is trying to bait with negative typecasting all through this thread. For example, right after CynicalSkeptic sarcastically said he was afraid of over-the-phone mind control, Tex2 responds "I figured you to be a fairly weak person, thanks for confirming it for me. LOL >>>> All I did was agree with him, how is that "typecasting?" LOL

In the future, I wouldn't recommend you ask me any other questions, you merely expose your own weakness. LOL"
This is supposed to make CynicalSkeptic want to defend himself, by continuing to engage in the discussion or, ironically, by showing how strong a person he is in Tex2's eyes by acquiescing to the phone call. >>>> I was just giving him advice to protect his sensitive nature. LOL

One of Gavin de Becker's examples is a guy (who looked to be just out of prison) trying to pick up a girl on a plane. He offers her a sip of his whiskey, and when she says no thanks, he said "You're probably too young - I guess you're not independent enough to do something your parents don't want you to do even when they're not around." She retorts "I'm 16!" and decides to have a sip. That's 'discounting no' and the negative form of 'typecasting' rolled into one example. >>>> Poor analogy, all I want to do is communicate more effectively. LOL

When a product/business is really good, there is no need to resort to this kind of tactic. Seeing these techniques again from another Amway person seems to indicate to me that this might be what they all engage in, which for me is a huge negative. >>>> The business, as practiced by the LCKs, is NOT good. That's my point. LOL

(P.S. OMG CynicalSkeptic you might be a WEAK PERSON! You'd better go to a Person Gym and strengthen your Personhood! )

Good advice. LO

 

[Tex2]

Loads of people have quit and made money but spent more. You can write off those airplane trips to seminars as a business expense. How many years can you write-off a loss? Can I write off my computer?

The best thing about Amway is you can drink the kool-aid and unlike the people's temple you get to buy more from your up-line the next day. They have great jokes too.

Oops- forgot those plastic cases the vitamins come in so you can store your computer nick-knacks in. The vitamins cost 500 percent more than they should but gee the up-line needs those extra dollars to skim profits off the top in this pyramid of MLM feel good conference write off your trip super 3 years of tax write-off loses mistake. But those plastic cases are cool; bet they are worth more than the vitamins.

[qimg]http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/VitaminCaseSilentComputer.jpg[/qimg]

You can DIY feel good by reading motivational books for free at the library; Ben Franklin had a good idea, and Amway has over priced products to keep the up-line rich. There must be some balance in the world.

If you speak well and can find a few people not really paying attention during a transitional time in their lives, Amway is your key to using those great jokes and recruiting some cult members who don't have to commit suicide, just buy some overpriced stuff just like they can do at Macy's or any overpriced specialty store and make you money. Those tapes (are they CDs now) are what? tools?

You're largely correct when it comes to the tool scam. That's not how I run my business.

 

[Tex2]

Amway is a crock. Just like any other MLM type business. >>>> Another clueless remark. LOL

Bottom Line:
You are signing up to sell a variety of products. >>>> I thought very little sales occur? LOL
You can recruit people to sell the same products and get a percentage of what they sell. >>>> Ditto. LOL
There's probably some overhead where Amway makes a ton of money from the majority that fail. >>>> No doubt. The same is true regarding the LCKs. LOL

Amway runs on...
"I would rather earn 1% off a 100 people's efforts than 100% of my own efforts."
..which to me, is ********.

I think that was Henry Ford. LOL

 

[NobbyNobbs]

You're a self-described atheist

Tex, could you please explain the relevance of this?

 

[Almo]

You're a self-described atheist

Tex, could you please explain the relevance of this?

I sense a rather large can of worms being opened, and a thread split coming on.

 

[ysabella]

(edited for readability) >>>> I am exposing the con-men, and am NOT one of them. LOL

Then surely you have no need of using con-man techniques.

(regarding "why are you scared of a phone call") >>>> This is a reasonable question. LOL

It's a needlessly personal question, with built-in passive-aggressive insult. I don't consider that "reasonable."

>>>> All I did was agree with him, how is that "typecasting?" LOL
>>>> I was just giving him advice to protect his sensitive nature. LOL

Calling someone you don't know a "weak person" is typecasting because you are claiming to totally understand the person's character, on the basis of very poor information, usually to try to get a reaction. If you had told CynicalSkeptic "Oh, c'mon, I can tell you're smart enough to handle a simple phone call," that would have been just as manipulative, though seemingly more positive.

>>>> Poor analogy, all I want to do is communicate more effectively. LOL

Giving a specific example, as I did, is not an analogy. I don't actually think that you insulting CynicalSkeptic is just like an ex-con trying to pick up a teen on a plane.

>>>> The business, as practiced by the LCKs, is NOT good. That's my point. LOL

If you agree that the manipulative techniques they use reflect badly on Amway, I wonder at you using them so much to try to make a case that Amway isn't a con?

Good advice. LO

Glad you enjoy the sarcasm, even if your fun mostly comes from pretending to misunderstand it.

 

[NewtonTrino]

I sense a rather large can of worms being opened, and a thread split coming on.

I'm actually curious what the ratio of atheists is to theists in scamway. Are atheists less like to get suckered by this cult than the average person?

Anyway it's somewhat relevant because amway itself works very much like a religion.

 

[NewtonTrino]

You're largely correct when it comes to the tool scam. That's not how I run my business.

You've already been quite clear in stating that you don't have a plan for how to run your business. Seat of the pants then eh?

 

[CynicalSkeptic]

I'm actually curious what the ratio of atheists is to theists in scamway. Are atheists less like to get suckered by this cult than the average person?

They are, but at least partly because the amway tools/cult/brainwashing techniques are nominally Christian. From my readings many of the motivational meetings and seminars have opening prayers, and the speakers reference biblical verses. I think an atheist would be turned off by these where a Christian would not.

 

[NewtonTrino]

I honestly don't think they push the christian angle that much these days although I could be wrong. I certainly saw a lot of it in the past though.

 

[Skeptic]

I sense a rather large can of worms being opened, and a thread split coming on.

Nah. It's just a well-known Amway brainwashing technique: good, patriotic, God-fearing people like Amway. Bad, liberal (that is, dirty commie), atheist people hate Amway. But we all know what THEY are like so we can ignore what they say.

Tex isn't interested in discussing atheism or religion, just like if he called you a "liberal" or a "socialist" it doesn't mean he is interested in discussing economic theories. He's just giving the excuse ("atheist!") which makes it "legitimate" for him to say "nah nah nah, can't hear you, nah nah nah" to every criticism of Amway from that person.

 

[sleepy_lioness]

That's interesting Skeptic. I was amused by porkchop and tex trying to outdo each other earlier in the thread with accusations of "Communist!", "Liberal!" and, worst of all, "You're in favour of universal healthcare!!"

Presumably Amway adapted this spiel a bit when it came over to the UK.

 

[Rasmus]

Amway runs on...
"I would rather earn 1% off a 100 people's efforts than 100% of my own efforts."
..which to me, is ********.

Oh, that in itself is probably not a bad idea at all. Even if you can never grow beyond a hundred other people it would make sense.

The problem with amway is that

- the system doesn't make sense. Hardly anybody in a real buisness would ever have a supply chain of anything longer than two. You either buy directly from the producer or you buy wholesale. The consumer of a product will likely be no more than the fourth point down the line. Everybody else who sits in the chain doesn't contribute to the product and leeches money out of the system. It would benefit everybody else in the chain to remove all those superfluous links.

- there isn't one person earning 1% off of one hundred others - that would be straight-foward thing. Amway is a pyramid, though. So you have one person, who takes 1% (if that little it is) from 5 people, and from the 25 people they have recruited, and from the 125 those people have recruited. The five people under him .... well, the majority of people do not get to keep their 99%, do they? (And I am sure Henry Ford put in plenty of hiw own work, anyway ...)

 

[Vermonter]

Well, it looks like Tex is taking a few days off, so don't expect any replies until the weekend. I don't think people are going to change their minds at all on the subject.

From an outsider's point of view a lot of the pro-Amway tactics seem to be targeted at badgering a person until they give in (frequent name-calling and derisive comments towards skeptical parties as well as outright ridicule), and others don't seem to give any kind of definitive numbers or business plan. That doesn't sound like an investment that I would want to get involved with.

I'd rather work with someone who is courteous and polite and is willing to answer questions and provide numbers and sound research, rather than someone who prefers snarky, derisive comments, dodging questions and avoiding the responsibility of producing workable numbers to see if a business plan is sound.

 

[cyborg]

I never said all the money is in the tool scam. You did. The reason I didn't say it is because it's not true.

I think the record on this matter is quite clear: you said 99% of the money was in the tool scam. I never made any attempt at discerning a ratio - I am simply going by your words.

 

[CynicalSkeptic]

others don't seem to give any kind of definitive numbers or business plan.

From the Scheibeler book, that's part of the conditioning.
Rule 1: Never question your upline
Rule 2: Never discuss financial matters downline or crossline

The Kingpins build a perception of everyone in the middle making far more than they do in reality. They go so far as to encourage people to dress the part with fancy clothes, jewelry and cars even if they can't afford it.

The poor sucker who thinks he should be making more than he really is blames himself for his lack of success and is driven to achieve the next level where the real money is. It seems similar to the addict chasing the dragon. If nobody knows the real numbers that whole aspect of the brainwashing falls apart.

 

[icerat]

They are, but at least partly because the amway tools/cult/brainwashing techniques are nominally Christian. From my readings many of the motivational meetings and seminars have opening prayers, and the speakers reference biblical verses. I think an atheist would be turned off by these where a Christian would not.

Since Tex is off for a while, I'll try to have a sensible conversation. For the record, Tex is not a "typical" Amway rep.

Re religion, this was a group specific thing, in the past some groups were overtly religious, and they did indeed turn off people. I don't think any groups do it to the same extent now. Indeed, promoting any particularly religious or political viewpoint at a seminar is explicitly against amway rules. A couple still bend the rules a little.

I'm a liberal athiest and have never felt uncomfortable with the group I work with, which is the largest single Amway organisation in the world.

 

[icerat]

That's interesting Skeptic. I was amused by porkchop and tex trying to outdo each other earlier in the thread with accusations of "Communist!", "Liberal!" and, worst of all, "You're in favour of universal healthcare!!"

Presumably Amway adapted this spiel a bit when it came over to the UK.

It has nothing to do with Amway per se. There's millions of people involved with Amway, including liberal athiests like myself.

Having said that, when Amway opened in Europe in the 70s, it was these right-wing evangelical types who moved first into the markets, and in the UK and France in particular they pretty much wrecked Amway in those countries for a generation. It's now starting to recover, with the aid of the more professional groups that have developed over the decades.

 

[icerat]

From an outsider's point of view a lot of the pro-Amway tactics seem to be targeted at badgering a person until they give in (frequent name-calling and derisive comments towards skeptical parties as well as outright ridicule), and others don't seem to give any kind of definitive numbers or business plan. That doesn't sound like an investment that I would want to get involved with.

I agree 100%. There's a reason why Tex's upline wants nothing to do with him, and if I recall correctly his downline either quit or transferred to another group. This isn't "pro-Amway tactics". It's Tex-tactics. He reported on his blog that Amway has actually warned him he'll have his contract terminated if he doesn't improve his online behaviour.

I'd rather work with someone who is courteous and polite and is willing to answer questions and provide numbers and sound research, rather than someone who prefers snarky, derisive comments, dodging questions and avoiding the responsibility of producing workable numbers to see if a business plan is sound.

Who wouldn't? And yes, we do business plans.